"Does regeneration precede or follow faith?" I'm writing a paper on this

[webdog]

Therein lies the main problem, no?

Here, you seem to be indicating that a person who is as yet unregenerated is merely "sin-sick" or some other concept along those lines. Is that your position, or if not, could you clarify?

That is not my position at all. Spiritual death is complete separation from God, not a diseased union.

Now back to my question Was Lazarus spiritually alive while he was physically dead?

The problem is comparing physical to spiritual. If we are going to do that, physical death is the ENDING of life meaning spiritual death must be the same if we are going to hold to such a wooden interpretation of it...kinda puts a huge dent on Augustinianism, no? Also, punishing a corpse is rendered meaningless with the logical conclusion being annhialationalism which is contrary to Scripture. How can a dead body and dead soul feel anything given the physical definition of death on this thread?

 

[kyredneck]

....When Jesus hollered "Lazarus, Come outa there," Lazarus obviously heard him, and came out of the tomb....

"Lazarus, come forth". He called him by name. I've heard it preached that if He had said only "come forth", the whole cemetary would have come alive.

 

[webdog]

"Lazarus, come forth". He called him by name. If He had said only "come forth", the whole cemetary would have come alive.

Based on what JArthur (and Tom to an extent) has stated, would the entire cemetery spiritually alive and spiritually dead been "regenerated" to hear Christ?

 

[Jarthur001]

...and the problem in comparing physical death to spiritual death is quite evident.

Which is what the BIBLE does, in order that we may understand what DEAD means.

1) The non-believer can not HEAR...Just as those without EARS cannot physically HEAR.

The non-believer still has EARS....but this is used for our understanding to say that a non-believer cannot HEAR as in UNDERSTAND their need.

2) The non-believer cannot SEE...Just as those without EYES cannot physically SEE.

The non-believer still has EYES....but this is used for our understanding to say that a non-believer cannot EYES as in UNDERSTAND their need.

3) The non-believer is DEAD..Just as those DEAD cannot physically CANNOT RESPOND.

Was Lazarus spiritually dead, or physically?

The passage was given to us to see the power of God in the person of his Son. We can also find other truths there. The secondary truths should never be used alone to set doctrine. However, this has not been done. I have given other clear verses as well as other posters giving there own. 1 John is the best book on the subject.

But..as it turns out the SON gives life in this passage which is the same message found everywhere in the Bible.

When life is given, the CREATOR does not ask the CREATURE if its ok. Just as your MOTHER did not ask you if you wanted to be BORN.

As in other places of the Bible we can take the physically truth and see a spiritually truth. This we have done. The LIFE BROUGHT FORTH is from God and by God with no input from Lazarus . So is the NEW BIRTH.

I also understand, that you reject this.

 

[Jarthur001]

Based on what JArthur (and Tom to an extent) has stated, would the entire cemetery spiritually alive and spiritually dead been "regenerated" to hear Christ?

This only shows poor understanding of Scripture.

Again, to say a person cannot SEE spiritually does not mean his eyes that cannot see flowers.

Word pictures or metaphors are used to teach us a TRUTH but not to be apply beyond what it is meant for.

Case in point....

When Scripture says Christ is a ROCK, please do not go worship a rock.

Dr Wilson wrote a good book on the types and shadows of the Bible. In it, Wilson bearks the types into 3 classes...a, b, and c. I don't have the book with me, but as I recall the as the type goes down to another class, it simply gives us added meaning to other known truths. As I said before, some passages give us clear pictures, others give us hints of truths.

Maybe you can read Wilson to get better understanding.

In Lazarus case, it simply teaches LIFE COMES FROM GOD.

But if I add this to the other verses, to me it only adds to what I already believe the Bible teaches. That is...Men are DEAD and cannot believe...God gives LIFE and they believe.

I also understand you don't see it that way, but it is yet to be shown what you believe the point is to the passage.

 

[kyredneck]

Based on what JArthur (and Tom to an extent) has stated, would the entire cemetery spiritually alive and spiritually dead been "regenerated" to hear Christ?

Christ called Lazarus by name webdog. He was dead, and Christ made him alive.

And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, Eph 2:1

 

[webdog]

1) The non-believer can not HEAR...Just as those without EARS cannot physically HEAR.

The non-believer still has EARS....but this is used for our understanding to say that a non-believer cannot HEAR as in UNDERSTAND their need.

16But(A) they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,(B) "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17So(C) faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
18But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

(D) "Their voice has gone out(E) to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world."

2) The non-believer cannot SEE...Just as those without EYES cannot physically SEE.

The non-believer still has EYES....but this is used for our understanding to say that a non-believer cannot EYES as in UNDERSTAND their need.

dJohn 9 39Jesus said, (AR) "For judgment I came into this world,(AS) that those who do not see may see, and(AT) those who see may become blind." 40Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him,(AU) "Are we also blind?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind,(AV) you would have no guilt;[c] but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.

3) The non-believer is DEAD..Just as those DEAD cannot physically CANNOT RESPOND.

Romans 6:1 1What shall we say then?(A) Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can(B) we who died to sin still live in it?
Colossians 3:5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

The passage was given to us to see the power of God in the person of his Son. We can also find other truths there. The secondary truths should never be used alone to set doctrine. However, this has not been done. I have given other clear verses as well as other posters giving there own. 1 John is the best book on the subject.

But..as it turns out the SON gives life in this passage which is the same message found everywhere in the Bible.

When life is given, the CREATOR does not ask the CREATURE if its ok. Just as your MOTHER did not ask you if you wanted to be BORN.

As in other places of the Bible we can take the physically truth and see a spiritually truth. This we have done. The LIFE BROUGHT FORTH is from God and by God with no input from Lazarus . So is the NEW BIRTH.

I understand this to be your understanding of the topic, but the question was not answered...was Lazarus spiritually alive while physically dead?

 

[glfredrick]

That is not my position at all. Spiritual death is complete separation from God, not a diseased union.

Not so fast... You've bypassed the actual question. You are still indicating that the person is in some sense "alive" and able to do something. From where does that "aliveness" come and what is its state? How can we describe it? How is your view different from the Roman Catholic view (and I'm not using this as a pejorative, they indeed see our state in a similar way)?

Now back to my question Was Lazarus spiritually alive while he was physically dead?

I don't know, and I would suspect, neither do you... As far as I can tell, we're never told his spiritual condition, other than the fact that he was a deer friend of Jesus and one of His followers, but that is all complicated by the issue of Pentecost and the sending of the Holy Spirit. Lazarus was pre-Pentecost, but not identified as the "firstborn from the dead" (Col 1:18) as was Jesus. That, for me at least, leaves the question very open to interpretation.

The problem is comparing physical to spiritual. If we are going to do that, physical death is the ENDING of life meaning spiritual death must be the same if we are going to hold to such a wooden interpretation of it...kinda puts a huge dent on Augustinianism, no? Also, punishing a corpse is rendered meaningless with the logical conclusion being annhialationalism which is contrary to Scripture. How can a dead body and dead soul feel anything given the physical definition of death on this thread?

That is an interesting dilemma... But again, how do you reconcile very clear biblical passages that say that we are "dead in our sin and tresspasses..."? I don't think that this puts any dent on Augustinianism. In fact, I would say that it amplifies his teaching, and it was his teaching that drove Calvin's later theology as well. The idea of eternal punishment for dead spirits may be a very human logical construct that is not reality when contrasted to the revealed actions of God. We KNOW that souls who are not "in Christ" will suffer for eternity in torment because the Bible says so very clearly. What we probably don't know is God's mechanism for bringing that about, but it is tied somehow to the "second death" etc.

I'd suggest dealing with the first item in this post before we move on to more difficult issues, however. You have a huge issue staring at you therein, and until you can somehow reconcile how those who are "completely separated from God" can somehow "come to Him" (and, I'll bet you have used that evangelism model where the cross of Christ is shown to divide the un-passable chasm between we and God) without God doing the work.

