"Does regeneration precede or follow faith?" I'm writing a paper on this

[Luke2427]

This is to all who read this thread. Please, Please Reply

Jesus said in Luke 12:50 1st part But I have a baptism to be baptized with; He asked this question of his disciples in Mark 10:38 Can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
What was this baptism? Does the following tell?
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Luke 22:42,43 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
And even with the help of an angel he was still in agony. Verse 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Which I believe makes these apply to Jesus) Hebrews 12:3,4 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Why all this agony and fear? Sweating blood? Death? From Isaiah 53 when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he hath poured out his soul unto death: How many of you believe this once living soul died for you? Death? That his soul lay in hell (hades) for three days and three nights? Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Just who has been regenerated and when? The answer to Mark 10:38 Can ye be dring of the cup and be baptized with........Verse 39 Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: Matthew 19:28 That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory

Titus 3:5 How did God save us. The soul of Jesus through the life (same word as soul in the Hebrew) that is in the blood was made an offering for sin which we are washed clean in by the regeneration of him who died. The washing of regeneration. When Jesus was baptized by John he came up out of the water (was regenerated made alive again) the Spirit in the form of a dove descended upon him. And the renewing of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Why did this happen?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;(the faith in the Greek) and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [the in the Greek] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It is through the faith of the Christ we are saved.

I ask again is regeneration the same in both verses where it is used?

Does regeneration precede or follow faith in the above?

I think this may be the confusing element in this conversation.

Regeneration BOTH precedes and follows faith.

It exists SO one CAN believe and it is maintained by one believing.

It is like a newborn baby. Life existed before breath. But breath must take place if life is to continue.

Spiritual life exists BEFORE faith but faith must take place if this spiritual life is to continue. Thank God it does and it always will because faith a gift of God- it is not contingent upon man- but it is still a condition for continued spiritual life just as breath is a condition for continued physical life.

You must be born so you can breathe.

You must be born again so you can believe.

You must breathe so you can continue to live,

Just so you must believe so you can continue to have spiritual life.

Regeneration both precedes AND follows faith.

 

[Luke2427]

That statement blows my mind, and yet I've recognized that this is a major major flaw within the Church today, and that is that the [totally wrong] idea that 'the gospel' is 'the tool' with which the Church populates heaven with. So much preaching of the gospel today is actually proffering.

"The gospel is not to be offered, it is to be proclaimed." A.W. Pink

This is a tremendous statement! Thanks for this kyredneck!

 

[Old Union Brother]

When God called me to his ministry he called me to proclaim His everlasting gospel. God added to church not me.

 

[Luke2427]

Forget Grudem.....read berkof,hodge or boyce...here is some boyce;
[QUOTE1. From the fact that the heart is the soil in which the seed, the word of God, is sown, and that seed only brings forth fruit in the good soil. The heart is made good soil by regeneration.

2. Regeneration (as in infants) may exist without faith and repentance, but the latter cannot exist without the former. Therefore, regeneration precedes.

3. Logically the enabling act of God must, in a creature, precede the act of the creature thus enabled. But this logical antecedence involves actual antecedence, or the best conceptions of our mind deceive us and are not reliable. For this logical antecedence exists only because the mind observes plainly a perceived dependence of the existence of the one on the other. But such dependence demands, if not causal, at least antecedent existence. Here it is only antecedent.

VI. There is not only antecedence, but in some cases an appreciable interval.

1. This is true even of conversion regarded as a mere turning to God. Between it and regeneration must intervene in some cases some period of time until the knowledge of God's existence and nature is given, before the heart turns, or even is turned towards that God.

(1.) This must be true of all infants and of all persons otherwise incapable of responsibility, as for example idiots.

(2.) There is no reason why it should not be true of some heathen. The missionaries of the cross have been sought by men, who knew nothing of Christianity, but whose hearts, unsatisfied with the religion of their fathers, were restlessly seeking for what their soul was crying out.

2. It is still more manifestly true of full Christian conversion.

(1.) The Scriptures teach this in many examples of persons pious, holy, and fearing God, yet unacquainted with the full truth which secures union with Christ.

Ethiopian Eunuch: Acts 8:26-40.

Paul: Acts, chapter 9, 22 and 26. Galatians, chapters 1st and 2d.

Cornelius the Centurion: Acts 10:2.

Lydia: Acts 16:14.

