Does man have a voluntary will?

[skypair]

I used to be a "free will" theologist before I observed all the opinions and Scriptural support from all sides. There are points from all sides that I agree with and disagree with. I have concluded that I don't know where I stand and wonder if there is some middle ground between Calvinism and "free will" theology.

Dragon,

There is a "middle ground." Calvinism says that God has determined everything -- much like in Greek mythology where Oedipus made choices that all led to him killing his father and marrying his mother as the gods has predicted. Oedipus only thought that he was in control according to the fable. It was really fate that determined his destiny -- much like in Calvinism.

Free will takes the opposite view. Oedipus was fiction. Neither God not the gods is deterministic.

So where Calvin and free will might well meet is regarding salvation. Calvinists say that God does everything in salvation deciding who beforehand and then just "dropping it all in their lap" at some time during their lives.

Free will says that there is one thing God does NOT give -- belief. Yes, God, upon our belief, does everything giving us faith, eternal life, indwelling Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, etc. But we must believe.

You won't see any Calvinists who claim to be saved and not believe. They ought to look at it like Oedipus then --- that their faith was not fate. It hinged upon their belief.

Free will has no problem with the Calvinist fact that we are given faith. But faith does NOT equal belief. With faith there is proof (Heb 12:1) -- with belief there is none.

Most Calvinists came to Christ (if the have) the same way as free willers. The problem is that they began to believe in Calvinist dogma. Dogma are beliefs that have no scriptural proof but that the religion (like the Reform Church or Catholic Church) requires you to accept as a member.

Let's dispense with the dogma (did you know that "Systematic Theology" was originally called "Reform Dogma" until its concepts became offensive to many Christians?). So let's not center our discussion around dogma and we will by-and-by come to the right conclusions.

Calvinism is just a "rehash" of Greek mythology that comes down on the side of fate -- we have no control so why even try. You will find that fatalism expressed in their evangelism (Evengelism takes a "nose dive" wherever the dogma of fate is introduced into religion), in their praying (Sproul says that God doesn't change His mind in answer to your prayers), etc.

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

Dragon,

Calvinists say that God does everything in salvation deciding who beforehand and then just "dropping it all in their lap" at some time during their lives.

skypair

Interesting observation, that. And would you mind, pray, showing the Calvinists on this board the Scriptures that they quote that made you come to that conclusion about their "dogma" ?

What do you say, for example, to the following Scripture ?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:....

Is Jesus Christ being Calvinistic, or dogmatic ?

 

[skypair]

Interesting observation, that. And would you mind, pray, showing the Calvinists on this board the Scriptures that they quote that made you come to that conclusion about their "dogma" ?

Dogma, by defintion, doesn't have/require scriptural proof.

That doesn't keep them from citing incidental passages that can be misunderstood their way. Primary among them is Rom 8:29 which some (Sproul) call "the Golden Chain of Salvation." But in it, they equate "foreknowledge" with "predestination." That is, their dogma says that God foreknew because He forechose whom He would know. This is a classic case of misconstruing scripture, parsing words (2Tim 2:14), and using it as proof. "Foreknow," much to their displeasure, means what it says -- to know beforehand, to foresee.

"Dropping it all in their laps" is the "calling" mentioned in 8:30. At a time certain, Calvinists agree that God touches them.

What do you say, for example, to the following Scripture ?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:....

God "draws" ALL men. That's what I get. It's the same thing as Rom 1 -- ALL men are given a glimpse of God to which they are expected to respond.

What do you make of this verse: "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL men to Me." John 12:32

skypair

 

[MB]

Ok, MB, you misunderstand me. I have said all along that we make choices. It is God's providence that causes us to make the choices we make. I agree we make choices, but we will always choose in a manner that will be consistent with God's decreed will.

We can agree on that, but we disagree as to what we believe that decreed will is. I believe it to be obvious from scripture that man is not saved in order to believe but must believe in order to be saved. I believe that scripture backs up what I believe.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Your problem with Paul is a serious problem. We believe that Paul was inspired by God to write all of what he wrote. The words of Paul are God's words.