 

[MB]

Unless it is your contention that the seed being received means the person was saved and then lost his salvation because of sun, the fowl or whatever- then I don't understand your point.
[\quote]

That isn't my contention. No he wasn't saved but he did hear the seed or gospel and thus received it with gladness. but the seed could not take root. Simply he wouldn't have received it if he didn't understand it.

If the seed did not represent people who were saved, then how did these people REALLY receive the Gospel?

The seed is not the people the seed is the gospel the stony ground is repersentive of the man the seed is planted by the sower. Read the explanation of it given by our Lord same chapter.

Anyone can receive facts from the Word. The natural man is perfectly capable of receiving the fact that Jesus was a real person and that he was born of a virgin, etc, etc, etc... The natural man is perfectly capable of joining a church and giving mental assent to the truths of Scripture. I don't know of a single person on earth who doubts this.

But what he is not able to do is receive it as it is- a spiritual thing. Therefore he is not able to receive it in a meaningful way.

This is what the Scripture says. The natural man receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God neither can he. Period. That's it. That's the end of it.
[\quote]
The natural man doesn't receive spiritual things until he believes and natural men have the ability to believe. This is what your contention is that God cannot make a man believe with out regeneration.

If that verse means anything it means exactly what it says- that the unregenerate man who is only natural, only fleshly, only carnal CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

You're still claiming that God can't make the clay as He see's fit.

He cannot do it because he is thoroughly opposed to the things of God. It is much the same reason I cannot receive Communism or pedophilia. I am opposed to them. I cannot receive them. They are against every fiber of my being. The unregenerate has only a carnal mind which is at enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God NEITHER INDEED CAN IT BE. (Romans 8)

Do you believe in an all powerfull God? The Lord said according to Jeremiah.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

The carnal mind is enmity against God. It CANNOT be subject to the law of God- Period.

Your whole premise is based on one passage it is by the witness of two or three that a thing is established. Not to mention that passage doesn't say that God can't make the man understand with out regeneration.

Jesus said, "Except a man be born again he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."
He can't do it. It is beyond his natural, fleshly state to truly SEE the Kingdom of God. He has to be born from above FIRST.

Agreed this is true. And it is Christ who saves us not the natural man himself. God does it all so in reality it is irrevelvent what the Natural man can't do. God can do.

This is why I John 5:1 says, "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God."

We are born of God because it was God who saved us. Not man!

Who believes that Jesus is the Christ? Whosoever has been born of God. Being born of God precedes believing that Jesus is the Christ.
[\quote]
Not according to the Bible only according to the Calvinist doctrine. Scripture never says a man is born again first you have not one witness from scripture that ever says this. It is always "believe and you shall be saved". It says all who call on His name shall be saved. It does not say you shall be save so you can receive the things of the Spirit.

This is the first step towards becoming a Calvinist. I said these IDENTICAL words about a year before I became a Calvinist.



The word itself does not mean to be saved but it is used interchangeably with salvation because whoever is regenerated WILL BE saved. That is why God regenerated them- that they might be able to receive the things of the Spirit of God and be saved.

Both the Greek and the English dictionaries would disagree with you here about the definition of regenerated. It means "to renew" "Re make" which for all intents and purposes means saved in biblical language.

I agree. Salvation and regeneration, though linked, are not the same thing, however. Yes, one must believe to be saved. But one must be regenerated to believe.

Then why haven't you been able to show me clear precise dialog from the Word that says this. Pre salvation regeneration isn't biblical at all. It's plain Calvinism. It does not say regeneration and Salvation are two different things. That is assumed.

Salvation does come through faith but faith is made possible by regeneration. I John 5:1 is one verse that proves this. Here is another: Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." There are plenty more.

I agree the man can't do anything to save himself. although God can save whom ever He likes. He can convince any natural man he wants to convince of what ever He wishes to convince them of. I believe in the Power of God I have no doubt that He can. After all He is God.

The carnal mind is not able to keep the spiritual nature of the law because the carnal mind is not spiritual. God is spirit and the carnal mind is at enmity with God. This is why the Bible says the flesh and the spirit are contrary one to the other.

The Law never saved even one single soul. If it had Christ wouldn't have had to die for the sins of the world.