(2.) The experience of ministers in all ages with persons seeking and attaining salvation confirms this idea. The attainment of conversion
]

[/QUOTE]

Very good!

I don't know how anyone can argue with this logic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"The gospel is not to be offered, it is to be proclaimed." A.W. Pink

That is a great comment....I will have to remember that.

 

[MB]

This is the impression that we get when we get saved. Spurgeon noted that it was his impression too.

But the problem with this is that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither CAN HE (I Corinthians 2:14)
He can't do it. The Gospel is a thing of the Spirit of God. And the natural man CANNOT receive it.

If the gospel message were as you say it is then Christ must have been wrong about the stony ground that received the seed.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

The stony ground repersents a man who received the word or seed. When the seed starts to grow the sun comes up and scorches it.
Notice the stony ground heard the Word and received it

Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

You might ask where do we get the root? the root is a result of the study of the Word.
The idea that the natural man is unable to hear the word isn't true. as is the idea that God cannot convince a natural man of the gospel with out saving him first isn't true. All things are possible with God.
I have a lot of respect for Calvinism yet I still disagree with it.

So he must be something more than natural in order to be able to receive the things of the Spirit of God. Regeneration is what makes him more than natural. He begins to become a spiritual being. Now he CAN receive the things of the Spirit of God.

I disagree that man has to be regenerated first because if the man is to be saved he is already chosen to be, by God. The very Word regenerate means renew and is defined as being saved or, born again. There simply is no Salvation with out faith and grace comes to us through our faith. Eph 2:8. I think we agree that we need grace to be saved and if so and it comes through the faith that God gives to us while still in our sins. Which means we receive faith by hearing the gospel. Not by regeneration.

This is consistent with Romans 8 which says the carnal mind is at enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God neither CAN IT BE. It cannot be. So a man must have something more than a carnal mind in order to subject himself to God and God's authority.
Regeneration is what enables him to do so.

Romans 8 does not say man must be regenerated in order to hear or receive the gospel. So where is this consistency? There is a difference between being subject to the Law and God being able to convince a natural man of the gospel. It is certainly strange that man, any man, understands that if they break the Law. They will have to pay for it. Which by the way comes from God's word and then there are some who claim those same men cannot understand the gospel.

This is consistent with our Lord's teaching in John 3. He told Nicodemus, "Except ye be born again ye CANNOT SEE the Kingdom of God." You can't see it- you can't comprehend it. Why? Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of Spirit is spirit." Jesus gives the reason that regeneration must precede faith here in this statement. Because flesh is flesh and we know from I Cor 2:14 that flesh, or the natural man. CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God. So one must be born from above BEFORE he can receive those things.

Again there is a difference between seeing the kingdom and understanding the gospel. There is nothing in John 3 that would lead me to believe I must be regenerated or saved before I can receive the gospel. No one living has seen the kingdom.

This is consistent with I John 5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God." Being born of God PRECEDES believing that Jesus is the Christ.

Whosoever means everyone, right? Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN- not will be- HAS BEEN born of God.

Spurgeon said that this was the death nail to the idea that one must believe before he is born of God.

Spurgeon - page 6, paragraph 4 wrote:

Spurgeon was a famous minister but that is all he was and even that didn't make him right. Simply there is no said death nail to faith before Salvation there simply is no evidence of pre Salvation regeneration. All you have given has been given before and it doesn't prove this theory at all.

Most of the Jews at the time of Jesus rejected Christ yet even Paul said they have a zeal for God
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

There submission to God in accepting Christ was the only reason they weren't saved. Yet Calvinism would have us all saved with out submission. Just not possible.
MB

 

[MB]

This is to all who read this thread. Please, Please Reply

Jesus said in Luke 12:50 1st part But I have a baptism to be baptized with; He asked this question of his disciples in Mark 10:38 Can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
What was this baptism? Does the following tell?
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Luke 22:42,43 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
And even with the help of an angel he was still in agony. Verse 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Which I believe makes these apply to Jesus) Hebrews 12:3,4 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Why all this agony and fear? Sweating blood? Death? From Isaiah 53 when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he hath poured out his soul unto death: How many of you believe this once living soul died for you? Death? That his soul lay in hell (hades) for three days and three nights? Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Just who has been regenerated and when? The answer to Mark 10:38 Can ye be dring of the cup and be baptized with........Verse 39 Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: Matthew 19:28 That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory

Titus 3:5 How did God save us. The soul of Jesus through the life (same word as soul in the Hebrew) that is in the blood was made an offering for sin which we are washed clean in by the regeneration of him who died. The washing of regeneration. When Jesus was baptized by John he came up out of the water (was regenerated made alive again) the Spirit in the form of a dove descended upon him. And the renewing of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Why did this happen?