I see no problems with Paul I believe what he wrote is from God as well.
Like Peter said; The things Paul speaks about in his epistles are hard to understand.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
I don't wrestle with what Paul said. I let the scriptures them selves explain it to me. If one explanation in scripture isn't clear, I look until I find one that is. Most of what I believe is repeated several times in scripture by several witnesses. Paul is just one witness although what he wrote is of God I agree. The Bible still says that a matter is established by two or three witnesses so according to the majority of scripture it self is what I look for. The witness of the other apostles are just as important as Pauls.

There are many more verses of scripture, from Jesus Himself, which support my view. Many more from other sources as well.... including the OT. They have been posted so many times for so many people such as yourself.... that I feel it would be beating a dead horse. You can look up the debates on the board.

I've read all those scriptures and I disagree. You've showed many scriptures. According to what they say in context I don't believe they back up Calvinism.

Luke spoke of predestination by inspiration of God, not because of Paul's influence upon him. Paul spoke of predestination and election because of God's inspiration. Acts has more than just the word predestination. It says all who were appointed to eternal life believed. It mentions that God opened people's hearts to believe.

God does open peoples hearts RB, I never denied that. Don't you think all things are possible with God? If they are.Then God can do anything. God isn't limited by our expectations of Him. Opening our hearts isn't regeneration. It's being convinced. There is no process that God has to go through in order to accomplish a thing. God is God there is no higher authority. What he says will be, will be, and that's all there is to it

I used to be just like you. I had been taught free will my whole life. The doctrines of sovereign grace went against all I had ever been taught. The thing is that when I came to realize the truth, it set me free. I now trust Jesus rather than my own ability. The bible has come alive, and you can not find a part that does not speak of God's sovereignty.

You believe I trust in my own ability not because of what I have told you but because you wish to believe it. I have already told you that Salvation is all of God and have explained it to you and you still don't see it. Our discussion on these matters have taught me that in spite of how hard I try to convince you. You will reject it.
Sovereignty is not defined as controller but as authority. God is Sovereign.

If you come to understand the doctrines of sovereign grace or not, it will not mean the difference of being saved or lost. God will use you with your theological understanding for His purposes. This is a debate board. These debates should sharpen our iron. If not, we should not be here.

I realize that our ISM's will not or, do not save us. Staying sharp is why I decided to be involved in a discussion. I don't consider it a contest of debate, but a discussion. A contest has it's rewards I suppose though my idea of winning isn't glory but knowledge. If we both learn from the experience then we have both won.

There are few here that I have to ignore. You are not one of them. I appreciate your kind tone with me. I hope I never "sound" like I'm being indifferent with you. Forgive me if I have.

Thank you RB. No problem
MB

 

[skypair]

Reformbliever

Huh?? If you will permit me to ask, how did you learn that God chose you??

skypair

Apparently you are not "... ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" 1Pet 3:15. Let me ask then -- is it "meekness" that is the issue?? or is it the salvation itself??

skypair

 

[Allan]

[/COLOR]

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:.... ?

That man if left to himself will never seek out God. That is why God came to man.
And of Man, ONLY those who received Him, it was to them He gave the right to be called the Children of God.

 

[Allan]

It ( Christ's work on the cross ) was indeed finished and His soul was satisfied in contemplation of that fact .

This whole mess of saying the Lord knew what people would decide is so lame . The Lord determines where we live , and even appoints the day and manner of our death . Don't you folks realize He determines where and when we are saved ? Man remains central to too many professing Christians and God is not given the glory rightly due to Him . He mediates the means whereby we come to a saving knowledge of Himself .

All of us here ( hopefully ) agree that everyone whose name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the Lord will be brought to glory and no one else . Those are the ones He bought with His own blood . He purchased us . He did not purchase anyone else . He determined every detail that led to our salvation . Nothing was left to chance . The Lord does not depend on our wills -- but it has been by His will alone that we are born again .

