Does 'Non-Calvinisitic' theology really exalt the view of man?

[Winman]

Winman,
thanks for posting that info on the EO.I see how this error has been around since the beginning. Romans 3:23 all sinned at one point in time.

we also commit our own sins all by ourselves also.

I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 3:23. As Barnes himself asked (the statement bolded in red), how can man sin in any way except that each individual commits his own sin?

Though some here disagree, God clearly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, or vice versa, in Ezekiel 18:20. God says men shall die for their own sin (2 Chr 25:4)

Some here argue this applies to civil law. I would simply ask, if it is unjust to take a man's temporal life for his father's sin which he did not personally commit, how monstrous is it to take a man's eternal life for a sin his father committed, but which he did not personally commit?

Besides contradicting the word of God, this teaching is immediately offensive to all men. Even sinful man knows it is wicked to execute someone for a sin he did not commit.

 

[Skandelon]

Though a bad comparison to to begin with, this is just some more of the the question Paul dealt with in Romans 9. You prove Paul to be a prophet. He predicted that you would ask "Why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will?" And you ask that over and over and over, because you cannot accept Paul's answer.

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Actually, if you read the context the person asking that question is the hardened Jew (a rebellious Jew that God held out his hand to all day long. Rm. 10:21), not the non-elect reprobate born in a hopeless condition destined to hell, as you wrongly presume upon the text.

 

[Aaron]

Nonsense. It's any of Paul's readers. It's a natural question coming from a carnal frame of reference.

 

[preacher4truth]

Nonsense. It's any of Paul's readers. It's a natural question coming from a carnal frame of reference.

Amen! :thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

Nonsense. It's any of Paul's readers. It's a natural question coming from a carnal frame of reference.

It is a carnal frame of reference, yes, but not the one you have imposed on the text. It is the carnal view of a rebellious man who has been blinded in his rebellion to accomplish a redemptive purpose.

 

[JesusFan]

It is a carnal frame of reference, yes, but not the one you have imposed on the text. It is the carnal view of a rebellious man who has been blinded in his rebellion to accomplish a redemptive purpose.

Are you referring here to your 'Judicial hardening" process among the jews of jesus time?

Think the biblical postion would be that ALL have been 'hardened" by virtue of being born in and reckoned by God to be "In Adam" and as such, God has elected to save For His glory and purpose his faithful remnant, just as He had during the time of Christ!

 

[webdog]

Webdog
Do you like the statement that Winman posted from the EO site??
You think they were correct...and Augustine went off course???

Yes on both counts.

 

[Skandelon]

Are you referring here to your 'Judicial hardening" process among the jews of jesus time?

No, I'm referring to the well established, orthodox, biblical teaching of God's judicial hardening (also referred to as blinding or being 'cut off').

Think the biblical postion would be that ALL have been 'hardened" by virtue of being born in and reckoned by God to be "In Adam"

I can find you many text which indicate the people "grow" or "become" hardened over time. Can you find me just one where it teaches men are born hardened?

Thanks

 

[JesusFan]

No, I'm referring to the well established, orthodox, biblical teaching of God's judicial hardening (also referred to as blinding or being 'cut off').

I can find you many text which indicate the people "grow" or "become" hardened over time. Can you find me just one where it teaches men are born hardened?

Thanks

depends IF one sees us as being "IN Adam", and having inherit within us sin natures at birth...

IF yes with that, than ALL are born into the judgement of God against sin of Adam, and are spiritually dead to God...

IF nope, deny original/inherited sin from Adam fall, than would be in the process of "hardening" towards God by choosing to rebel and sin...

ALL depends on how one views the very nature of man!

 

[Skandelon]

depends IF one sees us as being "IN Adam", and having inherit within us sin natures at birth...

You can't equate "sin nature" with "total inability" without biblical support for doing so.

 

[JesusFan]

You can't equate "sin nature" with "total inability" without biblical support for doing so.

Sin nature is though that which renders us ALL spiritually dead, so that would include NOT having the ability inherit within us sinners to come to God in and by themselves!

 

[webdog]

Sin nature is though that which renders us ALL spiritually dead, so that would include NOT having the ability inherit within us sinners to come to God in and by themselves!

If sin nature = spiritual death we are all still spiritually dead.

 

[mandym]

If sin nature = spiritual death we are all still spiritually dead.

That is completely different from what he said. He said it is what renders man spiritually dead which is scriptural (Romans 5:12)

 

[webdog]

That is completely different from what he said. He said it is what renders man spiritually dead which is scriptural (Romans 5:12)

Unfortunately, the Scriptures teach us from Genesis to Revelation sinning is what renders man spiritually dead, not having a sin nature.(James 1:15, Ephesians 2:1 - 5 and others)

 

[JesusFan]

Unfortunately, the Scriptures teach us from Genesis to Revelation sinning is what renders man spiritually dead, not having a sin nature.(James 1:15, Ephesians 2:1 - 5 and others)

IF we are not born with a Sin nature, than are we all then "reconciled" to God at birth, and thus ONLY get a sin nature once we choose to actually sin?

So for a period of time we are 'innocent" before God as Adam was when created?

 

[webdog]

IF we are not born with a Sin nature, than are we all then "reconciled" to God at birth, and thus ONLY get a sin nature once we choose to actually sin?

This begs the question as having a sin nature is also not equated to being irreconcilable.

So for a period of time we are 'innocent" before God as Adam was when created?

As I have answered numerous times before, it has nothing to do with innocence. It has to do with being found guilty. Nobody pleads innocent in a court of law, there is only guilty or not guilty. You have a sin nature still. If you equate sin nature with "guilty", you are saying EVERYONE is irreconcilable, believer and non.

 

[mandym]

Unfortunately, the Scriptures teach us from Genesis to Revelation sinning is what renders man spiritually dead, not having a sin nature.(James 1:15, Ephesians 2:1 - 5 and others)

I see for some reason I was equating the two but you are right.

 

[JesusFan]

This begs the question as having a sin nature is also not equated to being irreconcilable.

Since ALL of us are born into sin, have a sin nature, and are sinners, and we can be saved by the Grace of God....

As I have answered numerous times before, it has nothing to do with innocence. It has to do with being found guilty. Nobody pleads innocent in a court of law, there is only guilty or not guilty. You have a sin nature still. If you equate sin nature with "guilty", you are saying EVERYONE is irreconcilable, believer and non.

Again, ALL are guilty before by, ALL are "IN Adam" and have been reckoned to be sinners by both birth and choice!

The Cross is the means by which God can declare the sinner to be just and to be a saint!

 

[webdog]

Since ALL of us are born into sin, have a sin nature, and are sinners, and we can be saved by the Grace of God....

...and begging the question some more by equating being born into sin and having a sin nature is what makes us a sinner, not the action of violating God's law as the Bible defines a sinner.

Again, ALL are guilty before by, ALL are "IN Adam" and have been reckoned to be sinners by both birth and choice!

I know this is what you believe, but it is not what the Bible teaches. Show me one passage even hinting we are dual sinners by birth and by choice.

The Cross is the means by which God can declare the sinner to be just and to be a saint!

FINALLY something agreed 100% on :thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

remember that david knew that he was conceived in sin and iniquity, that per paul we all are dead in our sins, in Adam, and this is one reason why jesus HAD to be virgin born of /by HS, as that meant he "by passed" inheriting the sin nature all born after Adam have received!

think that it is pretty much confirmed from the bible that ONLY 2 men EVER were w/o having sin natures, Adam by being created perfect by god, and Jesus by nature of His virgin birth!

All the rest of us are borned as sinners, and will prove that by choosing to sin all the way through our life!