Does the Bible teach Spiritual Death?

[Reformed]

I found this on one of the links Reformed, what do you think?
[QUOTE]IT is not based on myth but on the indisputable fact that "death" occurred "in the day" and death cannot occur to something already dead or non-existent. That "death" was not physical death as Adam did not die until 930 years later. Hence, it was spiritual death and spiritual death is spiritual separation from God. Yet, there can be no spiritual SEPARATION from God if there had not been a spiritual UNION with God as you cannot separate what was never united.

Adam's sin introduced both spiritual death and physical death. The first was instantaneous, whereas the latter would culminate hundreds of years later when Adam's physical life ended. We know that Adam had an intimate relationship with God prior to the Fall. Man was created in God's moral image (Genesis 1:27). This is the spiritual union your quote refers to. That union was broken when Adam sinned, although it was restored (although not fully) in Genesis 3:21.

Let me make something very clear between prefallen and post fallen mankind. Salvation does not restore us to a prefallen condition. In the prefallen condition we were mutably righteous and our spiritual union was mutable. In post-fallen salvation, our new born condition is immutably rightous, and our spiritual union is immutable and our hope is for a BETTER creation to come with a BETTER covenant than the prefallen conditional covenant.

So, if your objection is based upon the false assumption that my position, which I believe is the Biblical position is simply a restoration to a prefallen condition NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

I like how Mongerism.com describes this:

"These four states, which are derived from the Scripture, correspond to the four states of man in relation to sin: 1) able to sin, able not to sin (posse peccare, posse non peccare); 2) not able not to sin (non posse non peccare); 3) able not to sin (posse non peccare); and 4) unable to sin (non posse peccare). The first state corresponds to the state of man in innocency, before the Fall; the second the state of the natural man after the Fall; the third the state of the regenerate man; and the fourth the glorified man."

Currently, Christians are able to sin and able not to sin. Even though we are in Christ we are not able not to sin. The ability to not be able to sin will not be granted us until we are in the eternal state.

 

[Reformed]

Hello Reformed,
Here is post #10....I cannot find fault with it, can you?

I do not think it is an issue of whether I find fault. The real question is whether I believe it. I do. When Adam sinned the clock towards his physical death started ticking. Adam experienced cellular change. His body began to age, albeit slowly. As has been mentioned before, he also experienced separation from God because of his sin, i.e. spiritual death.

 

[Reformed]

Yes, Once again Reformed, Here is a solid thought that contributes to this thread;
Post#23;

I cannot find any fault with this. God did not create our spirit at conception. Actually, that belief is closer to Mormonism than it is to Christianity.

 

[Iconoclast]

I cannot find any fault with this. God did not create our spirit at conception. Actually, that belief is closer to Mormonism than it is to Christianity.

Yes, I am enjoying reading on this and seeing how the mainstream thought is correct. I am certain others will come to the same conclusion.

 

[Iconoclast]

B, you were on your game when you offered these teachings, thanks.

We lost in Adam a sinless creation but one that was mutable but we gained in Christ a new creation that is immutable. We lost righteousness in Adam but one that was mutable but we gained in Christ immutable righteousness. We lost life in Adam but one that was mutable, but we gained in Christ immutable life. We lost in Adam the tree of life which was removable, but we gained in Christ the tree of life which is unmovable.

The Bible makes a direct comparison between the first prefallen creation and the new creation and there is only one difference - the new is better. Both are sinless creations. Both have the tree of life. Both have a sinless mankind living in it. Both are created by God. Both are paradises. So what is lost is restored, but only in BETTER condition.

 

[Reformed]

We lost in Adam a sinless creation but one that was mutable but we gained in Christ a new creation that is immutable. We lost righteousness in Adam but one that was mutable but we gained in Christ immutable righteousness. We lost life in Adam but one that was mutable, but we gained in Christ immutable life. We lost in Adam the tree of life which was removable, but we gained in Christ the tree of life which is unmovable.

