"Does regeneration precede or follow faith?" I'm writing a paper on this

[kyredneck]

Charles Spurgeon recognized the folly of saying that the sinner must be regenerated before he can believe:

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].

Well Charles Spurgeon didn't have eveything just right.

If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him.....

That statement blows my mind, and yet I've recognized that this is a major major flaw within the Church today, and that is that the [totally wrong] idea that 'the gospel' is 'the tool' with which the Church populates heaven with. So much preaching of the gospel today is actually proffering.

"The gospel is not to be offered, it is to be proclaimed." A.W. Pink

 

[webdog]

Well Charles Spurgeon didn't have eveything just right.

Correct...but he got this one right

"The gospel is not to be offered, it is to be proclaimed." A.W. Pink

Well A.W. Pink didn't have everything just right The one doesn't oppose the other making it a false dichotomy.

 

[zrs6v4]

Some Observation Questions:

What does this regeneration look like?
Options:
- Does He come to us similarly to what its like when He indwells us?
- Does He cause our spiritual senses to be open to truth?
- Does He cause us to reflect and see our lives?
- Does He show us our sin, God's righteousness, and judgment?

What does it mean for Him to make us alive?
- Is it a command spoken to our hearts to overcome our sin bondage?
- Is it literally a command to an un-living soul to be alive again?

Is it Him giving us these gifts that cause us to come irresistably?
-emotions in light of as if being in God's presence
-A will change in light of being in God's presence
-A mind change in light of truth in the presence of God
-All of this as a result of our Spiritual senses being activated somehow by the Spirit's effectual call to our hearts.

My hypothesis so far is that the "complete act" of God saving us by His sovereign grace called Regeneration. Regeneration does seem to be meant by Jesus in John 3 as the entire event by the Spirit bringing us to newness with God. Regeneration is complete newness including no sin and being God's child. Here's the catch, The Reformed view (both sides), in my mind, tries to limit regeneration down to an event that causes the sinner to come to God. In a sense this is correct, although I would say that regeneration is not an event within the work of salvation, but is the work of salvation by the Spirit (unless that is what they have been saying all this time). At beginning of the work of regeneration within a sinner it is a guarantee and its end goal is the eternal new creature sealed by the Spirit. When saying Regeneration precedes faith, it seems to imply a single event, when it is to mean the beginning of the sovereign work of the Spirit to cause someone to come to faith.

Is that the reformed view, why or why not?

 

[zrs6v4]

Remember that regeneration is making new, reviving, or making alive.

Here's a picture of how I see it if this helps

Election, Regeneration begins, Effectual Calling, Repentance/Faith, [Justification, Indwelling/Sealing, Adoption], regeneration complete, Sanctification, Glorification

Jesus words in John 3 are to be in effect after the work of regeneration is complete.

 

[zrs6v4]

Charles Spurgeon recognized the folly of saying that the sinner must be regenerated before he can believe:

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].

Although this is a valid struggle, I wonder at what point in his life that he made this statement. I would have until about a year after I was saved.

 

[zrs6v4]

Nevermind , I was going to say something then decided no to

 

[Zenas]

Romans 10:17 says "faith comes from hearing." Seem pretty obvious then that regeneration cannot precede faith, no matter how you might define regeneration. And I submit that faith, like love, is a matter of the will. You can choose to exercise it or not.

 

[Luke2427]

As the thread title says, I am currently writing a paper on the question for a class I am taking. I know the debate over salvation is old to some, but I would like to refresh on the topic as I have not argued it in depth for awhile. I realize side topics will arise, but my paper is specifically on regeneration in the order of salvation.

To be open and honest, when I was born again I would not have argued in favor of Calvinism and changed so I have been arguing in favor of it for the last two years. The biggest stumbling block for me was always the regeneration part because it isn't as clear.

I have since decided to try to accurately tackle what the Bible means when it speaks of being born again (or regenerate, quickened, or born of the Spirit). I plan on trying to take an open-minded fresh look at this topic to be as Biblically accurate as possible.