And yet you become so flustered when the vast majority of believers don't agree with your interpretations through the Calvinstic bent. You don't grasp that God determinded us to teach and preach that which He has shown us. We are as God decreed us to be.
And yet you want to change the very mind of God that determind us to be and know what we espouse (that being a non-calvinistic view point)

 

[Jeep Dragon]

This sound Calvinistic:

(Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(Mat 25:32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(Mat 25:33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
(Mat 25:34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

This sounds Calvinistic:

(Joh 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
(Joh 6:36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
(Joh 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(Joh 6:38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
(Joh 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
(Joh 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:41) The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
(Joh 6:42) And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
(Joh 6:43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
(Joh 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(Joh 6:46) Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(Joh 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

(Joh 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
(Joh 17:2) As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
(Joh 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What baffles me is the fact that I have never (I repeat NEVER) heard these passages read or quoted by any speaker in any church I have been in. But the same people who have never quoted these passages or any passages that sound similar have quoted "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God..." multiple times! All of the above passages are what Jesus Himself said!

I don't consider myself a Calvinist nor a "free-will" theologian. I find myself believing that both are true in a completely illogical and unexplainable fashion.

(Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
(Gen 3:23) Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

I struggle with the idea that man knows both good and evil. This is the one idea that makes "Total depravity" not make any sense to me. If man knows good and evil, doesn't that mean he will do both? Since man does evil and by doing evil makes him imperfect, he is therefore condemned to hell. If the simple act of believing in Jesus is a choice ("good") it is possible for some people to do this "good" because they know "good." Being that total perfection is required for eternal life, couldn't God have done all the perfect work to make salvation into a simple one-time choice that anyone knowing good and evil has the capability to make such a choice. Most people when they get saved don't do so because they love God with all their hearts and want to live righteously, they just realize that God will punnish them for sinning and if He offers a free gift to them, why not take it? What is the big deal with believing/calling on the NAME of Jesus in association with salvation if the believing/calling has nothing to do with accepting the gift but rather a result of already having the gift?

(Mat 23:33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
(Mat 23:34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
(Mat 23:35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
(Mat 23:36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
(Mat 23:37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(Mat 23:38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
(Mat 23:39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Why would Jesus groan over Jerusalem and claim that He would often have gathered them to Himself, but they would not? If Jesus came not to do His own will, but that of the Father's, why would he even have a "heart" for the eternally condemned? It seems as if there is some sort of desire by Jesus to accept what has chosen to reject Him.

(Mar 10:20) And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
(Mar 10:21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
(Mar 10:22) And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
(Mar 10:23) And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Assuming that the rich, young ruler never got saved, what is meant by Jesus loving him? If God predestined him to hell, doesn't that mean that God hates him?

Although I don't categorize my theology, I do believe that if all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, then all of it is important to study. Preachers should preach all Scripture even when they can't explain the definition in their own theological beliefs. If the passages convice their congregation to become Calvinists/"free-will" theologists, then maybe that is the unquenched will of the Holy Spirit not held back by the bias of the preacher.

 

[Jeep Dragon]

Truth and motives

Why do people think that logical motives must exist to get people to obey God's commandments?
Examples:
(Some lordship salvationists/kingdom exclusionists): "Why would anyone obey God if they can live however they want to and still go to heaven without God's Judgment?"

(Some free-will theologists): "If God has predetermined some to go to heaven and others to go to hell, why bother sharing my faith?"

(Some mandatory tithers): "If there is no required tithe, how do you expect the church to be financed and the Pastor to live?"

Why do we think that there has to be an immediate and harsh punnishment for not following something in order for it to occur correctly? If something is truth, let it be taught liberally even if it hurts one's logic or business model.

Blessed is the man who knows that he is forever saved yet obeys God out of pure love for Him!

Blessed is the man who believes that God has chosen all from the foundations of the world, yet still shares his faith!

