Does 'Non-Calvinisitic' theology really exalt the view of man?

[Skandelon]

MANY refuse to even acknowledge that God needs to even provide ANY additional Grace

Many? Really? I've yet to hear of just one.

 

[Skandelon]

Straw men always lead to awful conclusions. The idea that non-Calvinists exalt men is one of them.

Another straw man is that Calvinists negate man's responsibility. Both are wrong. Believing either, just leads to talking at each other and tryng to win debating points.

I agree. And I do acknowledge that Calvinists claim men are responsible. However, I do take issue with that claim in light of their overall position. To be "responsible" connotes the idea of being "response - able" (being able to respond), and the doctrine of Total Inability appears to remove that ability.

 

[JesusFan]

Many? Really? I've yet to hear of just one.

How about you and DHK?

Unless I misunderstand your positions, dont both of you hold than man can respond still to the Gospel , have act of faith apart from ANY extra work of God such as irresisitable/prevenient grace from God?

 

[webdog]

How about you and DHK?

Unless I misunderstand your positions, dont both of you hold than man can respond still to the Gospel , have act of faith apart from ANY extra work of God such as irresisitable/prevenient grace from God?

You have been told repeatedly by each of them what you state is not true! This is paramount to lying! Repent!

 

[Skandelon]

How about you and DHK?

Unless I misunderstand your positions, dont both of you hold than man can respond still to the Gospel

I can't speak for DHK, but I've explained NUMEROUS times that the gospel IS A work of divine GRACE in and of itself. The Holy Spirit wrought it, preserved it, and carries it to all the world. The gospel IS GOD'S MEANS OF GRACE because it is the "power of God unto salvation," by which God makes his appeal to be reconciled.

 

[JesusFan]

I can't speak for DHK, but I've explained NUMEROUS times that the gospel IS A work of divine GRACE in and of itself. The Holy Spirit wrought it, preserved it, and carries it to all the world. The gospel IS GOD'S MEANS OF GRACE because it is the "power of God unto salvation," by which God makes his appeal to be reconciled.[/QUOTE

]

So you believe that the Gospel itself is the grace of God applying towards the person, and its up to them to accept/reject it?

 

[matt wade]

Great OP! Well thought out and clearly demonstrates the issue at hand. It's too bad that the Calvinists around here can only resort to childish remarks in return.

 

[Skandelon]

So you believe that the Gospel itself is the grace of God applying towards the person

That would be one way to say it, yes. Some might say God's grace is applied through the preaching of the Word. Which connotes the idea that God's grace (extra inward working) is applied when someone hears the gospel. I personally don't see such distinctions being necessary since the gospel is clearly a gracious work of God and any effect it has should be credited to Him and Him alone.

 

[Skandelon]

Great OP! Well thought out and clearly demonstrates the issue at hand.

Thank you. Very kind of you to say so. :thumbs:

 

[Crabtownboy]

I agree with the OP. The non-Calvinist view shows a loving God, a loving parent, if you will, who loves his children enough to allow them to make choices.

In the Calvinist view there is no glory to God in a person being a good Christian and in doing that which is good as he/she was predestined to do so.

In the non-Calvinist there is glory to God because that child of his chooses to glorify his heavenly Father by being a good Christian and doing that which is good.

Is there any generosity if you giving me a gift if I force you to give me the gift? I do not think so.

There is generosity in a gift given by the givers own freewill.

 

[12strings]

I'd be interested to hear what a non-cal prays for when you pray for someone you know to come to Christ. Do you pray that God would save them, or simply that God would put people in their life to share the gospel with them and situations that will point them toward him?

 

[JesusFan]

You have been told repeatedly by each of them what you state is not true! This is paramount to lying! Repent!

Both affirm that the Gospel ALONE is able to be used by God to save sinners, that it has power in it to do that!

neither adhere to us being "spiritually deasd' and needing external Grace applied by god along with the Gospel message...

Why am i Lying?

 

[Crabtownboy]

I'd be interested to hear what a non-cal prays for when you pray for someone you know to come to Christ. Do you pray that God would save them, or simply that God would put people in their life to share the gospel with them and situations that will point them toward him?

All of the above.

It is God who saves when they turn and choose Him through their own freewill.

 

[Robert Snow]

Calvinist tend to promote Calvinism more than they do God or God's glory.

If someone poses a disagreement with a Calvinist here, they are inundated with confessions, creeds and the opinions of long dead writers or preachers. Of course bible verses are abundant, but the focus is on what other Calvinists say rather than how a particular verse fits in with the totality of scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=Robert Snow;1728136]Calvinist tend to promote Calvinism more than they do God or God's glory.

Strange, because DoG exault God, as the principles of Calvinism show us that it ALL due to the Grace of God in the Cross, to His Glory!

If someone poses a disagreement with a Calvinist here, they are inundated with confessions, creeds and the opinions of long dead writers or preachers. Of course bible verses are abundant, but the focus is on what other Calvinists say rather than how a particular verse fits in with the totality of scripture.

[/QUOTE]

Actually, we tend to use the Bible to support the doctrines of Calvinism in Sotierology, as we find them all contained in word of God!

And we quote famous theologians and pastors here on the BB a lot of times as frankly, the "more scholarly" ones tend to be believers in the DoG!

 

[12strings]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12strings
I'd be interested to hear what a non-cal prays for when you pray for someone you know to come to Christ. Do you pray that God would save them, or simply that God would put people in their life to share the gospel with them and situations that will point them toward him?

All of the above.
It is God who saves when they turn and choose Him through their own freewill.

-So to be clear, you would pray that God actually change their attitude toward the Gospel from one of resistance to one of acceptance? Because if God did that, he would be overriding their free will.
...So if I understand it right, an Arminian should logically pray something like. "God, please use people and circumstances and your word to point this person to their need for the Gospel, but I know you have given him free will and have chosen not to override that."
...whereas a Calvinist could pray something like, "God, get him! He hates you right now, but I know you can break his will and turn him right around so he loves you and loves the cross.

 

[JesusFan]

-So to be clear, you would pray that God actually change their attitude toward the Gospel from one of resistance to one of acceptance? Because if God did that, he would be overriding their free will.
...

So if I understand it right, an Arminian should logically pray something like. "God, please use people and circumstances and your word to point this person to their need for the Gospel, but I know you have given him free will and have chosen not to override that."

.

No real need to pray though, as the Gospel message has the power to save souls, and its up to the person to receive Christ and be saved, or reject and stay lost.... per Armininian theology



..

whereas a Calvinist could pray something like, "God, get him! He hates you right now, but I know you can break his will and turn him right around so he loves you and loves the cross.

probably more like "father, use your HS to open his mind and heart to receive jesus now, If he is one of the chosen of God"

 

[Winman]

What a non-Cal can pray is that God would continue to be patient and longsuffering toward a rebellious person and not give them up as is written in Romans 1, that God would continue to call and exert powerful influence on that person.

 

[quantumfaith]

I'd be interested to hear what a non-cal prays for when you pray for someone you know to come to Christ. Do you pray that God would save them, or simply that God would put people in their life to share the gospel with them and situations that will point them toward him?

Personally I pray that God might use my life and words to impact and or influence someone to desire to know more about this "God thing". I am a college educator (mathematics) as I lecture on certain topics it gives me and opportunity to "insert" thoughts and consideration about the God we worship, not "theology" mind you, but implications that the world around us screams the existence of a creator.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

...whereas a Calvinist could pray something like, "God, get him! He hates you right now, but I know you can break his will and turn him right around so he loves you and loves the cross.

Laughable.....simply laughable:laugh: