"Does Regeneration Precede or Follow Faith" part 2

[zrs6v4]

I replied to your message note.

Thanks for your reply

You messaged me in response and said, "I believe this passage makes it clear...

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

This passage shows God putting a new heart and spirit within us. As you have demonstrated, there are many texts that say this. Ezekiel 36:25-27 does as well

God will do this:
1. forgive sin v. 25
2. give a new heart and new spirit a heart of flesh. v. 26
3. give the Holy Spirit v. 27

Why does giving a new heart equate Jesus words in John 3? I don't disagree, but please explain your thinking. Couldn't God's "giving a new heart" be something different than being born again? I would still call it part of the work of regeneration, but my focus is on explaining John 3. thanks again

 

[Winman]

and another passage....

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, ....(IN ORDER)........to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Sounds like 1 John...no?

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deut 30:6 does not help you. It shows a work upon the heart before life. Calvinism teaches that life must occur first.

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

 

[Jarthur001]

Maybe one of the most CLEAR passage....

John 9-10.

In chapter 9 there is the account of Jesus giving sight to a blind man that was blind from birth. Just like all men are blind to God at birth. Now, this healing did not translate into the Jewish leaders believing. So...when in Chapter 20 it says..these signs were recorded that you may believe, it does not mean if you seen the sign, you would believe. The Jews saw it, and did not believe. Now why? The story tells us why.

In the account the blind man does not know that Jesus is near by. He cannot see. The account does not say he cried out to Jesus. It says, Jesus saw him and opened his eyes without the blind man asking him to open his eyes. After the eyes are open, Jesus asked,

35 ........... “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

The Man says...who is the Son of Man?

37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

Eyes open (new birth)....THEN...I believe. Its pretty clear.

Now notice what Jesus says next...

39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

This is the point of the healing.

Jesus did not heal all the blind men but when he heals this one he is making a point. Healing physically blind men is not the ministry of Christ, but this sign was given to us so that we can understand what happens at salvation. Even more, Jesus is trying to teach others WHY the Jewish leaders would not believe.

Verse 39 is talking about salvation. The Jews said..., “What? Are we blind too?” They could see with physically eyes, but they still understood Jesus was talking a other blindness. In other words they were saying...."wait...are you saying we are blind???

The blind man is a picture of all believers when they are given SIGHT to understand. The Jews could not understand because they were BLIND. After the EYES are opened...then Jesus saves them.

In Chapter 10 which is the same sitting as chapter 9, Jesus gives us a story that shows why they don't believe again. The non-believe is NOT of the sheep. And...Jesus does not go after the goats, because they dont hear.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
​

His sheep knows him....and they come when they are called. Calls his sheep...they listen because they are His. He dies for them, and the point is out of love he dies for them, which means if he died for all, it would not be much love shown.

So...they cannot and will not follow him, unless they are his sheep. (after they are born again).

In other words...The gospel says come....but they do not come, for they are not his. One must be a sheep before they follow.

 

[Winman]

37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

Eyes open (new birth)....THEN...I believe. Its pretty clear.

You are wrong. You simply cannot have life until you believe. Yes, his eyes were opened, yes he could see, but he had not believed on Jesus yet so he was still dead in his sins.

You will absolutely NEVER find any scripture that says you can have life before you believe. There are MANY verses that show you must believe to have life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What is John talking about when he says "these are written". Why, he is talking about the Book of John. And why did John write this book? So we could believe. Can a person read the Book of John and not believe? Yes.

But get this, it would be impossible to believe these scriptures if they were not written. You can't believe scriptures you have never seen, that is an impossibility.

But then it clearly says "and that believeing ye might have life".

You can't have life without believeing. The blind man whom Jesus healed had physical sight after Jesus healed him, but he did not have life until he believed on Jesus.

 

[Jarthur001]

Sorry guys...I need to sign off. I will try and be back Monday.


But I'll give you a short reply..

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deut 30:6 does not help you. It shows a work upon the heart before life. Calvinism teaches that life must occur first.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed,>>>>>>>> to Love (or in order to love)... the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, >>>>>>>> that thou >>>>>mayest live.

Mayest in the KJV is not a option here, but a reason for the new heart....in order that they MAY live.

******

NEXT...

This passage shows God putting a new heart and spirit within us. As you have demonstrated, there are many texts that say this. Ezekiel 36:25-27 does as well

Indeed.

God will do this:
1. forgive sin v. 25
2. give a new heart and new spirit a heart of flesh. v. 26
3. give the Holy Spirit v. 27

1) Forgive sin....on the cross. Jesus said it is FINISHED not i'm done and you must now do your part.
2) give a new heart....New birth is next. This opens the eyes that they may believe. With the old heart they will never believe.
3) give the Holy Spirit...All believers have the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14

Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

​

Notice again...the natural dead men CANNOT...not a matter of his will....or it is not saying he WILL NOT.....he CANNOT receive the Holy Spirit. Well how is he saved?
He must be born again.....have a new heart.