Blessed is the man who believes in no fixed requirements for giving yet gives out of the abundance of his heart out of love for God!

 

[pinoybaptist]

I struggle with the idea that man knows both good and evil. This is the one idea that makes "Total depravity" not make any sense to me.

The struggle should cease if you remember that Adam and Eve were not totally depraved, and their descendants (including you and me), until after they broke God's rule, therefore God said: "Behold, the man is become....."

 

[Allan]

What baffles me is the fact that I have never (I repeat NEVER) heard these passages read or quoted by any speaker in any church I have been in. But the same people who have never quoted these passages or any passages that sound similar have quoted "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God..." multiple times! All of the above passages are what Jesus Himself said!

You aught to come to my church. I preach verse for verse and have taught on such topics before. It's not calvinistic, for it is of those whom He foreknew. Everyone, both Cal and Non-Cal (except the open theist) alike believe God Knows every person that is His. I'm not speaking for one veiw or another I'm saying we both believe the immutable truths we just differ on some of the mechanics within those same truths.

I don't consider myself a Calvinist nor a "free-will" theologian. I find myself believing that both are true in a completely illogical and unexplainable fashion.

Neither do I. Welcome to the club! We can not know the fulness of the mind of God, only that which God reveals in scripture. When we venture to trying do determind How God thought it in the sequence He thought and what in that sequence He actaully Knew or saw... We are no longer in the Biblical arena but in the philosophical one.

I struggle with the idea that man knows both good and evil. This is the one idea that makes "Total depravity" not make any sense to me. If man knows good and evil, doesn't that mean he will do both? Since man does evil and by doing evil makes him imperfect, he is therefore condemned to hell. If the simple act of believing in Jesus is a choice ("good") it is possible for some people to do this "good" because they know "good." Being that total perfection is required for eternal life, couldn't God have done all the perfect work to make salvation into a simple one-time choice that anyone knowing good and evil has the capability to make such a choice. Most people when they get saved don't do so because they love God with all their hearts and want to live righteously, they just realize that God will punnish them for sinning and if He offers a free gift to them, why not take it? What is the big deal with believing/calling on the NAME of Jesus in association with salvation if the believing/calling has nothing to do with accepting the gift but rather a result of already having the gift?

Yes man can do both. Scripture says our righteousness (good) is like filthy rags. Scripture NEVER says man can not do good, but that we can not do any salvic good (good that can be used toward salvation - flawless good). Scripture teach consistantly that people go to Hell because they rejected God NOT that God predetermind them to go there. As I said scriptures are consistant that we are judged on accepting or rejecting truths that God reveals to us. This is why scripture tells us from the mouth of Jesus. Beleive on me, but if you will not believe me then believe the works I do. In other words If you think I may be lieing about who I am just look at my works and believe them!
The big deal is people who get saved for fire insurance or a get of jail (punishment) free card are doing so for their own selfish and lust filled reason. It is all about them and not God. We are saved but it is because of the sake of Christ not our own. If a person is trying to escape punishment then they never understood what true salvation is. Salvation isn't punishment evasion. It is renewal unto God whom we have strayed so far from. I have never met a person who has just come to Christ say (to the effect) Glad I got out of that mess. They have usually are amazed that God hadn't killed then already. And are equally amzed and satified deep within that God would even consider sending such grace to them. It is the 'miss the judgment" mentality that usually goes off and lives like the devil cause now their saved. Well they show who they are by their the fruits they bear.

Why would Jesus groan over Jerusalem and claim that He would often have gathered them to Himself, but they would not? If Jesus came not to do His own will, but that of the Father's, why would he even have a "heart" for the eternally condemned? It seems as if there is some sort of desire by Jesus to accept what has chosen to reject Him.