The carnal mind is absolutely able to never actually physically cheat on one's spouse or physically murder someone. That is not what that passage is talking about. It is talking about the SPIRITUAL nature of the law which the carnal mind cannot keep.

Like I said before it isn't man ability that is important in Salvation here it's God's ability.

No there isn't.


Everyone saved has seen the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God almost NEVER refers to heaven. Heaven is PART of the Kingdom of God but Jesus almost never referred to the Kingdom as Heaven. Jesus meant that sphere where God is King. Every being that is willingly subject unto the rule of God is in the Kingdom. But natural man is not able to be willingly subject unto God. He is endowed only with a carnal mind which is at enmity with God and CANNOT be subject unto the law of God. He is natural and CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

This is why whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God. He must be born of God so that he can see the Kingdom.

Seeing the kingdom isn't up to man to see it's up to God

Yes it does prove it.

No it doesn't Augustine came up with a theory and then attempted to prove it with scripture. Most likely the same scriptures you've used here

To reject Christ is to reject everything about God. They did not ever keep any part of the spiritual nature of the law of God. There is none that doeth good, no not one.

There still isn't any that does good we all still have that old sin nature we were born with. There is only one who is good and that is God. I say this because if you see good comming from a Christian it isn't the Christian that's doing it. It's the Lord inside the Christian living his life for him. Man is still unable to keep the Law. I know by myself I'm as weak as a mouse.

Unsaved people are not decent people who just need to get saved- they are thoroughly wicked, God hating people who need to be born again so that they can believe and be converted.

Again this is something you haven't shown with scripture at all. I agree men by them selves are nasty creatures.
MB

 

[webdog]

This only shows poor understanding of Scripture.

How? I asked a question based on a statement made. If anything it shows a poor understanding of my question.

Again, to say a person cannot SEE spiritually does not mean his eyes that cannot see flowers.

Wait...you did just that with your comparison of Lazarus' corpse to a spiritual one.

Word pictures or metaphors are used to teach us a TRUTH but not to be apply beyond what it is meant for.

I agree...and the truth is in regards to what death means, which is separation.

Case in point....

When Scripture says Christ is a ROCK, please do not go worship a rock.

No worries...I've worshiped at a service called "The Rock", but that's entirely different

Dr Wilson wrote a good book on the types and shadows of the Bible. In it, Wilson bearks the types into 3 classes...a, b, and c. I don't have the book with me, but as I recall the as the type goes down to another class, it simply gives us added meaning to other known truths. As I said before, some passages give us clear pictures, others give us hints of truths.

Maybe you can read Wilson to get better understanding.

Thanks for the suggestion, and maybe I will...but if his view is the wooden "corpse" understanding of spiritual death I doubt that will trump the understanding I can glean from Scripture.

But if I add this to the other verses, to me it only adds to what I already believe the Bible teaches. That is...Men are DEAD and cannot believe...God gives LIFE and they believe.

Conversely, he is unable to not believe, and personal accountability for not believing is a farce.

I also understand you don't see it that way, but it is yet to be shown what you believe the point is to the passage.

The entire point of the passage is not to prove pre-faith regeneration, but to show that Christ is "The Life" and hold all power over death and the grave. He doesn't need something to happen in order for man to respond to Him, which renders him powerless over death.

 

[MB]

I apolligise for this last post the quotes would not appear in there proper place maybe a moderater can fix it
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

16But(A) they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,(B) "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17So(C) faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
18But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

I'm sure you feel like you have made a point here, but I fail to see that point. Please make it clear for me. Thanks.

(D) "Their voice has gone out(E) to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world."
dJohn 9 39Jesus said, (AR) "For judgment I came into this world,(AS) that those who do not see may see, and(AT) those who see may become blind." 40Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him,(AU) "Are we also blind?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind,(AV) you would have no guilt;[c] but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.

The only motif I see in common with the above verses is that the gospel has gone out to ALL. So....Are you saying and is this your point, that when Paul wrote this, that he felt like ALL of MANKIND had heard the gospel?

