Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Great post Andre, I think you said it well. The problem is both sides take a rational stand or logic stand that goes further then the Bible. As we try to explain it I feel that calvinist try to make it fit the teachings of calvin, and they will not work.Originally posted by Andre:
Greetings all:
I would like to point something out - not so much about the point under discussion, but rather about how the issue is argued. Consider the following statements made several days ago:
[
I think you hit on something here. This is what "elect" is, that God chose us in the matter you stated. Great post.We know that He chose first. I think this make sense since He made the decision to send Christ. But we must choose also.
Originally posted by BobRyan:
The "Rules"
Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" [/qb]
It has been repeatedly pointed out that in Romans 2 -- Context is the very thing Calvinism must ignore so it can continue with its "unconditional election" (arbitrary selection) model EVEN though the text says that IN the case of SALVATION God who judges ALL is NOT partial AND SO some are lost and some saved ON THAT IMPARTIAL basis because the judgment OF BOTH is done (by deeds according "to the text") RATHER than according to "arbitrary favoring" of the FEW.Originally posted by Scott J:
Concerning who is made guilty by the law...
The "Context".
Let "the text" speak.Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Originally posted by BobRyan:
hummm there it is again....saved my deedsSO some are lost and some saved ON THAT IMPARTIAL basis because the judgment OF BOTH is done (by deeds according "to the text") RATHER than according to "arbitrary favoring" of the FEW.
In Christ,
Bob
5th time...tell me your thoughts on this deed judgement
Thanks..
In Christ..James
The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".5th time...tell me your thoughts on this deed judgement
Thanks..
In Christ..James
I think you hit on something here. This is what "elect" is, that God chose us in the matter you stated. Great post.Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> We know that He chose first. I think this make sense since He made the decision to send Christ. But we must choose also.
Those of you who do not consider yhourelf calvinist let me know and I will refrian from using it. If you follow calvin's teaching and think they are biblical then stand up and don't be ashamed to be called a calvinist or follow. I simply do not think it is biblical so I use followers.Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Timtoolman,
Pastor Larry is not here so I'll have to do this task.
For the umpteenth time We do not take the Bible and try to make it fit John Calvin's Beliefs.
We take the Bible and see what is simply there.
We see man as a depraved, lost, sinful, creature unable to save himself, and totally dependent on God for Salvation. Romans 3:23
We see a God who chose a Nation and certain people and we see that the Bible calls that Election. Mark 13:27
We see God accomplishing everything he set out to accomplish on the Cross in his Son Jesus Christ.
Col 1:20
We see God working in the hearts of men and women effectively calling them to faith in Christ. Acts 13:48
We see God's promises that all he calls as His own will never perish. John 10:28-29
Now you can take your personal salvation experience and describe it anyway you want to, but at the end of the day what you say about your salvation will be very similar to the above.
Our Main Difference is in the HOW Salvation happens in an invididual's life.
Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Yes. God loves all men and offers the free gift of salvation by the blood sacrifice of His beloved Son to all. God hates sin, tho and those who choose to refuse the drawing of the Holy Spirit and remain in sin do so freely.2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance
</font>Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
The blood sacrifice of Christ Jesus is capable of saving the whole world but covers the sins of only those who accept that free salvific gift.Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Matt. 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
On the contrary. Only a few will be saved.Matt. 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
Originally posted by BobRyan:
HardSheller --
Do you believe God loves EVERYONE or just the believers?
Of Course God loves everyone but He does not save everyone.
Do you believe that the sacrifice of Christ propitiates (appeases God) for the sins of the "Whole World"? Or just "believers"?
The Sacrifice of Christ was sufficient for the sins of the whole world but not efficient for the whole world.
Does the bible ever say "The Whole World will be saved"?
Not to my knowledge but then I guess it would depend on your definition of World, wouldn't it?
In Christ,
Bob