Because He loves them. Scripture tells us that God is not threw with the Jews yet and that they will once again as a nation come back to Him but now is the time of the Gentiles (Rom 9, 10 and 11 - These deals with Israel as a Nation past -9-, thier present time -10-, and future -11-)

Assuming that the rich, young ruler never got saved, what is meant by Jesus loving him? If God predestined him to hell, doesn't that mean that God hates him?

It is a good question and one that is answered by the text. It means Jesus loved him. But there will come a day where because they rejected His love, they will be judged without it. Jesus did not come to judge but to seek and save.

Although I don't categorize my theology, I do believe that if all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, then all of it is important to study. Preachers should preach all Scripture even when they can't explain the definition in their own theological beliefs. If the passages convice their congregation to become Calvinists/"free-will" theologists, then maybe that is the unquenched will of the Holy Spirit not held back by the bias of the preacher.

I agree. We as preachers need to stop cherry picking and start once again preaching as scripture details... line upon line, and precept upon precept...
We are to preach not to sound spiritual but to make those under our preaching spiritual giants for God. Just as He must increase I must decrease... so that motto aught to be for every pastor and teacher. They must increase and I must decrease... We are to make disciples who can study to show themselves approved so they in turn can make disciples to do the same. As an old Evangelist Freddie Gage used to say. We are born (agian) to reproduce!

 

[skypair]

Dragon,

I don't consider myself a Calvinist nor a "free-will" theologian. I find myself believing that both are true in a completely illogical and unexplainable fashion.

You sound more free will to me with some misunderstandings about Calvinism. That's good.

Let's see if we can look at those passages. Mt 25: I HAVE heard it in church. It sounds Calvinist since it omits the "foreknowledge clause" of God (which many passages do). Christ/Paul described the process at least once (Rom 8:29-30) -- if Paul is not reiterating the "process" (Calvinists call it "The Golden Chain of Salvation") elsewhere, it is because that is not his focus. Here. for example, Christ is NOT talking about how we are saved -- he is talking about the His postrib judgment.

John 6: Jesus is talking to OT-types, right? First He compares Himself to manna that came from heaven. They would have known what manna was for. Then He says none come to me unless the Father draw them. Think about this, Dragon --- how are the OT saints going to come to Christ being they are dead? God has to resurrect them, "draw" them, resusitated by the Spirit, out of the ground, right? Which is what Job 14:2-24, 19:25-28, Psa 50:3-5, Isa 26:19-21, Dan 12:2, 12:11-13, etal. are talking about. And yes, it is also true of NT and the manner is the same - by the Holy Spirit.

John 17: "give life to as many as thou hast given Him" sounds Calvinist again, right? But again we look to the OT as well and see that God has to deliver them to life again before they will know Christ!

Dragon, most Calvinists are a "one covenant" people -- "Covenant Theologists." They don't recognize separate OT covenants with Abraham, David, etc. They beleive that everyone comes to Christ as if He were already come from the beginning. Thus, they have huge confusion considering when and how the OT saints come to Christ.

Good and evil: Which did Adam already know? Good, right? God didn't make him ignorant of good so that he would only know evil. God even said, "Now they will be like us knowing GOOD and evil." Thus, another error of Calvinism is exposed.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Dragon,

I don't consider myself a Calvinist nor a "free-will" theologian. I find myself believing that both are true in a completely illogical and unexplainable fashion.

You sound more free will to me with some misunderstandings about Calvinism. That's good.

Let's see if we can look at those passages. Mt 25: I HAVE heard it in church. It sounds Calvinist since it speaks of "efore the foundations of earth" -- but it omits the "foreknowledge clause" of God (which many passages do). Christ/Paul described the salvation process at least once (Rom 8:29-30). If Paul, etc. do not reiterate the "process" (Calvinists call it "The Golden Chain of Salvation") elsewhere, it is because that is not his focus. Here. for example, Christ is NOT talking about how we are saved -- he is talking about the His postrib judgment.