I want to say that I am firm on the doctrines of grace, and do not believe, as of now that regeneration is "NOT" a must in order to still adhere to God's sovereign election and grace. This is because there is still clear evidence of the effectual call or inner call to the elect. My objective is to discover whether or not many Calvinist's confuse regeneration with the work of God's Spirit who calls, teaches, and draws. Logically in their view it makes sense, but my goal is to see Scripture's explanation.

I realize at first glance I will be making so called "enemies" in debate from both ends so I will do my best to clarify my view in the discussion.

So to open it up, please state clearly and "ONLY" The order in which you see salvation happening and define regeneration in your Biblical view.

Here are my options that I see thus far:

1. (Reformed) Election, Effectual Calling, Regeneration, Repentance/Faith, [Justification, Indwelling/Sealing, Adoption], Sanctification, Glorification

2. Election, Effectual Calling (including complete work of the Spirit much like Calvinists define born again), Faith/Repentance, [Justification, Indwelling/Sealing of Spirit, Adoption....= Regeneration], Sanctification, Glorification

Thus in my mind the two options offer either 1. that Regeneration is the complete work of being made new by the work of God or 2. It is a specific work of the Holy Spirit to make someone alive spiritually that they may see.

Your turn... Please be kind, on topic, and realize your preconceived notions so that by God's grace we can arrive at a Biblical view with careful reasoning.

Regeneration precedes faith.

The sinner cannot come to Christ because he will come. And he wil not because he cannot.

I Corinthians 2:14 says "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... neither CAN HE..." He cannot. The Gospel is a thing of the Spirit of God. In fact in that context that is THE thing to which Paul is referring. You'll see in verse one he opens saying "When I cam to you I came not with excellency of speech..." He came to them with the Gospel. He then notes the power of the Spirit of God. And tells who cannot receive the things of God- the natural man. He cannot.
Something must happen to him if he is to receive the things of the Spirit of God. He must have something in him that is not natural. That something is spirit- but the natural man has no spirit- his spirit is dead. So God regenerates the spirit of a man so that he can receive the things of the Spirit of God.

This is why Paul said in Romans 8- The carnal mind is enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God neither indeed can it be. It CAN"T be. The flesh and the spirit are contrary one to the other. Jesus said "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. That which is of the flesh is flesh and that which is of the spirit is spirit." So he told Nicodemus "Except a man be born again he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God." He cannot SEE it, comprehend it- it is foolishness unto him. Why? Because he is natural and the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. The carnal mind is enmity with God. So before one can SEE the Kingdom (mind you that is not Heaven- it almost never is- the Kingdom is that sphere which is subject to the King- Jesus said The Kingdom is at hand- that is how Jesus always spoke of the Kingdom)- before he can SEE the Kingdom he must be born again- born from above.
Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is receiving the things of the Spirit of God. The natural man cannot do this- he cannot have faith- he cannot see the Kingdom of God because that which is flesh is flesh and the carnal mind is at enmity with God.
That's why I John 5:1 says- "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God." Has been is the Greek tense. Whoever believes HAS BEEN born of God. You don't believe BEFORE you are born of God. Why? Because whoever believes (there is not one who believes who HAS NOT BEEN) has BEEN born of God. Compare that to I John 2:29 "Whosoever doeth righteousness HAS BEEN born of God..." Does doing righteousness precede being born of God? No. Doing righteousness FOLLOWS being born of God- it is the result- not the cause. Look at I John 4:7- "Whosoever loveth HAS BEEN born of God..." Same thing. Regeneration precedes faith- it must because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God and except a man be born again he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God.

He will not because he cannot.

AND he CANnot because he WILL not.

He has no desire for God. He WILL not come to Christ. There is none that doeth good- NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD.

He no more wants the things of God than a lion wants a salad. He has no appetite for them. They are repulsive to him.

His heart is desperately wicked deceitful above all things.

So it is not will VS cannot.

He will not because he cannot and he cannot because he will not.

 

[Luke2427]

Romans 10:17 says "faith comes from hearing." Seem pretty obvious then that regeneration cannot precede faith, no matter how you might define regeneration. And I submit that faith, like love, is a matter of the will. You can choose to exercise it or not.