The message I get from all that the Lord did was to give us an example of His perfect faith. It all led to His trial and death which had even a greater message and that is He died for our sins all of them past, present, and future. He pave the way as well as being the only way to have an eternity with Him in His Fathers house.
We all will exist for eternity but the where we exist and in what conditions is so very important.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;(the faith in the Greek) and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [the in the Greek] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It is through the faith of the Christ we are saved.

I ask again is regeneration the same in both verses where it is used?

Does regeneration precede or follow faith in the above?

All these verses below have the same message and belief is always first.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We have to have faith for both confession and belief.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house

No where does the Bible say we are saved before faith.
MB

 

[quantumfaith]

"The gospel is not to be offered, it is to be proclaimed." A.W. Pink

That is a great comment....I will have to remember that.

EWF, , your resident "non-reformed" friend thinks it should be both, proclaimed and offered, passionately, articulately and honestly.

 

[percho]

The message I get from all that the Lord did was to give us an example of His perfect faith. It all led to His trial and death which had even a greater message and that is He died for our sins all of them past, present, and future. He pave the way as well as being the only way to have an eternity with Him in His Fathers house.
We all will exist for eternity but the where we exist and in what conditions is so very important.


All these verses below have the same message and belief is always first.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We have to have faith for both confession and belief.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house

No where does the Bible say we are saved before faith.
MB

Why all this agony and fear? Sweating blood? Death? From Isaiah 53 when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he hath poured out his soul unto death: How many of you believe this once living soul died for you? Death? That his soul lay in hell (hades) for three days and three nights? Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. John 10:17,18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life,(soul) that I might take (AV translated receive 133 take 106) it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take (receive same as above) it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Now taking under consideration the number of times it is said God, implying the Father raised him from the dead let be ask:

Does the word of God say the soul of Jesus was regenerated from hades (the grave, the place of the dead)?
Did the living soul, Jesus die and was raised to life from the tomb where Jesus had lay for three days and three nights?

 

[Luke2427]

If the gospel message were as you say it is then Christ must have been wrong about the stony ground that received the seed.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

The stony ground repersents a man who received the word or seed. When the seed starts to grow the sun comes up and scorches it.
Notice the stony ground heard the Word and received it

Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

You might ask where do we get the root? the root is a result of the study of the Word.
The idea that the natural man is unable to hear the word isn't true. as is the idea that God cannot convince a natural man of the gospel with out saving him first isn't true. All things are possible with God.

Unless it is your contention that the seed being received means the person was saved and then lost his salvation because of sun, the fowl or whatever- then I don't understand your point.

If the seed did not represent people who were saved, then how did these people REALLY receive the Gospel?

Anyone can receive facts from the Word. The natural man is perfectly capable of receiving the fact that Jesus was a real person and that he was born of a virgin, etc, etc, etc... The natural man is perfectly capable of joining a church and giving mental assent to the truths of Scripture. I don't know of a single person on earth who doubts this.

But what he is not able to do is receive it as it is- a spiritual thing. Therefore he is not able to receive it in a meaningful way.

This is what the Scripture says. The natural man receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God neither can he. Period. That's it. That's the end of it.

If that verse means anything it means exactly what it says- that the unregenerate man who is only natural, only fleshly, only carnal CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

He cannot do it because he is thoroughly opposed to the things of God. It is much the same reason I cannot receive Communism or pedophilia. I am opposed to them. I cannot receive them. They are against every fiber of my being. The unregenerate has only a carnal mind which is at enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God NEITHER INDEED CAN IT BE. (Romans 8)

The carnal mind is enmity against God. It CANNOT be subject to the law of God- Period.

Jesus said, "Except a man be born again he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."
He can't do it. It is beyond his natural, fleshly state to truly SEE the Kingdom of God. He has to be born from above FIRST.

This is why I John 5:1 says, "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God."
Who believes that Jesus is the Christ? Whosoever has been born of God. Being born of God precedes believing that Jesus is the Christ.

I have a lot of respect for Calvinism yet I still disagree with it.

