"Does Regeneration Precede or Follow Faith" part 2

[The Archangel]

Amazing, you quote the very verse that answers your question, yet are oblivious to it. Read Ephesians 1:13 again.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What does this verse say occured first? It says ye trusted AFTER ye heard the word of truth. So the very first thing that happened was hearing the word of truth, the scriptures.

So, what happened second? It says they trusted (believed, had faith) the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

What happened next? It says they were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.

This verse shows in order;

#1 Hearing the word of God, the gospel of salvation
#2 Trusting or believeing the gospel
#3 Being sealed with the Holy Spirit

I don't know why I bother...but here goes.

Ephesians 1:13 is NOT saying what you are saying it says.

In the original Greek there is no "After." That is a wrong invention of the KJV translators.

The verse simply says (and this is a wooden translation): In whom also you having heard the word of the truth, the the good news of your salvation, in whom also having trusted you were sealed in the promised Holy Spirit.

The two words the KJV supplies "after" to are 1.) Having heard and 2.) having trusted. This is an incorrect translation.

The verb "were sealed" is also an Aorist Passive Indicative, indicating a summary, snapshot (the Aorist) of God's action of sealing the believer (the Passive)

Both of these words are Aorist Active Participles, the Aorist, again, signifying a summary action presented in its entirety. So, there is no "after" or any cause and effect here.

The verse is simply stating when someone hears and believes the Gospel, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

But, and this is big, you are divorcing Ephesians 1:13 from its greater context. The context stream starts in 1:3:

[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, [4] even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [5] he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. [7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, [8] which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight [9] making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ [10] as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
[11] In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, [12] so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. [13] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14 ESV)
​

In the passage, God is doing many things to bring people to Himself:

1. God chose believers in Christ before the foundation of the world (4)

2. God predestined believers to be adopted through Jesus Christ (5)

3. God gives believers redemption through the blood of Christ (7)

4. God gives believers an inheritance, because He chose/predestined to do so (11)

5. God seals believers with the Holy Spirit when they hear the Gospel and believe (13)

Furthermore, Calvinists never claim (to my knowledge) that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the same thing as regeneration.

This is what the verse says, and you are taking it wrongly and pushing it into a form the text simply will not allow.

The Archangel

 

[percho]

Amazing, you quote the very verse that answers your question, yet are oblivious to it. Read Ephesians 1:13 again.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What does this verse say occured first? It says ye trusted AFTER ye heard the word of truth. So the very first thing that happened was hearing the word of truth, the scriptures.

So, what happened second? It says they trusted (believed, had faith) the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

What happened next? It says they were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.

This verse shows in order;

#1 Hearing the word of God, the gospel of salvation
#2 Trusting or believeing the gospel
#3 Being sealed with the Holy Spirit

In John, Jesus promised that present believers would receive the Holy Spirit later.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

These people were present believers when Jesus said this. But they did not have the Holy Spirit yet. How in the world could they be regenerated if they did not have the Holy Spirit? They couldn't, and yet they were believers.

In the early days a person might receive the Holy Spirit some time later after they believed (which shows the unregenerate can believe). An example of this is in Romans.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul asked these Ephesians if they had received the Holy Ghost "since" they believed? Now why in the world would Paul ask such a ridiculous question if a person has to be regenerated first by the Holy Spirit to have the ability to believe?

So, you see, the scriptures clearly show a person does not receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER they trust on Christ.

And you cannot be regenerated without the Holy Spirit.

Keep asking questions, it is easy to show you that faith precedes regeneration, there are probably many dozens of scriptures that say so.

Edit- I didn't answer your direct question. Did Paul immediately believe Jesus was the Christ? No, he questioned it, look for yourself.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Was Paul regenerated when he asked "Who art thou Lord?". I don't think so, unless you believe a person can be born again without knowing who the Lord is.

What happened next? Jesus revealed himself through his word, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

Is Paul regenerated here? No, Jesus said he is kicking against the pricks. What does that mean? It means Paul was resisting the truth that Jesus was Lord. Paul was not unfamiliar with this teaching, he was present when Stephen was stoned, he had heard the gospel before. He did not believe it, in fact, he was persecuting Christians. Does a regenerated person persecute Jesus?

But as soon as Jesus revealed himself by speaking his name, what did Paul say next?

"And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"

Now, this is the very moment Paul was saved, when he heard God's word and believed it.

And... Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit until three days later!

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

You are correct. All the time previously to this day Paul was persecuting people that believed that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. Paul knew who the person was for whom he was persecuting. The belief did not come from the one being called but from the one doing the calling/electing. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

To our knowledge those with Paul did not believe.

 

[percho]

Of course I understand I probably stand alone. And that is OK. My post 76 is where all the meat is concerning regeneration. We are neither saved or regenerated by the Holy Spirit being shed upon us but it is given to them that God calls as an earnest / assurance of being regenerated and by which that regeneration will occur as in Romans 8:11 when the age of the regeneration arrives.