Hearing the Word of God is WHAT regenerates so that one CAN have faith.

See the above post.

 

[Luke2427]

Well Charles Spurgeon didn't have eveything just right.



That statement blows my mind, and yet I've recognized that this is a major major flaw within the Church today, and that is that the [totally wrong] idea that 'the gospel' is 'the tool' with which the Church populates heaven with. So much preaching of the gospel today is actually proffering.

"The gospel is not to be offered, it is to be proclaimed." A.W. Pink

Spurgeon did not have everything right but he did believe that regeneration precedes faith. This quote is taken out of context more than any other Spurgeon quote in history.

This man clarifies

Spurgeon - page 6, paragraph 4 wrote:

There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.”
Spurgeon - page 6, second to last paragraph wrote:

To believe in Jesus is a better indicator of regeneration than anything else, and in no case did it ever mislead. Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.

I found another message by Spurgeon titled The Warrant of Faith (1863), where he uses the term regeneration as a synonym for salvation.
Spurgeon - page 3, paragraph 3 wrote:

If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already. It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate.

 

[Jerome]

Southern Baptist Founders Journal contributing editor Timothy George, in his book Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) p. 225:

This being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result

 

[quantumfaith]

Although this is a valid struggle, I wonder at what point in his life that he made this statement. I would have until about a year after I was saved.

Sorry, I don't know "diddly" with respect to the life of Spurgeon. You make a valid point about Mr. Spurgeon. He may have later in his life "settled this tension" for himself. The "point" I was attempting to make is there is not a one of us who can pronounce with mathematical certainty a clear and unambiguous soteriology.

Personally, my two cents, is that regeneration (panagenisis?) is the result of belief and faithful response to the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Personally, my two cents, is that regeneration (panagenisis?) is the result of belief and faithful response to the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit.

And my 2 cents worth is that God never called a man and not give him a tool to work with. Call it what you want.

Peace love and prayers

Jeff

 

[Tom Butler]

I think logical as opposed to chronological is a matter of semantics and actually is relative depending on the "logic" used, not to mention any such logic is finite.

I don't buy the notion one has to result in the other. Looking at things in a linear aspect is always flawed.

I understand that we see all this differently, but I think we probably agree that whatever order regeneration and faith follow, God makes the first move.
I'm talking about conviction, illumination and drawing as well as regeneration, faith and repentance.

 

[quantumfaith]

I understand that we see all this differently, but I think we probably agree that whatever order regeneration and faith follow, God makes the first move.
I'm talking about conviction, illumination and drawing as well as regeneration, faith and repentance.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I posted this on another thread a few days ago—but since its relevant for this topic I’ll repost it here-as far as the debate about pre-faith regeneration (or being born again preceding faith), I will admit there are many good scholars who support it with “interruptive” biblical evidence. But I personally think it comes down to how the term “regeneration” is being used. Does regeneration include the “drawing” of Jn 6:44, 65; or the God given ability to become spiritually alive (Eph 2:5) and heed the spoken word (Acts 16:14)? Admittedly, b/c of the depravity of men (Eph 2:1-3), the foolishness of God’s Word to the natural man (2 Cor 2:14) & man’s inability to seek after God (Rom 3:1-19)—(not to mention the spiritual deadness of the natural man, Eph 2:5)---something has to supernaturally happen b4 one can have faith or even recognize their state of sinfulness & need for a Savior. But is this something regeneration? Only if all of the Holy Spirit’s pre-faith activities can be lumped together under this one term. So if one is using regeneration this way (as proponents of the monergistic view of regeneration seem to do)—then it could be acceptable to say regeneration comes before faith. But one has to ask—are we truly & completely regenerated without faith? Not if one is using the term like K Keathley who defines it as “the act of God whereby the Holy Spirit imparts eternal life to the believer.” If eternal life is anywhere in the definition of regeneration—then it cannot precede faith—b/c without faith there is no eternal life (cf Jn 3:15; 1 Jn 5:11-12). While a lot more could (& honestly needs) to be said—the question of pre-faith regeneration really comes down to how the term regeneration (or being born again) is being used.