This is the first step towards becoming a Calvinist. I said these IDENTICAL words about a year before I became a Calvinist.

I disagree that man has to be regenerated first because if the man is to be saved he is already chosen to be, by God. The very Word regenerate means renew and is defined as being saved or, born again.

The word itself does not mean to be saved but it is used interchangeably with salvation because whoever is regenerated WILL BE saved. That is why God regenerated them- that they might be able to receive the things of the Spirit of God and be saved.

There simply is no Salvation with out faith and grace comes to us through our faith. Eph 2:8.

I agree. Salvation and regeneration, though linked, are not the same thing, however. Yes, one must believe to be saved. But one must be regenerated to believe.

I think we agree that we need grace to be saved and if so and it comes through the faith that God gives to us while still in our sins. Which means we receive faith by hearing the gospel. Not by regeneration.

Salvation does come through faith but faith is made possible by regeneration. I John 5:1 is one verse that proves this. Here is another: Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." There are plenty more.

Romans 8 does not say man must be regenerated in order to hear or receive the gospel. So where is this consistency? There is a difference between being subject to the Law and God being able to convince a natural man of the gospel. It is certainly strange that man, any man, understands that if they break the Law. They will have to pay for it. Which by the way comes from God's word and then there are some who claim those same men cannot understand the gospel.

The carnal mind is not able to keep the spiritual nature of the law because the carnal mind is not spiritual. God is spirit and the carnal mind is at enmity with God. This is why the Bible says the flesh and the spirit are contrary one to the other.

The carnal mind is absolutely able to never actually physically cheat on one's spouse or physically murder someone. That is not what that passage is talking about. It is talking about the SPIRITUAL nature of the law which the carnal mind cannot keep.

Again there is a difference between seeing the kingdom and understanding the gospel.

No there isn't.

There is nothing in John 3 that would lead me to believe I must be regenerated or saved before I can receive the gospel. No one living has seen the kingdom.

Everyone saved has seen the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God almost NEVER refers to heaven. Heaven is PART of the Kingdom of God but Jesus almost never referred to the Kingdom as Heaven. Jesus meant that sphere where God is King. Every being that is willingly subject unto the rule of God is in the Kingdom. But natural man is not able to be willingly subject unto God. He is endowed only with a carnal mind which is at enmity with God and CANNOT be subject unto the law of God. He is natural and CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

This is why whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God. He must be born of God so that he can see the Kingdom.

Spurgeon was a famous minister but that is all he was and even that didn't make him right. Simply there is no said death nail to faith before Salvation there simply is no evidence of pre Salvation regeneration. All you have given has been given before and it doesn't prove this theory at all.

Yes it does prove it.

Most of the Jews at the time of Jesus rejected Christ yet even Paul said they have a zeal for God
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

There submission to God in accepting Christ was the only reason they weren't saved. Yet Calvinism would have us all saved with out submission. Just not possible.
MB

To reject Christ is to reject everything about God. They did not ever keep any part of the spiritual nature of the law of God. There is none that doeth good, no not one.

Unsaved people are not decent people who just need to get saved- they are thoroughly wicked, God hating people who need to be born again so that they can believe and be converted.

 

[zrs6v4]

Regeneration precedes faith.

The sinner cannot come to Christ because he will come. And he will not because he cannot.

I totally agree. If you will look at my previous posts regarding my order of salvation options You will see that I fall under Calvinist views and am completely aware of all the below passages. My issue at hand is that why do we assume that the Spirit's method is to impart rebirth to bring this response? He does do a type of regenerating work that brings us to Christ, although is it possible that in Jesus conversation with Nicodemus that He was not intending it to appear as an event? It is clearly the Spirit who gives life, and brings sinners to God, yet it seems (In my mind at this point) that the Reformed view of Regeneration might not be a Biblical argument, rather a logical assumption that slightly misses some things.

I Corinthians 2:14 says "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... neither CAN HE..." He cannot. The Gospel is a thing of the Spirit of God. In fact in that context that is THE thing to which Paul is referring. You'll see in verse one he opens saying "When I cam to you I came not with excellency of speech..." He came to them with the Gospel. He then notes the power of the Spirit of God. And tells who cannot receive the things of God- the natural man. He cannot.
Something must happen to him if he is to receive the things of the Spirit of God. He must have something in him that is not natural. That something is spirit- but the natural man has no spirit- his spirit is dead. So God regenerates the spirit of a man so that he can receive the things of the Spirit of God.