2. give a new heart and new spirit a heart of flesh. v. 26
3. give the Holy Spirit v. 27

Peace....james

 

[Winman]

You can be given light by the Lord and not believe. I bet in the last year I have shown Hebrews 6 a dozen times to Calvinists. I cannot remember even a single time that a Calvinist has responded to these verses. Why? Because they can't. There is simply no way to make these verses work in Calvinism.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This passage shows a person who has been enlightened, they have tasted of the heavenly gift, they are made partakers of the Holy Ghost, they have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, they were close to repentance, and yet they fall away in unbelief and are lost forever.

I have heard preachers say this is the most terrifying passage in all scripture. And it is.

Calvinism cannot handle this passage, because it believes a person who has been enlightened and a partaker of the Holy Ghost must be regenerated. But Calvinism also believes God's grace is irresistable, and also that a regenerated person will persevere and never be lost.

So, this passage is a HUGE problem for Calvinism.

The truth is, you can be enlightened by the word of God. You can realize you are a sinner and need to trust Jesus. You know it is true. But you can still turn away in unbelief.
The young rich ruler was exactly like this. He wanted eternal life. He knew Jesus was from God. He understood the commandments. But when Jesus told him to give his wealth to the poor and follow him he refused. He loved his wealth and position more than God. But he was enlightened, he knew exactly what he must do to inherit eternal life. So, God's grace is not irresistable as Calvinism teaches.

Now, that is hard to believe, but that is what the scriptures show. Just a few verses later we see Zacchaeus, another very wealthy and powerful man choose everlasting life over his earthly wealth.

Cain could have given an acceptable sacrifice. God gave him a chance to repent and said he would be accepted. But Cain turned away. He was enlightened, he knew what he had to do, he heard God's word.

So, don't confuse enlightenment with regeneration. You are not regenerated, you do not have life until you believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

You are wrong. You simply cannot have life until you believe. Yes, his eyes were opened, yes he could see, but he had not believed on Jesus yet so he was still dead in his sins.

You will absolutely NEVER find any scripture that says you can have life before you believe.

other than the ones I posted???



Look you reject what has been posted. No need to go on. Its pretty clear to me. You disagree.


PEACE...James

 

[Jarthur001]

You can be given light by the Lord and not believe. I bet in the last year I have shown Hebrews 6 a dozen times to Calvinists. I cannot remember even a single time that a Calvinist has responded to these verses. Why? Because they can't. There is simply no way to make these verses work in Calvinism.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Calvinism cannot handle this passage, because it believes a person who has been enlightened and a partaker of the Holy Ghost must be regenerated. But Calvinism also believes God's grace is irresistable, and also that a regenerated person will persevere and never be lost.

So, this passage is a HUGE problem for Calvinism.

I wish I had time.

Do you even know what this passage is talking about??? Salvation??

please don't say I can't handly this, if you have not heard what I have to say. Again you jump to your vistory dance before you ask.

Do a search for old threads, it may surprise you.

 

[Winman]

I wish I had time.

Do you even know what this passage is talking about??? Salvation??

please don't say I can't handly this, if you have not heard what I have to say. Again you jump to your vistory dance before you ask.

Do a search for old threads, it may surprise you.

Oh, you think I got it wrong? Well, let's see what Matthew Henry believed this passage said.

1. He shows how far persons may go in religion, and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, v. 4, 5. (1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were opened (Num. 24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter darkness. (2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ. (3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace. (4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them. (5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn apostates. Now hence observe, [1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is here said of apostates. [2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints. These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots will not stand.

Matthew Henry was a Calvinist, but he got this passage right.

 

[TCGreek]

It follows faith.

 

[jbh28]

Maybe, just maybe, regeneration and faith happen at the exact same time. It seems to me that the Bible teaches that one must believe to have life and one must have life to believe. Both concepts are true. Anytime in Scripture that I see a person that has received life, regenerated....they are a saved person. I don't believe a person can be regenerated without also receiving faith. I also don't believe a person can have faith that is unregenerate.

 

[zrs6v4]

Maybe, just maybe, regeneration and faith happen at the exact same time. It seems to me that the Bible teaches that one must believe to have life and one must have life to believe. Both concepts are true. Anytime in Scripture that I see a person that has received life, regenerated....they are a saved person. I don't believe a person can be regenerated without also receiving faith. I also don't believe a person can have faith that is unregenerate.

I have come to the conclusion that it is a matter of definition.

Either regeneration means a giving of spiritual life
or it means the complete New Covenant promise of washing and indwelling of the Spirit upon ones life. I tend to fall to the Calvinist side on all aspect of salvation, yet disagree with the Biblical definition of born again although I believe God does do the work in a sinners heart (effectual call) to bring them to faith.

