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Does the Bible teach Spiritual Death?

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Thank you JonC for that.

Here are two things you should know.

Lk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What could be more intimate than having God indwelling you in the person of his Spirit? Do you accept the fact that Jesus Christ is Soul, Body, and Spirit on this very day, 7/272020?

God uses these 3 words in the NT.

Regeneration
Restoration
Renew
I agree completely. That is, actually, my point. We have a more intimate relationship with God in Christ than man could ever know under the "First Adam". The relationship that man once had with God through Adam (prior to the Fall) is not just restored but men are reconciled to God in a way that Adam did not realize in his lifetime. We share in the Life, in Christ, as a new creation in this world. I think that this is the Promise of Genesis 3.
 

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is a wonderful topic to discuss and thank you for beginning in Gen 3.

If God through Christ is restoring what Adam lost, and I think that is the idea if one compares the first chapters of Genesis with the last two chapters of Revelation. Here are two things that Adam did not seem to know before his fall. 1) That he was naked, and 2) good and evil. One has to wonder why he did not know he was naked. He walked with God. He was in his image. Intelligence wise, he must have been the smartest man who ever lived, at least until Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem. God sure mentions restoration and regeneration in his New Testament. All things sure point to a renewal of the original status of God and man. So, why did he not know he was naked?

One must consider his creation. Soul and body and Spirit. The spiritual nature of Adam was his soul. The physical nature of Adam was his body. The divine nature of Adam was not of himself but was of God. God and Adam were in full accord through the Spirit and communed and had fellowship together. I am reminded just now of the last verse in 2 Cor, which says;

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Of course he is not speaking to all men but all men in Corinth and by extension, all men everywhere who have the Holy Ghost dwelling in their bodies. Obviously men who did not have the Holy Ghost indwelling them through the new birth could not commune with him. The point is that the logical conclusion is that Adam and God communed through the Spirit that was in him in the garden. He was said to be the son of God. Lk 3:38.

The question now is, what kind of body did Adam have? I am going to suggest that his body was like the body of the glorified Jesus Christ. It makes sense to me considering that the hope of the Christian today who has the :earnest" of the Spirit while he waits for what scripture calls the "blessed hope' of the Christian, and the final stage of his salvation, the new body that is like unto the glorious body of Jesus Christ. The apostle John, said in 1 Jn 3
Beloved, "now" are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Paul says this:

Ph 2:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

A glorious body is a glorified body. If it is like the body of Jesus then it will shine brighter than the sun.We have him described in several passages of the Scriptures.


1 Tim 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

In Malachi 3 he is called the Sun of righteousness and when Moses was in his presence, hidden in the cleft of the rock, we have this said;

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

No one should think God cannot accomplish his eternal purpose because of the weakness of man or the wickedness of Satan. What he began he can accomplish and it is through the last Adam, the second man that he does it.

The glorious Adam was clothed with light until he sinned.

What do you think?

Just a few thoughts.

1. Genesis 3:7 does not mean that Adam and Eve did not know they were naked before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They certainly knew their bodies were not covered. When they took of the fruit of the tree they immediately became intimate with sin and their consciences were tainted. They knew shame for the first time. Prior to that there was no shame in their nakedness.

While it is a bit lengthy, Matthew Henry writes:

III. The ultimate consequences of the transgression. Shame and fear seized the criminals, ipso facto—in the fact itself; these came into the world along with sin, and still attend it.