I do not see why we must assume the Spirit's method is to regenerate (Reformed view)? Again, it makes beautiful sense and I want to accept it, although, is it life that the Spirit is giving or is it another type of work the Spirit does we are neglecting? Where in the passage or any passages does it say that the Spirit's sovereign work in bringing people to Christ is that they need to be born again? At this point in my mind it seems like it is a leap to label regeneration a point in the order of salvation when indeed it could simply be the Spirit irresistably illuminating things WHICH MAKE IT SEEM LIKE REGENERATION BUT IS NOT WHAT JESUS MEANT IN JOHN 3. How would you respond here?

This is why Paul said in Romans 8- The carnal mind is enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God neither indeed can it be. It CAN"T be. The flesh and the spirit are contrary one to the other. Jesus said "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. That which is of the flesh is flesh and that which is of the spirit is spirit." So he told Nicodemus "Except a man be born again he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God." He cannot SEE it, comprehend it- it is foolishness unto him. Why? Because he is natural and the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. The carnal mind is enmity with God. So before one can SEE the Kingdom (mind you that is not Heaven- it almost never is- the Kingdom is that sphere which is subject to the King- Jesus said The Kingdom is at hand- that is how Jesus always spoke of the Kingdom)- before he can SEE the Kingdom he must be born again- born from above.
Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is receiving the things of the Spirit of God. The natural man cannot do this- he cannot have faith- he cannot see the Kingdom of God because that which is flesh is flesh and the carnal mind is at enmity with God.

My argument isn't against the complete and sovereign work of the Spirit. Nor is it that man needs to be completely rescued by the grace of God. It is the leap in the argument that says that Regeneration is the work that is done at one point that brings life and causes a sinner to have spiritual senses to respond. Again Why can't the Spirit be doing a work similar to that which the Reformed label Rebirth?

That's why I John 5:1 says- "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God." Has been is the Greek tense. Whoever believes HAS BEEN born of God. You don't believe BEFORE you are born of God. Why? Because whoever believes (there is not one who believes who HAS NOT BEEN) has BEEN born of God. Compare that to I John 2:29 "Whosoever doeth righteousness HAS BEEN born of God..." Does doing righteousness precede being born of God? No. Doing righteousness FOLLOWS being born of God- it is the result- not the cause. Look at I John 4:7- "Whosoever loveth HAS BEEN born of God..." Same thing. Regeneration precedes faith- it must because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God and except a man be born again he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God.

If I were to rephrase that to say, "If you believe in Jesus you have been born again." Does not automatically assume that born again precedes faith. It simply means, if you are believing in Jesus you are born again already. The right way to say this is to say, "You dont believe unless the Spirit does something within." Again, Why assume regeneration is defined, "Imparting Spiritual life?" By the way, what is Spiritual Life? I do not hold that a sinner dead in sin is actually a dead spirit that needs to be alive. I will say that I hold that dead in sins does imply the impossibility of man to respond to God apart from sovereign grace.

He will not because he cannot.

AND he CANnot because he WILL not.

He has no desire for God. He WILL not come to Christ. There is none that doeth good- NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD.

He no more wants the things of God than a lion wants a salad. He has no appetite for them. They are repulsive to him.

His heart is desperately wicked deceitful above all things.

So it is not will VS cannot.

He will not because he cannot and he cannot because he will not.

This is agreed upon, the issue is in the assumption of what Regeneration Biblically means. There is no Scripture yet given that fills in this blank.If there is lets discuss it.

 

[Luke2427]

I totally agree. If you will look at my previous posts regarding my order of salvation options You will see that I fall under Calvinist views and am completely aware of all the below passages. My issue at hand is that why do we assume that the Spirit's method is to impart rebirth to bring this response?He does do a type of regenerating work that brings us to Christ, although is it possible that in Jesus conversation with Nicodemus that He was not intending it to appear as an event? It is clearly the Spirit who gives life, and brings sinners to God, yet it seems (In my mind at this point) that the Reformed view of Regeneration might not be a Biblical argument, rather a logical assumption that slightly misses some things.

Yea, I don't have a problem with this. It is certainly better than the Arminian view that says that spiritually dead people who are at enmity with God and CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God are perfectly capable of responding in their spiritual deadness.