 

[The Archangel]

I don't think of a no reply as a victory. If a person conceded that there are truly many verses that clearly show faith precedes regeneration, that would be a victory.

Failing to reply simply shows a person doesn't have the character to admit when they are wrong. Hardly a victory for me or them.

Be very careful here, friend. I was out for the evening with my family and you should never consider my not responding to you as an admission of anything.

Now, when you say "Failing to reply simply shows a person doesn't have the character..." you must be very careful. You have impugned my character simply because I was out for dinner and shopping and didn't answer according to your time-frame...how juvenile.

What is more, all the verses you posted were ripped from their context and did not address anything that you claimed they addressed. This is why I chose not to address your posts.

You are up to your tricks--feebly deal with a verse (usually, as in this case, a verse which other people are discussing). You bring other verses in (which are from different books or contexts) and you attempt to obfuscate the discussion that is going on. And, when you are clearly pinned on a particular context that you break or a wrong translation from the KJV or something else, you don't address those posts and run on to ripping other verses from their context and obfuscating other discussions.

Since, you have never been able or willing to "play nice" in a discussion with me and since I don't feel like repeating myself over and over and over again, I have chosen not to address your posts. Quite simply, you are not with the keystrokes.

The Archangel

 

[jbh28]

I have come to the conclusion that it is a matter of definition.

Either regeneration means a giving of spiritual life
or it means the complete New Covenant promise of washing and indwelling of the Spirit upon ones life. I tend to fall to the Calvinist side on all aspect of salvation, yet disagree with the Biblical definition of born again although I believe God does do the work in a sinners heart (effectual call) to bring them to faith.

Yes, much of the debate is about defining your terms.

What do you disagree with as far as born again? Did you mean that you disagree with the "Biblical definition"? Do you believe the non-biblical. Or did you mean the Calvinistic definition? I know calvinistic and biblical can be used synonymously. I just had to throw that out there....but really, what were you saying you were disagreeing with?

 

[zrs6v4]

Yes, much of the debate is about defining your terms.

What do you disagree with as far as born again? Did you mean that you disagree with the "Biblical definition"? Do you believe the non-biblical. Or did you mean the Calvinistic definition? I know calvinistic and biblical can be used synonymously. I just had to throw that out there....but really, what were you saying you were disagreeing with?

I usually disagree with disagreeing. thanks for pointing that out..

I am beginning to lean toward disagreement of the Calvinist definition of born again in accordance to John 3 based on the passage not being so clear. I will say that their view is still a possibility in my mind. Id say Im 65% in disagreement and 35% in agreement. I do not disagree with them in that it is a complete work of the Spirit in bringing us to Christ and that God mysteriously does a work on our fallen inner man to sovereignly bring us to Himself. I feel that most likely the majority of the passages used, such as John 3 or titus 3:5 seem to be emphasizing New Covenant language. It is very possible I am wrong so I will keep thinking

 

[quantumfaith]

It follows faith.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Succint, articulate and to the point. I like it. Thanks

 

[quantumfaith]

Maybe, just maybe, regeneration and faith happen at the exact same time. It seems to me that the Bible teaches that one must believe to have life and one must have life to believe. Both concepts are true. Anytime in Scripture that I see a person that has received life, regenerated....they are a saved person. I don't believe a person can be regenerated without also receiving faith. I also don't believe a person can have faith that is unregenerate.

A resonable and tenable position, from my humble perspective. Thanks for sharing.

 

[percho]

Because very few will go back to the other thread I would like to ask one question and receive a bunch of answers.


Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead. his soul was not left in hades.

Was this regeneration?

 

[The Archangel]

Because very few will go back to the other thread I would like to ask one question and receive a bunch of answers.


Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead. his soul was not left in hades.

Was this regeneration?

I would say no.

We would define regeneration as the bringing to life of a dead heart. The Puritans called this "Quickening." This quickening is happens before salvation. The quickening is not salvation itself, but it does inevitably and irrevocably lead to salvation.

Jesus, though dead, buried, and raised, had no need to be "regenerated." If you are talking about His being raised from the dead, that would simply be a resurrection (or The resurrection).

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[percho]

I would say no.

We would define regeneration as the bringing to life of a dead heart. The Puritans called this "Quickening." This quickening is happens before salvation. The quickening is not salvation itself, but it does inevitably and irrevocably lead to salvation.

Jesus, though dead, buried, and raised, had no need to be "regenerated." If you are talking about His being raised from the dead, that would simply be a resurrection (or The resurrection).

Blessings,

The Archangel

You know the word in used twice. How is it used in Matthew as in your explanation or as in my question. I am going to post something twice because I will move the comma. KJV

That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory

That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory

Jesus says this in the next chapter which I believe is relative to this.

Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,(and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.) (washing of) much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (regeneration)

I believe Titus 3:5 is speaking of what Jesus did and received not us. I can elaborate on this and v 6 if you like.

Does this make sense whether you think true or not?