1. Shame seized them unseen, Gen. 3:7; where observe,

(1.) The strong convictions they fell under, in their own bosoms: The eyes of them both were opened. It is not meant of the eyes of the body; these were open before, as appears by this, that the sin came in at them. Jonathan’s eyes were enlightened by eating forbidden fruit (1 Sam. 14:27), that is, he was refreshed and revived by it; but theirs were not so. Nor is it meant of any advances made hereby in true knowledge; but the eyes of their consciences were opened, their hearts smote them for what they had done. Now, when it was too late, they saw the folly of eating forbidden fruit. They saw the happiness they had fallen from, and the misery they had fallen into. They saw a loving God provoked, his grace and favour forfeited, his likeness and image lost, dominion over the creatures gone. They saw their natures corrupted and depraved, and felt a disorder in their own spirits of which they had never before been conscious. They saw a law in their members warring against the law of their minds, and captivating them both to sin and wrath. They saw, as Balaam, when his eyes were opened (Num. 22:31), the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand; and perhaps they saw the serpent that had abused them insulting over them. The text tells us that they saw that they were naked, that is, [1.] That they were stripped, deprived of all the honours and joys of their paradise-state, and exposed to all the miseries that might justly be expected from an angry God. They were disarmed; their defence had departed from them. [2.] That they were shamed, for ever shamed, before God and angels. They saw themselves disrobed of all their ornaments and ensigns of honour, degraded from their dignity and disgraced in the highest degree, laid open to the contempt and reproach of heaven, and earth, and their own consciences. Now see here, First, What a dishonour and disquietment sin is; it makes mischief wherever it is admitted, sets men against themselves disturbs their peace, and destroys all their comforts. Sooner or later, it will have shame, either the shame of true repentance, which ends in glory, or that shame and everlasting contempt to which the wicked shall rise at the great day. Sin is a reproach to any people. Secondly, What deceiver Satan is. He told our first parents, when he tempted them, that their eyes should be opened; and so they were, but not as they understood it; they were opened to their shame and grief, not to their honour nor advantage. Therefore, when he speaks fair, believe him not. The most malicious mischievous liars often excuse themselves with this, that they only equivocate; but God will not so excuse them.

(2.) The sorry shift they made to palliate these convictions, and to arm themselves against them: They sewed, or platted, fig-leaves together; and to cover, at least, part of their shame from one another, they made themselves aprons. See here what is commonly the folly of those that have sinned. [1.] That they are more solicitous to save their credit before men than to obtain their pardon from God; they are backward to confess their sin, and very desirous to conceal it, as much as may be. I have sinned, yet honour me. [2.] That the excuses men make, to cover and extenuate their sins, are vain and frivolous. Like the aprons of fig-leaves, they make the matter never the better, but the worse; the shame, thus hidden, becomes the more shameful. Yet thus we are all apt to cover our transgressions as Adam, Job 31:33."
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
We have been talking about the existence of “spiritual death”. I do not understand how this is even questioned on a Christian board. Scripture speaks specifically to this topic as Jesus spoke of people who were in this state.

We have discussed definitions of “spiritual death”, and I’m sure this discussion will continue.

But what about descriptions of what it is to be “spiritually dead”?

Can we see “spiritual death”? I believe we can. We do not know the state of a soul, but there are “fruits” of the flesh (of “spiritual death”) just as there are “fruits” of the spirit (of “spiritual life”). Much of the New Testament is devoted to these descriptions.

The “spiritually dead” produce fruit such as envy, idolatry, hatred, unforgiveness, seditions, strife, wrath, drunkenness, haughtiness, arrogance, etc. while the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, goodness, faith, gentleness, meekness, etc.

It seems to me that this thread could adopt the words used in the Bible, flesh vs spirit, and the discussion would remain the same. To set one’s mind on the flesh is death while to set one’s mind on the Spirit is life.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Again...Spiritual death has been "passed" from Adam
,Being "dead" spiritually is an active condition of the spirit. The condition is "in tresspasses and sins" and it is an active condition:

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


This active condition of the human "dead" spirit is further characterized in chapter four:

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


This condition of Spirit is the inward cause for the outward consequences of a manifest life of disobedience, just as the quickening of spirit or new birth or new creation is the inward cause for the outward consequences of a manifest life of obedience.

Adam was created "upright" meaning his inward condition of spirit was created in "true holiness and righteousness" or in the moral image of God from which he fell - thus "the fall".

Yes, but they did not die physically in that day as Adam lived to be 930 years of age (Gen.5:). They died spiritually in that day. Spiritual death always precedes physical death and actually is the cause of physical death as spiritual death separates a person from God who is the source of life ("being alienated from the life of God" - Eph. 4:18). Perhaps that is what you were getting at when you said they died that very day?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Spiritual death has been "passed" from Adam

Sorry, don't buy it at all! God does not have two standards of righteousness. Man was made "upright" and without sin and the very definition of sin is violation of God's law and it does not make one whit of difference which law of God is volated.

God made man in his image and that is at minimum a moral image. When Paul describes that image, God's image, he describes it in moral terms "true holiness and righteousness." To claim this is referring to the new creation is simply to side step the real issue. The real issue is that God is immutable and that is his image regardless if it characterizes the new birth and it is in that image Adam was created. The term "upright" proves that and man was "made" upright by God. That is a moral description and God does not have two different moral conditions or moral standards.