I do not see why we must assume the Spirit's method is to regenerate (Reformed view)? Again, it makes beautiful sense and I want to accept it, although, is it life that the Spirit is giving or is it another type of work the Spirit does we are neglecting? Where in the passage or any passages does it say that the Spirit's sovereign work in bringing people to Christ is that they need to be born again?

Jesus said that in order to SEE the Kingdom of God you must be born again. I John 5:1 says it as well. I saw you addressed that below so I will deal with that momentarily.

At this point in my mind it seems like it is a leap to label regeneration a point in the order of salvation when indeed it could simply be the Spirit irresistably illuminating things WHICH MAKE IT SEEM LIKE REGENERATION BUT IS NOT WHAT JESUS MEANT IN JOHN 3. How would you respond here?

I think the Spirit's illumination IS what regenerates. A dead mind cannot understand or comprehend. I believe the light of the Gospel brings life like the light of the sun in Spring. It gives life then understanding.

My argument isn't against the complete and sovereign work of the Spirit.

Yes, I can tell. I don't have a problem in the world with your argument.

It is the leap in the argument that says that Regeneration is the work that is done at one point that brings life and causes a sinner to have spiritual senses to respond. Again Why can't the Spirit be doing a work similar to that which the Reformed label Rebirth?

No more than a leopard can change his spots or an ethiopian his skin can a man accustomed to doing evil do good. To obey the Gospel is good. A dead sinner cannot do good. So he must be made somethign MORE than a dead sinner- he is made alive. That is regeneration.

If I were to rephrase that to say, "If you believe in Jesus you have been born again." Does not automatically assume that born again precedes faith. It simply means, if you are believing in Jesus you are born again already.

Yes, it absolutely does. If you believe in Jesus you have been born again already. That still means that being born again precedes believing in Jesus.

If you walk you HAVE BEEN given legs.

Whoever believes in Jesus HAS BEEN born again. In other words there is NNE who believes in Jesus who has NOT been born again.

This is Johanan language. In 2:29 it says- "Whosoever does righteousness has been born of God." So when you see anyone who does righteousness, what are you to conclude? That that person was born of God. The last thing you would conclude is that the doing righteousness PRECEDED the being born of God.

John uses the same terminology again in 4:7 "Whoever loves has been born of God." Does one love to be born of God or because he has been born of God? Does love precede or follow being born of God?

The same exact language in 5:1 Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. So what are we to conclude about every single person who believes that Jesus is the Christ? That they HAVE BEEN born of God. Before they believed they were born of God. Before they did righteousness they were born of God. Before they loved they were born of God. They love, do righteousness and believe because they HAVE BEEN born of God.

The right way to say this is to say, "You dont believe unless the Spirit does something within." Again, Why assume regeneration is defined, "Imparting Spiritual life?" By the way, what is Spiritual Life? I do not hold that a sinner dead in sin is actually a dead spirit that needs to be alive. I will say that I hold that dead in sins does imply the impossibility of man to respond to God apart from sovereign grace.

You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins. God made you alive spiritually because you were dead spiritually. You were natural and could not receive the things of the Spirit of God. You were carnal and could not be subject unto the law of God. You were fleshly and flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God (not heaven mind you- the Kingdom. The Kingdom is here on this earth now. It is among you Jesus said. It is within you Jesus said) and flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. This is why Jesus said when speaking of that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit that you must be born again. You must be born again because flesh (the natural man, the carnal mind) cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and until you are born from above you cannot even SEE the Kingdom of God.

Nicodemus boasted that night of what he could see, what he could comprehend, what he knew and understood. He said, "We KNOW that thou art a teacher come from God." Jesus was about to show him how little he really knew and how little he COULD know in his current natural state. "Verily, verily I say unto you, except ye be born again ye cannot SEE the Kingdom of God!"

 

[The Archangel]

Whoever believes in Jesus HAS BEEN born again. In other words there is NNE who believes in Jesus who has NOT been born again.

This is Johanan language. In 2:29 it says- "Whosoever does righteousness has been born of God." So when you see anyone who does righteousness, what are you to conclude? That that person was born of God. The last thing you would conclude is that the doing righteousness PRECEDED the being born of God.

John uses the same terminology again in 4:7 "Whoever loves has been born of God." Does one love to be born of God or because he has been born of God? Does love precede or follow being born of God?