I would love comments from all on post 76 and the word of God accuracy of that post or inaccurate. By the way to my knowledge most of this has come to me in the middle of sleepless nights. It is like someone showing me how to line up scripture. Sometimes I know I have heard them but have to google to find them.

 

[Winman]

You are correct. All the time previously to this day Paul was persecuting people that believed that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. Paul knew who the person was for whom he was persecuting. The belief did not come from the one being called but from the one doing the calling/electing. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

To our knowledge those with Paul did not believe.

The others did not hear the word of God.

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

All the other men saw the light, but were not saved. Why not? Because they did not hear Jesus's voice. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And Paul wasn't magically regenerated just because the Lord appeared to him. It was only after Jesus's spoke to him and identified himself that Paul truly believed Jesus was the Son of God.

You will always see this. Was the Philipian jailer regenerated when he asked how to be saved? No, because Paul told him he needed to believe on Jesus to be saved. But if you read a little more you will see he did not actually believe on Jesus until after Paul preached the word of God to him. See for yourself.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The Philpian jailer didn't believe until he took Paul and Silas home and they preached the word of God to him. And notice they also preached the word of God to everyone in his house. After hearing the word of God they all believed and were saved.

You will never find anywhere in scripture where a person is magically regenerated to believe. They must always hear and believe the word of God to be saved. Always.

 

[Winman]

In the original Greek there is no "After." That is a wrong invention of the KJV translators.

The verse simply says (and this is a wooden translation): In whom also you having heard the word of the truth, the the good news of your salvation, in whom also having trusted you were sealed in the promised Holy Spirit.

That is saying the exact same thing! "Having heard" is past tense as is "having trusted", so the KJB translation is perfectly accurate.

Your modern versions agree:

NIV

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

ESV

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

NASB

Eph 1:13 In *Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also *believed, you were sealed in *Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

So, your MVs do not help you one bit. They all show a person first hears the gospel, then believes the gospel, and then and only then are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Archangel]

That is saying the exact same thing! "Having heard" is past tense as is "having trusted", so the KJB translation is perfectly accurate.

Your modern versions agree:

NIV

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

ESV

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

NASB

Eph 1:13 In *Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also *believed, you were sealed in *Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

So, your MVs do not help you one bit. They all show a person first hears the gospel, then believes the gospel, and then and only then are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

No, it isn't "past tense." It is Aorist Tense. And while the English correctly renders it as "past" is is not as simple as that.

If, and this is a big "if," the verb "you were sealed" were not also Aorist, you might be correct. But, Paul is not making a case that there is cause and effect. He is saying: "At some point in the past the believer heard the Gospel, believed the Gospel, and was sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Now, I agree that hearing the Gospel and believing the Gospel must take place before being sealed with the Holy Spirit. The problem is that you are using this verse in a way that Paul never intended--he never intended to show an A+B=C progression. The participles and verb are all simple "snapshots" of past completed actions. If anything, this passage argues that all these things happen at the same time. But, it is certain, there is no concept of progression.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

No, it isn't "past tense." It is Aorist Tense. And while the English correctly renders it as "past" is is not as simple as that.

If, and this is a big "if," the verb "you were sealed" were not also Aorist, you might be correct. But, Paul is not making a case that there is cause and effect. He is saying: "At some point in the past the believer heard the Gospel, believed the Gospel, and was sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Now, I agree that hearing the Gospel and believing the Gospel must take place before being sealed with the Holy Spirit. The problem is that you are using this verse in a way that Paul never intended--he never intended to show an A+B=C progression. The participles and verb are all simple "snapshots" of past completed actions. If anything, this passage argues that all these things happen at the same time. But, it is certain, there is no concept of progression.

The Archangel

Man, we sure are lucky to have educated folks like you to explain scripture to us. Ephesians 1:13 seemed so simple and straightforward, I actually believed I understood it.

 

[kyredneck]

Man, we sure are lucky to have educated folks like you to explain scripture to us.......

We indeed are fortunate to have scholars of the calibur of Archangel here on board with us.

 

[moral necessity]

Moral Necessity wrote:



On the contrary, most Calvinists I have been dealing with here for over a year define regeneration as life. They often directly compare the unregenerate to a dead person or corpse. They will say a dead person or corpse cannot perform any function, and say the unregenerate likewise cannot come to God, or believe in Jesus. They insist a person must be made spiritually alive in order to have the ability to come to God and trust in Christ.

But as I have argued, this is impossible. You cannot possibly be spiritually alive until you trust on Jesus and have your sins forgiven. Until you trust Jesus you are dead in sins, you are condemned already, the wrath of God abides on you... There are probably dozens of scriptures that clearly show a person cannot have spiritual life until AFTER they believe on Jesus.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16 is as clear as it gets. The person who believes on Jesus shall be saved, the person who has not believed on Jesus is damned. Believeing is the cause, being saved is the effect.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Does John 20:31 say these scriptures were written so that we may live in order that we believe? No, it says they are written so we can believe, and that believeing we might have life. Believeing is the cause, life is the effect.