But you have two different types of morality, one belonging to Adam inferior to God or in your words "not created as God's MORAL EQUIVILENT." He was not created as God's IMMUTABLE equivilent but he most certainly was created in God's moral equivility - or in righteousness or the righteousness that characterizes God's person, His law, and His Son. But you have one standard of righteousness belonging to Adam and another belonging to God. That is absurdly false simply because God cannot convey a LOWER or INFERIOR kind of righteousness as he has no other standard to convey but the moral equivilent which defines him. Adam was created in the moral image of God "true holiness and righteousness." The only difference, is that he was not created in that moral image immutably, but mutably.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I think it would benefit the discussion to have members who believe the Bible does NOT teach about those who are spiritually dead explain their view (if there are any such people here).

Without an opposing argument there is no "debate". And Scripture is replete with spiritually dead people.

It just seems we are kinda preaching to the choir and patting ourselves on the back for agreeing.

I do believe there is value in defining just what "spiritual life" is, and even if we can lose this life (if it is temporary and if so can it be regained) . I think we can benefit from discussing what "spiritual death" is (I would assume it is an absence of "spiritual life") . But that spiritual life and death are realities seems to be a strawman argument (one without an opposing Christian view).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Moderator note -

Please refrain from reaching one to two years back to quote members who are not here to defend their posts. This is a type of cowardice (trying to make a point without having to take responsibility for one's words).

Please argue your own points, interpretations and understanding.

If you learn from someone great. You have gained something. But argue your own understanding and not the arguments of other people.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The archives are useful.
I am friends with Biblicist. Would you like me to invite him back to this thread???
If I post a link, I stand by it. Biblicist put on a clinic on this topic, and his questions were not addressed, but rather avoided big time.
I was unable to be part of some of these threads, and find them very instructive.


I will ask Biblicist what he wants me to do.I have not bothered him as he is busy, but I could perhaps ask him about this issue.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The archives are useful.
I am friends with Biblicist. Would you like me to invite him back to this thread???
If I post a link, I stand by it. Biblicist put on a clinic on this topic, and his questions were not addressed, but rather avoided big time.
I was unable to be part of these threads, and find them very instructive.


I will ask Biblicist what he wants me to do.I have not bothered him as he is busy, but I could perhaps ask him about this issue.
I left the reference. People can reference the thread.

The Biblicist is welcome to come here and argue his understanding as you are welcome to argue yours.

But we need to maintain the integrity to argue our own understanding and not the understanding of others.

There is no profit in quoting people who are not here to explain, defend, or argue their words. As The Biblicist is not an authority there is no need to reference his posts.

Just use your understanding, @Iconoclast. There is no need to be insecure. Every one makes mistakes (if you are apprehensive, don't be). That's the great thing about online forums. You can brainstorm and test positions without concern. Except for a very few, we're like Planet Fitness - a judgment free zone :)
.
How do you define "spiritual life"?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"JonC,

Just use your understanding, @Iconoclast. There is no need to be insecure. Every one makes mistakes (if you are apprehensive, don't be).

I am not insecure at all. I understand what happened in the early portions of Genesis. I was waiting for my thread to reappear after being examined???
I do not understand why it was removed from view???
What was"reported"? Nothing is being explained???
Is the examination complete?
The thread was temporarily removed from public view so that the Administrators could evaluate a submitted report. I removed it because if the member making the report is correct then it does not need to be on the public forum. If it is deemed appropriate then it will be restored and this one can be merged into that dialogue.[/QUOTE]
???

I contacted Biblicist, I asked him if he wanted me to refrain from posting these helpful links, He is a busy person so I will respect what he thinks on this.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
"JonC,



I am not insecure at all. I understand what happened in the early portions of Genesis. I was waiting for my thread to reappear after being examined???
I do not understand why it was removed from view???
What was"reported"? Nothing is being explained???
Is the examination complete?
A member reported your thread.

I removed it from public view due to the nature of the issue (it would have been inappropriate to leave the thread on the public forum should the report be judged correct) .

I believe the report is correct. It is removed until a decision has been made.

Once a decision is made then those concerned will be notified.

If posts are deemed inappropriate then those who wrote those posts will be informed.

If you were not involved then you will not be informed.