The same exact language in 5:1 Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. So what are we to conclude about every single person who believes that Jesus is the Christ? That they HAVE BEEN born of God. Before they believed they were born of God. Before they did righteousness they were born of God. Before they loved they were born of God. They love, do righteousness and believe because they HAVE BEEN born of God.

I would like to point out in these verse which you've mentioned that all of the instances of "born" are passive in Greek. That is to say, the subject is acted upon. So, obviously, there is something being done to the subject which results in his or her believing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[moral necessity]

Here's the best book on the subject I've ever read. http://www.christianbook.com/a-treatise-on-regeneration/peter-van-mastricht/9781573581332/pd/58133X

As others have said, the term is used two ways: (1) initial making alive that which was dead (2) restoring from a corrupted state to that of no corruption. For #1, what is dead cannot put forth faith until it be made alive first. For #2, this will not conclude until glory.


Blessings!

 

[percho]

Here's the best book on the subject I've ever read. http://www.christianbook.com/a-treatise-on-regeneration/peter-van-mastricht/9781573581332/pd/58133X

As others have said, the term is used two ways: (1) initial making alive that which was dead (2) restoring from a corrupted state to that of no corruption. For #1, what is dead cannot put forth faith until it be made alive first. For #2, this will not conclude until glory.


Blessings!

This is exactly what I have been saying except I understand you do not mean the same thing I do.

However Jesus and Jesus alone is the one who has died and then been given eternal not to see corruption again life, therefore he is called the firstborn from the dead, yet there will be others born from the dead in the same manner he was then he will be the firstborn of many brethren.

Isn't this what the word of Gods says?

 

[percho]

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We shall be saved (osas I guess whenever it takes place) by the life his.

Is this his regenerated resurrected life or when he was born of Mary or both or did he have both?

Is this the kind of life we shall be saved by? 1 Thes. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Heb.9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Just food for thought.

What do you think?

 

[Alive in Christ]

I have family in Kentucky.

P.S. Everyone in Kentucky is a Wildcats fan. There isn't much else to do... JK

Ummm, except for the smarter and wiser and classier Kentuckians who are fans of the (((LOUISVILLE CARDINALS!))) :thumbs:

Go Cards! Beat Kentucky! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

I would like to point out in these verse which you've mentioned that all of the instances of "born" are passive in Greek. That is to say, the subject is acted upon. So, obviously, there is something being done to the subject which results in his or her believing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

If I recall, this has been debated recently and this was not proven to be the case. I cannot recall which thread, but John of Japan was involved, and it was a good "Greek duel" between the 2 of you.

 

[zrs6v4]

Jesus said that in order to SEE the Kingdom of God you must be born again. I John 5:1 says it as well. I saw you addressed that below so I will deal with that momentarily.

Look at John 3, Jesus is using language from Ezekiel 36. It is speaking of the New Covenant. Ask observation questions like What is the kingdom of God? One must ask, "Is Jesus speaking of the complete event of salvation by saying born again?" What if He means that the Spirit does a sovereign work in bringing someone to faith in Him? The Spirit enables spiritual senses? and being born again is synonomous with having been completely renewed by the work of the Spirit. Born again in this passage could simply mean the completed work of grace that was started and finished by the work of the Spirit.

Lets stop and talk about John 3 "contextually" (use Biblical theology). Jesus said Nobody can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Ok lets think. Who understood what Jesus was doing at that time? did the Pharisees? did the followers? did the disciples? It seemed that nobody really understood, but maybe John the Baptist to some extent. I keep thinking in the context of John's Gospel. As I recall the disciples really didn't know what Jesus was about, they had the struggle of understanding Him in light of the Old Testament Scripture. It seemed that they didn't understand the work of paying for sin either because they all scattered at His arrest. In John 14-17 we see that they were next to blind, did not talk directly to the Father, didn't remember much of what Jesus did during His 3 year ministry (didn't connect the dots) etc... When did they finally remember and understand the Scriptures? Was it not upon the receiving of the Holy Spirit after the ascension? I find it interesting to ponder the idea that the Holy Spirit=seeing the kingdom of God can that actually be what He is saying born again means? recieving the Spirit? Funny He used the wind analogy because of what happened at Pentecost. By the way "see" kingdom of God in this context means the present work of Jesus kingdom based on what Nicodemus confessed in John 3:2.