The Bible makes a direct comparison between the first prefallen creation and the new creation and there is only one difference - the new is better. Both are sinless creations. Both have the tree of life. Both have a sinless mankind living in it. Both are created by God. Both are paradises. So what is lost is restored, but only in BETTER condition.

I agree in the main, but I would use different wording when referring to Christ in the first sentence. I would not deem Christ a "new creation" simply because the second person of the Trinity is eternal. Minor difference but some people will jump on a statement like that an exploit it for their purposes.

 

[JonC]

Adam's sin introduced both spiritual death and physical death.

Again, you use terms you have not been able to define. What is the definition of "spiritual death" and by implication "spiritual life"?

I ask because it is normal to define terms at the start of a debate or discussion, but thus far what has bveen offered is a hazy idea of "spiritual death" which is incongruous with precise doctrine as it has extraordinarily loose parameters (it is too broad and too subjective). You are making claims about something you have failed to define.

Without defining "spiritual death" your comment that it is introduced by Adam's sin is meaningless.

Do you know what "spiritual death" and "spiritual life" are? If so, can you provide a definition before making claims about either?

Thanks

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree in the main, but I would use different wording when referring to Christ in the first sentence. I would not deem Christ a "new creation" simply because the second person of the Trinity is eternal. Minor difference but some people will jump on a statement like that an exploit it for their purposes.

The wording might be a little awkward but I think the thought was speaking in terms of man not in reference to New Creation speaking of the Lord I think it was you know he showed man with the original creation and then man being born again you know which will be immutable eternal state

 

[JonC]

We are on Post # 68 of a thread asking if Scripture teaches that there is spiritual death. Thus far all members agree with one another that it does.

This thread is in the wrong place (it is not an argument, it is not a debate, and it has nothing to do with Calv vs Arm).

As all participants are Baptist I am moving this thread to Baptist Theology & Bible Study (as it is a study on spiritual death rather than an argument about spiritual death).

 

[JonC]

To bring the OP back on topic:

Is the concept of “spiritual death” taught in the Bible? So far all agree, it is taught and the lost are “spiritually dead”.

Points of Agreement:

1. Scripture confirms “spiritual death”

2. Adam was created righteous or “upright”

3. Adam was changed by “the Fall”

4. Through Adam death entered the world

5. Because of the Fall Adam was spiritually separated from God

Points of Disagreement (thus far):

None

Commentary Summary:

@Dave G pointed out that those who are “spiritually dead” are missing the Holy Spirit and offered 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 and 1 John 2:20-27.

@JD731 posted that the divine nature of Adam was not of Adam but of God (I understand this to attribute “spiritual death” to a separation between Adam and this divine nature, i.e., God Himself), and offered that the “glorious Adam was clothed with light until he sinned”.

@percho noted that death was absolutely necessary to the purpose of God (I agree) and pointed to the difference between the natural and the physical body.

@Alan Gross expounded on Ephesians 2:1, which states that we were dead in trespasses and sins and points to the fact that being “spiritually dead” constitutes an alienation from the life of God, a separation from the God.

Scripture does not use “spiritually dead” or “spiritually alive” but the words “flesh” and “spirit”.

Definitions:

The only definitions offered are:

Spiritual death is the state of the “natural” or the “flesh” or the “mind set on the flesh which is death”.

Spiritual life is “Christ”, “born again”, “born of the Spirit”, “indwelt by the Holy Spirit”, “a mind set on the Sprit which is life”.

 

[Alan Gross]

To bring the OP back on topic:

Is the concept of “spiritual death” taught in the Bible? So far all agree, it is taught and the lost are “spiritually dead”.

Points of Agreement:

1. Scripture confirms “spiritual death”

2. Adam was created righteous or “upright”

3. Adam was changed by “the Fall”

4. Through Adam death entered the world

5. Because of the Fall Adam was spiritually separated from God

Points of Disagreement (thus far):

None

Commentary Summary:

@Dave G pointed out that those who are “spiritually dead” are missing the Holy Spirit and offered 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 and 1 John 2:20-27.