 

[webdog]

I understand that we see all this differently, but I think we probably agree that whatever order regeneration and faith follow, God makes the first move.
I'm talking about conviction, illumination and drawing as well as regeneration, faith and repentance.

We do agree on that. If man were left to himself he is doomed.

 

[MB]

Hi zrs6v4;
You asked;
"Does regeneration precede or follow faith?"
For me it happened after faith. All men are in rebellion to God yet God is able to convince any rebellious man of His Son, while still in his sin and rebellion. When I became convinced of the gospel, I had faith the hearing of it brought me, and that faith through conviction drove me to my knees in surrender to God's will. It wasn't my choosing to be saved. It was God's choosing to save me. It was all God's doing from the drawing to the convincing to the conviction and giving up to God.
MB

 

[Luke2427]

Hi zrs6v4;
You asked;
"Does regeneration precede or follow faith?"
For me it happened after faith. All men are in rebellion to God yet God is able to convince any rebellious man of His Son, while still in his sin and rebellion. When I became convinced of the gospel, I had faith the hearing of it brought me, and that faith through conviction drove me to my knees in surrender to God's will. It wasn't my choosing to be saved. It was God's choosing to save me. It was all God's doing from the drawing to the convincing to the conviction and giving up to God.
MB

This is the impression that we get when we get saved. Spurgeon noted that it was his impression too.

But the problem with this is that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither CAN HE (I Corinthians 2:14)

He can't do it. The Gospel is a thing of the Spirit of God. And the natural man CANNOT receive it.

So he must be something more than natural in order to be able to receive the things of the Spirit of God. Regeneration is what makes him more than natural. He begins to become a spiritual being. Now he CAN receive the things of the Spirit of God.

This is consistent with Romans 8 which says the carnal mind is at enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God neither CAN IT BE. It cannot be. So a man must have something more than a carnal mind in order to subject himself to God and God's authority.
Regeneration is what enables him to do so.

This is consistent with our Lord's teaching in John 3. He told Nicodemus, "Except ye be born again ye CANNOT SEE the Kingdom of God." You can't see it- you can't comprehend it. Why? Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of Spirit is spirit." Jesus gives the reason that regeneration must precede faith here in this statement. Because flesh is flesh and we know from I Cor 2:14 that flesh, or the natural man. CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God. So one must be born from above BEFORE he can receive those things.

This is consistent with I John 5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God." Being born of God PRECEDES believing that Jesus is the Christ.

Whosoever means everyone, right? Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN- not will be- HAS BEEN born of God.

Spurgeon said that this was the death nail to the idea that one must believe before he is born of God.

Spurgeon - page 6, paragraph 4 wrote:

There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.”

 

[percho]

This is to all who read this thread. Please, Please Reply

Jesus said in Luke 12:50 1st part But I have a baptism to be baptized with; He asked this question of his disciples in Mark 10:38 Can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
What was this baptism? Does the following tell?
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Luke 22:42,43 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
And even with the help of an angel he was still in agony. Verse 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Which I believe makes these apply to Jesus) Hebrews 12:3,4 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Why all this agony and fear? Sweating blood? Death? From Isaiah 53 when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he hath poured out his soul unto death: How many of you believe this once living soul died for you? Death? That his soul lay in hell (hades) for three days and three nights? Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Just who has been regenerated and when? The answer to Mark 10:38 Can ye be dring of the cup and be baptized with........Verse 39 Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: Matthew 19:28 That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory

Titus 3:5 How did God save us. The soul of Jesus through the life (same word as soul in the Hebrew) that is in the blood was made an offering for sin which we are washed clean in by the regeneration of him who died. The washing of regeneration. When Jesus was baptized by John he came up out of the water (was regenerated made alive again) the Spirit in the form of a dove descended upon him. And the renewing of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Why did this happen?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;(the faith in the Greek) and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [the in the Greek] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It is through the faith of the Christ we are saved.

I ask again is regeneration the same in both verses where it is used?

Does regeneration precede or follow faith in the above?