To reason further I want to talk about why Jesus then said you can't enter unless born of water and Spirit. Why? Ezekiel 36:25-27. The completed work of salvation by the grace of God. I again want to tell you that I am arguing in favor of Calvinism, besides the the view of regeneration. Your thinking I don't understand Calvinism or human depravity. I want to tell you that I do and I don't mean that arrogantly. The human becomes born again completely after they have been washed by Jesus (John 13:8). We are are differently using the term born again. I argue what you believe regeneration means is actually similar to what the Spirit does, but isn't what is meant by Jesus in John 3. It is the Spirit who comes to us, opens our eyes, illuminates us, defeats the bondage of our sin, and leads us effectually to Christ. How does the Spirit do this, the entirety of the work is regeneration, just not a single event.

I think the Spirit's illumination IS what regenerates. A dead mind cannot understand or comprehend. I believe the light of the Gospel brings life like the light of the sun in Spring. It gives life then understanding.

logically it makes sense with assumptions. You must define spiritually dead, Biblically? It is vital we define spiritual life. I will say I do not know how a Calvinist would define spiritual life.

No more than a leopard can change his spots or an ethiopian his skin can a man accustomed to doing evil do good. To obey the Gospel is good. A dead sinner cannot do good. So he must be made somethign MORE than a dead sinner- he is made alive. That is regeneration.

Can the Spirit cause a 100% evil person (to the core) to believe? I agree that it is not a matter of words, but there must a type of gift. What would regeneration look like in your eyes? is it a command of God to the soul during the preaching of the Gospel to understand, to see? What about Spiritual life would cause the will of a 100% evil sinner do to cause the person to obey the gospel?

Yes, it absolutely does. If you believe in Jesus you have been born again already. That still means that being born again precedes believing in Jesus.

Lets put it this way. Everyone who is currently believing has been born again. It doesn't place born again before faith. It shows the connection between the two not so much the logical order.

Whoever believes in Jesus HAS BEEN born again. In other words there is NNE who believes in Jesus who has NOT been born again.

Yes. Again, this is the connection between the two, not so much the order in which they happened. I'm a believer now, I've been born again. The 14 year old child is a believer and has been born again. Your statement would fit in Arminian theology as well.

This is Johanan language. In 2:29 it says- "Whosoever does righteousness has been born of God." So when you see anyone who does righteousness, what are you to conclude? That that person was born of God. The last thing you would conclude is that the doing righteousness PRECEDED the being born of God.

Did John intend for this saying to be taken this far, as to say that your act of righteousness by believing was a result of being born again? What did he want to let the hearers know? Why did he make this statement? Someone who has been practicing righteousness has been born of God. Not necessarily to take this statement logically into the ground. I will give it to you that a dead sinner who is dead in sin (Eph. 2), slaves of sin (John 8), love darkness (John 3), have no desire for God or good (Romans 3), and at enmity against God (Romans 8:7) needs a work of the Spirit. Can the Spirit not cause him to do good apart from the Calvinist definition of born again?

You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins. God made you alive spiritually because you were dead spiritually.

Lets look at Ephesians 2. Maybe you can better understand my view. I know I sound argumentive, and I want to just agree with you and continue to hold the Calvinistic view of regeneration, but Biblically I have not been proven wrong in the sense that I can confidently embrace your view (which has been my view of regeneration for 2 years in which I am reviewing).

Eph 2:1-3- Just like you said, men are dead in sin. In other words un responsive to good or God apart from God's work of Grace within them.

4-5 a complete work of God's grace on a saving mission by His will. For His glory if we read Ephesians 1. We were dead and in opposition to God, and He came down and swooped us up by His power through the work of the trinity in salvation.

5-7 speaks of the compeleted work of salvation and how God made us alive with Christ.

8-10: it is a total work of God teamed with our faith (which is secondary in relation to God's will, IE it is affected by God's will). Notice we are created in Christ, which is to say we are made completely new by the work of Christ. I don't think the context of this is speaking of the Calvinist view of regeneration. It is more broad in speaking of salvation.

 

[The Archangel]

If I recall, this has been debated recently and this was not proven to be the case. I cannot recall which thread, but John of Japan was involved, and it was a good "Greek duel" between the 2 of you.

The Greek is the Greek. Dr. Tom Schreiner agrees with my argument. Though I have the utmost respect for John of Japan, I will take Schreiner's word since he is a Greek and a New Testament scholar par excellence.

The Archangel