@JD731 posted that the divine nature of Adam was not of Adam but of God (I understand this to attribute “spiritual death” to a separation between Adam and this divine nature, i.e., God Himself), and offered that the “glorious Adam was clothed with light until he sinned”.

@percho noted that death was absolutely necessary to the purpose of God (I agree) and pointed to the difference between the natural and the physical body.

@Alan Gross expounded on Ephesians 2:1, which states that we were dead in trespasses and sins and points to the fact that being “spiritually dead” constitutes an alienation from the life of God, a separation from the God.

Scripture does not use “spiritually dead” or “spiritually alive” but the words “flesh” and “spirit”.

Definitions:

The only definitions offered are:

Spiritual death is the state of the “natural” or the “flesh” or the “mindset on the flesh which is death”.

Spiritual life is “Christ”, “born again”, “born of the Spirit”, “indwelt by the Holy Spirit”, “a mindset on the Sprit which is life”.

Spiritual Life Quickens that which was dead.

Those who die, physically, being Spiritually Dead are Twice Dead; body and soul.

the “mindset on the flesh which is death" and a flesh mindset can not take up “a mindset on the Spirit which is life”, without The New Birth.

 

[JonC]

Spiritual Life Quickens that which was dead.

Those who die, physically, being Spiritually Dead are Twice Dead; body and soul.

the “mindset on the flesh which is death" and a flesh mindset can not take up “a mindset on the Spirit which is life”, without The New Birth.

I think that this question will fall into the "eternal security" debate (I believe in the eternal security of the believer) but do you believe that a person can be "quickened" so that he or she is spiritually alive and then be "un-quickened" so that he or she has "spiritually died"?

 

[Alan Gross]

I think that this question will fall into the "eternal security" debate (I believe in the eternal security of the believer) but do you believe that a person can be "quickened" so that he or she is spiritually alive and then be "un-quickened" so that he or she has "spiritually died"?

The Quickening that is Done by The Holy Spirit is Eternal Life.

 

[percho]

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31

God has not yet rested, about to, but not yet.

Where is, the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan?

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

That one, where was. that one, at the end of the sixth day? What was God going to do about, that one? The evil one?

Would it require, Death? Physical? Spiritual? Both? Or just, the death? Heb 2:14

Where was, the death, going to come from?

 

[JonC]

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31

God has not yet rested, about to, but not yet.

Where is, the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan?

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

That one, where was. that one, at the end of the sixth day? What was God going to do about, that one? The evil one?

Would it require, Death? Physical? Spiritual? Both? Or just, the death? Heb 2:14

Where was, the death, going to come from?

That is why it is so important to define terms. IF spiritual life is the Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, a birth "of the Spirit" then for one to be spiritually alive and then die spiritually would mean the death of the Holy Spirit. So if spiritual life is what Jesus was speaking of when He said "I am the Life" then there is a major issue with believing the Fall meant spiritually alive people would die spiritually. But if it means that the flesh, the "natural man" would now be subject to death and spiritual life was needed (first the natural and then the spiritual) that would be a different issue (that is what I believe).

I believe that "in that day" Adam ate of the fruit and death was introduced into the world. The "flesh" or the "natural man" was now subject to death and decay where it was not prior to the Fall. Now for man to live he must be "born again", "born of the spirit" and transformed from the flesh (which is dead spiritually and subject to death naturally) to the Spirit (which is eternal life).

 

[percho]

That is why it is so important to define terms. IF spiritual life is the Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, a birth "of the Spirit" then for one to be spiritually alive and then die spiritually would mean the death of the Holy Spirit. So if spiritual life is what Jesus was speaking of when He said "I am the Life" then there is a major issue with believing the Fall meant spiritually alive people would die spiritually. But if it means that the flesh, the "natural man" would now be subject to death and spiritual life was needed (first the natural and then the spiritual) that would be a different issue (that is what I believe).