There is not a single verse in all the Bible that supports a person having spiritual life before believeing on Jesus. There are probably dozens that all show a person must first believe in order to have spiritual life.

Of course, this destroys the Calvinist view of Total Depravity, because it shows the unregenerate has the ability to believe God's promises.

My purpose here was to weed out the confusion between "the eternal life received upon believing" with "the awakening of or making alive the spiritually dead so that they can believe". The second is what Calvinists call regeneration.

Are you trying to say that no work of God is required to happen to us prior to believing? Surely not, for only Pelagians say that, and Augustine thoroughly dealt with them 1700 years ago. Even Arminius himself believed a work of God had to occur first to enable a person to believe. Read his own words yourself.



"WORKS OF ARMINIUS - GRACE AND FREE WILL
PREVIOUS SECTION - NEXT SECTION - HELP

IV. GRACE AND FREE WILL

Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace. That I may not be said, like Pelagius, to practice delusion with regard to the word "grace," I mean by it that which is the grace of Christ and which belongs to regeneration. I affirm, therefore, that this grace is simply and absolutely necessary for the illumination of the mind, the due ordering of the affections, and the inclination of the will to that which is good. It is this grace which operates on the mind, the affections, and the will; which infuses good thoughts into the mind, inspires good desires into the actions, and bends the will to carry into execution good thoughts and good desires. This grace goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co-operates lest we will in vain. It averts temptations, assists and grants succour in the midst of temptations, sustains man against the flesh, the world and Satan, and in this great contest grants to man the enjoyment of the victory. It raises up again those who are conquered and have fallen, establishes and supplies them with new strength, and renders them more cautious. This grace commences salvation, promotes it, and perfects and consummates it.

I confess that the mind of a natural and carnal man is obscure and dark, that his affections are corrupt and inordinate, that his will is stubborn and disobedient, and that the man himself is dead in sins. And I add to this -- that teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace, provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will to that which is evil.

I do not perceive what can be further required from me. Let it only be pointed out, and I will consent to give it, or I will shew that I ought not to give such an assent. Therefore, neither do I perceive with what justice I can be calumniated on this point, since I have explained these my sentiments, with sufficient plainness, in the theses on free will which were publicly disputed in the university."





This is what Ezek.37 is about also, with the valley of dry bones. This is the "regeneration" that Calvinists speak of, as well as Arminius. God says, "'Son of man, can these bones live?' And I answered, 'O Lord God, you know.' Again He said to me, 'Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.' Thus says the Lord God to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord."

And in vs.12, he says, "Thus says the Lord God, 'Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, my people. I will put my Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land.'"

Blessings and fellowship

 

[The Archangel]

Man, we sure are lucky to have educated folks like you to explain scripture to us dummies. Ephesians 1:13 seemed so simple and straightforward, I actually believed I understood it.

But after listening to you expound scripture, it's all so perfectly clear.

Ah...and here we have the "Winman" tactic: Don't address anything of substance in the post (Especially after having been proved wrong), attack your opponent with an ad hominem, adding a "liar-liar-pants-on-fire" kind of response, and generally acting like a grade-schooler.

Nice. Some day, you might learn to play nice with others.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Ah...and here we have the "Winman" tactic: Don't address anything of substance in the post (Especially after having been proved wrong), attack your opponent with an ad hominem, adding a "liar-liar-pants-on-fire" kind of response, and generally acting like a grade-schooler.

Nice. Some day, you might learn to play nice with others.

The Archangel

A picture speaks a thousand words. The picture I showed represented your confusing double-talk. You take a thousand words to try to explain a verse (falsely) that a child could easily understand.

If anything, this passage argues that all these things happen at the same time.

This is laughable, even your MVs show that a person first hears the gospel, then believes the gospel, and only then is sealed by the Holy Spirit. You really should translate the scriptures for us, seeing how you know Greek and Hebrew better than the KJB translators, or even the men who translated the MVs.

[offensive remarks removed]

 

[The Archangel]

A picture speaks a thousand words. The picture I showed represented your confusing double-talk. You take a thousand words to try to explain a verse (falsely) that a child could easily understand.

This is laughable, even your MVs show that a person first hears the gospel, then believes the gospel, and only then is sealed by the Holy Spirit. You really should translate the scriptures for us, seeing how you know Greek and Hebrew better than the KJB translators, or even the men who translated the MVs.

Just to let you know, when your congregation is scratching their heads, it's not because of a dandruff problem.

You seem to forget that my translation agreed with the modern versions. It is you that are reading the "after" into the modern translations because, I imagine, you can't get over the KJV, as it has translated this passage wrongly.

Again, you offer nothing of substance. You are apparently incapable of addressing the matter at hand from the Greek. No, instead, you insult.

I guess playing nice with others is something you are simply not capable of. It's a shame.

And what will Christ think of your insults of me and others?

The Archangel

 

[rsr]

Having reached page 10, and having descended to the sandbox, this thread is closed.