I hope this explains how the process works. We will not discuss moderator actions on the open forum. But as a member I think you are entitled to know the process.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why do we not find the word for, spiritual and the word for, death and also for, life, not together, anywhere inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Is it because it is not necessary?
 

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why do we not find the word for, spiritual and the word for, death and also for, life, not together, anywhere inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Is it because it is not necessary?

I do not understand your question. Are you asking why we do not see the phrase "spiritual death" or "spiritual life" in the Bible? I think it is simple matter of logic and reading comprehension. Look at Ephesians 2:1:

2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

What is the plain normative reading of this passage? Paul is telling the Ephesians believer that they were (past tense) dead in their trespasses and sins. The word for dead is the Greek word "nekros". It means dead as in a corpse (dead body). Obviously, the people Paul was writing to were not dead physically, but they were dead (past tense) spiritually. How do we know that? Because they were dead. They had experienced some type of death. What type of death did they experience? We already know it was not physical death. That leaves only one other possibility. Since they were dead in their trespasses and sins, it is logical to conclude the death Paul was referring to was spiritual in nature, i.e. spiritual death. He uses the same phrase in Colossians:

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
 

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Spiritual death has been "passed" from Adam

Sorry, don't buy it at all! God does not have two standards of righteousness. Man was made "upright" and without sin and the very definition of sin is violation of God's law and it does not make one whit of difference which law of God is volated.

God made man in his image and that is at minimum a moral image. When Paul describes that image, God's image, he describes it in moral terms "true holiness and righteousness." To claim this is referring to the new creation is simply to side step the real issue. The real issue is that God is immutable and that is his image regardless if it characterizes the new birth and it is in that image Adam was created. The term "upright" proves that and man was "made" upright by God. That is a moral description and God does not have two different moral conditions or moral standards.

But you have two different types of morality, one belonging to Adam inferior to God or in your words "not created as God's MORAL EQUIVILENT." He was not created as God's IMMUTABLE equivilent but he most certainly was created in God's moral equivility - or in righteousness or the righteousness that characterizes God's person, His law, and His Son. But you have one standard of righteousness belonging to Adam and another belonging to God. That is absurdly false simply because God cannot convey a LOWER or INFERIOR kind of righteousness as he has no other standard to convey but the moral equivilent which defines him. Adam was created in the moral image of God "true holiness and righteousness." The only difference, is that he was not created in that moral image immutably, but mutably.

The only words I can add to that is "amen".
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Funny. A recent thread on spiritual death just vanished. I thought the topic started a worthwhile discussion and one that can give us insight on the topics of sin and the new birth. The principle of spiritual death is certainly biblical. Paul told the Ephesians, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). Obviously Paul was referring to physical death because the Ephesians who read his letter were still alive. Paul was making the point that before they came to faith in Christ they were "dead in their trespasses and sins". Paul used similar language in Colossians 2:13. It is interesting that Paul uses the Greek word nekros in both passages. This is not the word for the state of death (thanatos), but the word for a dead body. The illustration it provides is stark. The sinner is alive physically but dead spiritually. This does not mean that the sinner does not have a spiritual nature. Quite the contrary. Every human being has a spiritual nature. The question is to what does that nature pledge its allegiance?

The thread I cannot seem to find started the discussion in Genesis 3. This chapter recounts the fall of man which was the birth of sin in the human race. From that point on all of humanity has been tainted by sin. We are not born in union with God, we are born at enmity with God. On our own we have no proclivity for the things of God. Luther wrote about this in his Bondage of the Will. When we are born we are literally dead men walking. We are in a state of spiritual death moving, towards physical death, and culminating in eternal death. This assumes we are never rescued from our fatal journey by the grace of God.

Ephesians 2:1 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Bible
who were dead in trespasses and sins;
not only dead in Adam, in whom they sinned, being their federal head and representative;

and in a legal sense, the sentence of condemnation and death having passed upon them;

but in a moral sense, through original sin, and their own actual transgressions:

which death lies in a separation from God, Father, Son, and Spirit, such are without God, and are alienated from the life of God, and they are without Christ, who is the author and giver of life,

and they are sensual, not having the Spirit, who is the spirit of life;

and in a deformation of the image of God,

such are dead as to their understandings, wills, and affections, with respect to spiritual things,
and as to their capacity to do any thing that is spiritually good;

and in a loss of original righteousness;

and in a privation of the sense of sin and misery; and in a servitude to sin, Satan, and the world:
hence it appears, that sman must be in himself unacceptable to God, infectious and hurtful to his fellow creatures, and incapable of helping himself: so it was usual with the Jews to call a wicked and ignorant man, a dead man; they say F9,



``there is no death like that of those that transgress the words of the law, who are called, (Mytm) , "dead men", and therefore the Scripture says, "turn and live".''