Or...is ths saying that the gospel as now to ALL....both the Jew and the Greek as it says in Ephs 2-3??

Even if this is your point, and if it is, I would debate this later, you have not addressed the meaning of the words given. When Scripture says...

"John 8... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word..............AND...............Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
​

When Jesus say YOU CANNOT HEAR....notice not WILL NOT.....but CANNOT HEAR...what does he mean?

 

[webdog]

Not so fast... You've bypassed the actual question. You are still indicating that the person is in some sense "alive" and able to do something. From where does that "aliveness" come and what is its state? How can we describe it? How is your view different from the Roman Catholic view (and I'm not using this as a pejorative, they indeed see our state in a similar way)?

I didn't bypass anything. Here is your question... Here, you seem to be indicating that a person who is as yet unregenerated is merely "sin-sick" or some other concept along those lines. Is that your position, or if not, could you clarify?
Here is my answer...Spiritual death is complete separation from God, not a diseased union.

What went unanswered? I didn't indicate there is some sort of "life" based on how I believe the Bible defines spiritual death, not on how you define it.

I don't know, and I would suspect, neither do you... As far as I can tell, we're never told his spiritual condition, other than the fact that he was a deer friend of Jesus and one of His followers, but that is all complicated by the issue of Pentecost and the sending of the Holy Spirit. Lazarus was pre-Pentecost, but not identified as the "firstborn from the dead" (Col 1:18) as was Jesus. That, for me at least, leaves the question very open to interpretation.

I do know that once one is in Hell, they are there to stay...but that is not the point of my question.
According to your understanding, is this accurate?
Physical death = unable to respond, spiritual life = able to respond
Spiritual death = unable to respond, physical life = unable to respond

That is an interesting dilemma... But again,...

Ah, not so fast, no "but again" It needs to be dealt with, and not using the very same logic and presuppositions you use on other texts. These are your illustrations and interpretations I'm working with, not mine.

I'd suggest dealing with the first item in this post before we move on to more difficult issues, however. You have a huge issue staring at you therein, and until you can somehow reconcile how those who are "completely separated from God" can somehow "come to Him" (and, I'll bet you have used that evangelism model where the cross of Christ is shown to divide the un-passable chasm between we and God) without God doing the work.

I did deal with it...you didn't like it Given the Lazarus story, there is no dilemma. In the same way it is naturally possible for a physically dead person to respond to Christ (but still did), one who is spiritually dead can ALSO do the same.

I don't know what you have against the "cross evangelism model" (I haven't used it, btw...my calvinist pastor has though ) considering Christ says "no man can come to the Father but through Me". I don't get how you just take it upon yourself to assume those using that model believe God hasn't done all the work. Kind of mind baffling for you to say that in all honesty.

 

[webdog]

[post snipped - questioning salvation of another poster is not tolerated]

 

[Jarthur001]

Sorry..I overlooked this passage..

dJohn 9 39Jesus said, (AR) "For judgment I came into this world,(AS) that those who do not see may see, and(AT) those who see may become blind." 40Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him,(AU) "Are we also blind?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind,(AV) you would have no guilt;[c] but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.

I would love to hear why you think this helps your view. My answer is very long. I have been teaching in John for almost 3 years, and just now got to chapter 10, so I can recall all of this passage by heart.

This I understand does not mean I have the right view....I just want to hear what your point is.

 

[Jarthur001]

I would expect you wouldn't "hear" it

hummm

Not because it's not there, though.
I wouldn't expect you to "see" it either

hummm

Now, is this due to you not being enabled to see it or hear it, or is there something else that keeps you from it? I believe your mind is made up, and no amount of passages showing those NOT spiritually alive seeing and hearing will change your mind.

I didn't really believe you would answer. Proof texting with no point places a person where later he will find it hard to defend himself. The answer to proof texting is context.

I'm not going to

dwell on it, though. It's unfortunate, but we have been down this road before
Indeed...which limits my time here. I love debates, but it must be on subject, or it is a waste of time.

Take care!

indeed

 

[Dr. Bob]

And on another note, thread reached maximum page length.