John 6: Jesus is talking to OT-types, right? First He compares Himself to manna that came from heaven. They would have known what manna was for. Then He says none come to me unless the Father draw them. Think about this, Dragon --- how are the OT saints going to come to Christ being they are dead? God has to resurrect them, "draw" them, resusitated by the Spirit, out of the ground, right? Which is what Job 14:2-24, 19:25-28, Psa 50:3-5, Isa 26:19-21, Dan 12:2, 12:11-13, etal. are talking about. And yes, it is also true of NT and the manner is the same - by the Holy Spirit.

John 17: "give life to as many as thou hast given Him" sounds Calvinist again, right? But again we look to the OT as well and see that God has to deliver them to life again before they will know Christ!

Dragon, most Calvinists are a "one covenant" people -- "Covenant Theologists." They don't recognize separate OT covenants with Abraham, David, etc. They beleive that everyone comes to Christ as if He were already come from the beginning. Thus, they have huge confusion considering when and how the OT saints come to Christ.

Good and evil: Which did Adam already know? Good, right? God didn't make him ignorant of good so that he would only know evil. God even said, "Now they will be like us knowing GOOD and evil." Thus, another error of Calvinism is exposed.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Dragon,

Assuming that the rich, young ruler never got saved, what is meant by Jesus loving him? If God predestined him to hell, doesn't that mean that God hates him?

That's the thrust of the question that Dave Hunt asks in his book What Love is This?

Although I don't categorize my theology, I do believe that if all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, then all of it is important to study. Preachers should preach all Scripture even when they can't explain the definition in their own theological beliefs.

Amen! And one thing Calvinists can't seem to preach about is eshatology. See, they got church and Israel mixed together but the Bible doesn't confuse them. So instead, Calvinists/Reformers simply say (as they often do about theology), "It is not for us to know the hidden wisdom of God."

R.C. Sproul even says this regarding salvation! "We can't know why God chose whom He chose to salvation." Then how can you preach that Calvinism knows it's "elect" are chosen at all??! I've tried twice to ask Reformbeliever this but, apparently he has no testimony regarding being chosen either.

skypair

 

[Allan]

R.C. Sproul even says this regarding salvation! "We can't know why God chose whom He chose to salvation." Then how can you preach that Calvinism knows it's "elect" are chosen at all??! I've tried twice to ask Reformbeliever this but, apparently he has no testimony regarding being chosen either.

Whoa! Hold on there and back it up two steps and a hair pin.

I know your are speaking about Reformed testimony ONLY in regard to answering your question and NOT about His salvation.

I have spoken with him quite bit and gotten to know him a bit better through our discussions. So I would stand tooth and nail to any that may question his salvation testimony.

They don't know who the elect are - as in "quick go catch that guy, he's one of us" They know they are saved same as you and I. Because they have faith and believe with the evedence of a life changed giving testimony to that New nature God has given us ALL.

I just want to be straight here Skypair, you WERE only speaking of his answer concerning you question and not his salvation testimony, right??

 

[reformedbeliever]

Whoa! Hold on there and back it up two steps and a hair pin.

I know your are speaking about Reformed testimony ONLY in regard to answering your question and NOT about His salvation.

I have spoken with him quite bit and gotten to know him a bit better through our discussions. So I would stand tooth and nail to any that may question his salvation testimony.

They don't know who the elect are - as in "quick go catch that guy, he's one of us" They know they are saved same as you and I. Because they have faith and believe with the evedence of a life changed giving testimony to that New nature God has given us ALL.

I just want to be straight here Skypair, you WERE only speaking of his answer concerning you question and not his salvation testimony, right??

Thank you for your defense brother. Yes, he has questioned my salvation more than once. That is why I have had to ignore him. I only have two on ignore, and he is one of them. Thanks again.

 

[skypair]

Whoa! Hold on there and back it up two steps and a hair pin.

I just want to be straight here Skypair, you WERE only speaking of his answer concerning you question and not his salvation testimony, right??