And again F11,


``no man is called a living man, but he who is in the way of truth in this world.----And a wicked man who does not go in the way of truth, is called, (tm) , "a dead man".''


And once more F12
``whoever is without wisdom, lo, he is (tmk) , "as a dead man";''

(See Gill on 1 Timothy 5:6). The Alexandrian and Claromontane copies, and one of Stephens's, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, "dead in your trespasses and sins"; and the Syriac version, "dead in your sins and in your trespasses"; and the Ethiopic version only, "dead in your sins".



FOOTNOTES:

F9 Zohar in Gen, fol. 41. 3.
F11 Ib. in Num. fol. 76. 1. Vid. ib;. in Exod. fol. 44. 2.
F12 Caphtor, fol. 30. 2.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2:1 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Bible
who were dead in trespasses and sins;
not only dead in Adam, in whom they sinned, being their federal head and representative;

and in a legal sense, the sentence of condemnation and death having passed upon them;

but in a moral sense, through original sin, and their own actual transgressions:

which death lies in a separation from God, Father, Son, and Spirit, such are without God, and are alienated from the life of God, and they are without Christ, who is the author and giver of life,

and they are sensual, not having the Spirit, who is the spirit of life;

and in a deformation of the image of God,

such are dead as to their understandings, wills, and affections, with respect to spiritual things,
and as to their capacity to do any thing that is spiritually good;

and in a loss of original righteousness;

and in a privation of the sense of sin and misery; and in a servitude to sin, Satan, and the world:
hence it appears, that sman must be in himself unacceptable to God, infectious and hurtful to his fellow creatures, and incapable of helping himself: so it was usual with the Jews to call a wicked and ignorant man, a dead man; they say F9,



``there is no death like that of those that transgress the words of the law, who are called, (Mytm) , "dead men", and therefore the Scripture says, "turn and live".''


And again F11,


``no man is called a living man, but he who is in the way of truth in this world.----And a wicked man who does not go in the way of truth, is called, (tm) , "a dead man".''


And once more F12
``whoever is without wisdom, lo, he is (tmk) , "as a dead man";''

(See Gill on 1 Timothy 5:6). The Alexandrian and Claromontane copies, and one of Stephens's, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, "dead in your trespasses and sins"; and the Syriac version, "dead in your sins and in your trespasses"; and the Ethiopic version only, "dead in your sins".



FOOTNOTES:

F9 Zohar in Gen, fol. 41. 3.
F11 Ib. in Num. fol. 76. 1. Vid. ib;. in Exod. fol. 44. 2.
F12 Caphtor, fol. 30. 2.

Genesis 2:17 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Bible
shalt surely die;
or "in dying, die" F26;
which denotes the certainty of it, as our version expresses it;
and
may have regard to more deaths than one;

not only a corporeal one, which in some sense immediately took place, man became at once a mortal creature, who otherwise continuing in a state of innocence, and by eating of the tree of life, he was allowed to do, would have lived an immortal life;

of the eating of which tree, by sinning he was debarred, his natural life not now to be continued long, at least not forever;

he was immediately arraigned, tried, and condemned to death, was found guilty of it, and became obnoxious to it, and death at once began to work in him;

sin sowed the seeds of it in his body, and a train of miseries, afflictions, and diseases, began to appear, which at length issued in death.

Moreover, a spiritual or moral death immediately ensued; he lost his original righteousness, in which he was created;

the image of God in him was deformed;

the powers and faculties of his soul were corrupted, and he became dead in sins and trespasses;

the consequence of which, had it not been for the interposition of a surety and Saviour, who engaged to make satisfaction to law and justice, must have been eternal death, or an everlasting separation from God, to him and all his posterity; for the wages of sin is death, even death eternal, ( Romans 6:23 ) .

So the Jews F1 interpret this of death, both in this world and in the world to come.

FOOTNOTES:

F26 (twmt twm) Pagninus, Montanus
F1 Tikkune Zohar, correct. 24. fol. 68. 1. correct. 54. fol. 90. 2. correct. 66. fol. 100. 1.
 
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