I believe that "in that day" Adam ate of the fruit and death was introduced into the world. The "flesh" or the "natural man" was now subject to death and decay where it was not prior to the Fall. Now for man to live he must be "born again", "born of the spirit" and transformed from the flesh (which is dead spiritually and subject to death naturally) to the Spirit (which is eternal life).

I think I agree with you if I understand what you said. I do not believe Adam fell from anything. Adam was created/made of the earth, natural and was going to need to be born again.

The devil was already present and he was already the devil.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

In order for God to destroy, him, the devil; He God would need to bring into the creation the Son of God, born of woman, to die and be made alive again, quickened, out of death to destroy him, the devil.

Before Adam was created where was the death going to come from?

I guess it depends on whether you believe the devil was the devil before Adam was created. I believe he was and Adam, thus the Son of God born of woman, taken from Adam for the purpose of the destruction of the devil.

It is the adoption that was predestined before the creation of man. For God to be glorified through man was always going to come through, the adoption to wit, not through creation itself. IMHO.

 

[JonC]

I think I agree with you if I understand what you said. I do not believe Adam fell from anything. Adam was created/made of the earth, natural and was going to need to be born again.

The devil was already present and he was already the devil.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

In order for God to destroy, him, the devil; He God would need to bring into the creation the Son of God, born of woman, to die and be made alive again, quickened, out of death to destroy him, the devil.

Before Adam was created where was the death going to come from?

I guess it depends on whether you believe the devil was the devil before Adam was created. I believe he was and Adam, thus the Son of God born of woman, taken from Adam for the purpose of the destruction of the devil.

It is the adoption that was predestined before the creation of man. For God to be glorified through man was always going to come through, the adoption to wit, not through creation itself. IMHO.

I agree for the most part. I would put Hebrews 2:14 after Adam's transgression (that it points to conquering Satan on behalf of mankind) but at the same time I have to grant that the Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his angles rather than for man. Do I cannot speak much to that point (I simply do not know).

But I absolutely agree that Adam was created flesh and natural, not spirit. Scripture states this very thing. Adam was created good, upright, but flesh, natural.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think I agree with you if I understand what you said. I do not believe Adam fell from anything. Adam was created/made of the earth, natural and was going to need to be born again.

On the sixth day, after the creation of Adam, God pronounced His creation "Very Good." In fact, it was better than on the fifth day when things were merely "Good."
So tell me, if no one on earth today was regenerate, would God still call His creation "Very Good"?
'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' 'Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.' Did Adam please God at any time? If not, why was the creation pronounced "Very Good"?

 

[Iconoclast]

On the sixth day, after the creation of Adam, God pronounced His creation "Very Good." In fact, it was better than on the fifth day when things were merely "Good."
So tell me, if no one on earth today was regenerate, would God still call His creation "Very Good"?
'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' 'Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.' Did Adam please God at any time? If not, why was the creation pronounced "Very Good"?

Yes,for anyone to suggest that Adam prefall was a "natural man" has missed it totally.

 

[JonC]

On the sixth day, after the creation of Adam, God pronounced His creation "Very Good." In fact, it was better than on the fifth day when things were merely "Good."
So tell me, if no one on earth today was regenerate, would God still call His creation "Very Good"?
'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' 'Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.' Did Adam please God at any time? If not, why was the creation pronounced "Very Good"?

Obviously Adam was created "flesh" and "natural" because that is exactly what the Bible says. And obviously Adam did not please God because that is what the Bible says.

That does not mean.. again, an obvious (I hope) fact... that Adam was not created "upright" and without sin.

It is too far to say Adam was created a Spirit with Spiritual Life because this is not in the Bible. The Bible states Adam was created "natural man" and "flesh" and due to his surrender to the desires of the flesh sinned. No theory will change Scripture. People simply have to choose what to believe.

To deny that Adam was created "natural" rather than spiritual is a heresy (it is a direct denial of God's Word).

Of course, you need to define both spiritual life and spiritual death to make sure we are not talking past one another.