I know NOTHING about his personal salvation testimony. I know what he wrote in 2 books I have read -- "Chosen by God" and another about prayer. He specifically he does not know why God chooses who He does. So how can he know he is saved. He says he doesn't know why God chose Him. Maybe God didn't, right?

To advance the error, he says God doesn't "change His mind." That is, prayer doesn't change God. Well, I'd have to ask how he could be totally depraved one day and saved the next. Was Sproul not (in eternity past when God "foreknew" or presently when God "called," take your pick) eternally condemned and the next moment eternally saved?

It's nice you can speak with him. I hope you can talk some sense into him.

skypair

P.S. Don't mind reformb -- he doesn't "ignore," he just can't answer. Maybe he'll tell you his testimony of how he knows he is "chosen" of God.

 

[rstrats]

skypair,

re: "Free will says that there is one thing God does NOT give -- belief. Yes, God, upon our belief, does everything giving us faith, eternal life, indwelling Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, etc. But we must believe. "

But since a person cannot consciously CHOSE to believe things, what is the person to do?

 

[MB]

Hi rstrats;

skypair,

re: "Free will says that there is one thing God does NOT give -- belief. Yes, God, upon our belief, does everything giving us faith, eternal life, indwelling Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, etc. But we must believe. "

But since a person cannot consciously CHOSE to believe things, what is the person to do?

I believe that man has a voluntary will though not entirely free. Man does have restrictions as to what they can do and can't. We can't fly no matter how willing we may be but, we can be willing to. I don't believe man just up and seeks God out to be saved. Just the same I don't believe man to be disabled by anything other than the full knowledge of Jesus Christ. Man must first be convinced and that's up to the Holy Spirit.
Scripture says that it is of faith that it might be by grace.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
This faith doesn't save us because we are not saved by our own righteousness. Never the less with out man first believing, he isn't saved. He must have this initial faith in order to put on the righteousness of Christ. It is in this righteousness of Christ that we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. This is where we put on the new man.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Notice we put it on. If we do not, then we can't be saved. This putting on the righteousness of Christ is when we are regenerated and it is a voluntary action.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The result of all this is we are saved by the faith of Christ and not of our selves. There is one thing for sure and that is we are not saved against our will therefore we must be willing to be saved.

Election is not particular but everyone is included in the reason Christ gave His life. He died for the world and "who so ever" is anyone who becomes convinced of Christ being the Son of God.
Nothing man does saves him but there are a lot of things man can do to keep from being saved.

Our initial faith in Christ is a gift. and It's the work of God that man has this initial faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The hearing of the word of God to begin with is a work of God. Our being convinced of Christ as the Son of God is a work of God. Our putting on the righteousness of Christ is a work of God because he first convinced us and gave us the faith to believe we could put it on. We only receive and Yes we can choose not to receive it at any time during the process. Other wise it would be a forced Salvation and there simply is no such thing.
MB

 

[skypair]

skypair,

re: "Free will says that there is one thing God does NOT give -- belief. Yes, God, upon our belief, does everything giving us faith, eternal life, indwelling Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, etc. But we must believe. "

But since a person cannot consciously CHOSE to believe things, what is the person to do?

rstrats,

MB has a pretty good answer, if long. We CAN consciously choose, rstrats. We have the "knowledge of good and evil" -- " I offer thee life and death; choose life" as God told Abraham.

There's a passage that I am preparing to start a thread on, Col 1:13 -- "Who [God] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:..."

Calvinists are constantly quoting Jesus (paraphrase): "all that the Father hath given me I receive and none will I cast out." This, as if God chose them and gave them to Christ. But in Col 1:13 we detect (from 1:5-6) that God JUSTIFIED us when we believed the gospel and then "translated" us into Christ's kingdom to be SANCTIFIED therein.

"Called" by the gospel (OT and NT) -- JUSTIFIED by God (OT, too) -- SANCTIFIED by Christ (church ONLY so far -- OT "translated" into Christ's MILLENIAL kingdom for sanctification.).

What do you see as precluding us from "consciously choosing?"

skypair