Double Predestination

[Yeshua1]

is the κόσμος in John 3:16, only the "elect"?

Whosoever wants to get saved will be, and that would be the sheep of Jesus, the Ones given to him by the Father!

 

[1689Dave]

Did you know that the "them" here refers to His Disciples, and not the "elect"?

““I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,” (John 17:20)

 

[Yeshua1]

Could you define "Single Predestination"?

Typically, the only consistent logical possibility for Single Predestination is that God chooses (predestines) some for salvation, and the rest have the free will to earn or not earn their own salvation/damnation (not predestined).

There is one other Single Predestination logical possibility, but it makes no biblical sense:

• God chooses (predestines) some for damnation, and the rest have the free will to earn or not earn their own salvation/damnation (not predestined).

Typically, the only consistent logical possibility for Double Predestination is that God chooses (predestines) some for salvation, and leaves the rest to earn their own damnation (allows).

There are three other Double Predestination logical possibilities, but they make no biblical sense:

• God chooses (predestines) some for salvation, and actively chooses others for damnation (also predestines) ... this makes God the source of sin.
• God chooses (predestines) all for salvation and none for damnation ... Universalism.
• God chooses (predestines) none for salvation and all for damnation ... no one is saved

Baptist 1689 Confession of Faith
... some men and angels are predestined or foreordained to eternal life ...
Others are left to act in their sin to their just condemnation ...
[God chose who is in which group = Double Predestination]

I see it as being that ALL have sinned in Adam, all deserve Hell, and will freely reject Jesus to dave them, so God permits me to have that final state he predestined for all who reject Jesus. He acively saves His own elect.

 

[Revmitchell]

Not knowing he had been dead for 84 years at the time the Five Points were formulated proves how little he actually knows on the subject.

Honestly that is what all you guys say, we do not know what you believe. Its a record that gets repeated over and over and over here and elsewhere.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do know history! The point that I am making is, that those who say they are Five Point Calvinists, are being false to their cause, since Calvin did not believe in the L, of T.U.L.I.P. Therefore they could only be Four Point.

he indded held to limited atonement, as all actually do save for Universalists!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

““I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,” (John 17:20)

Indeed, for all believers, as this is a prayer for them. But you cannot conclude from this that Jesus did not care about all sinners, as Paul shows in 1 Timothy 2:1-6, where he says that were are to pray for ALL.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

he indded held to limited atonement, as all actually do save for Universalists!

Calvin never believe in any limit on the death of Jesus Christ, as he says on Mark 14:24, which is in connection with the Lord's Supper, "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I see it as being that ALL have sinned in Adam, all deserve Hell, and will freely reject Jesus to dave them, so God permits me to have that final state he predestined for all who reject Jesus. He acively saves His own elect.

NOT from the Bible!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Whosoever wants to get saved will be, and that would be the sheep of Jesus, the Ones given to him by the Father!

you say, "Whosoever wants to get saved will be", so you admit to human FREE WILL?

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvin never believe in any limit on the death of Jesus Christ, as he says on Mark 14:24, which is in connection with the Lord's Supper, "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"

Calvin held to the atonement was sufficient to save all sinners, but that God intended for it to save the Elect themselves!

 

[Yeshua1]

you say, "Whosoever wants to get saved will be", so you admit to human FREE WILL?

Those whose desire is to get saved will be the elect of God, as He will regenerate them in order to have them desire and be able to come to Christ!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Calvin held to the atonement was sufficient to save all sinners, but that God intended for it to save the Elect themselves!

No he did NOT, check his commentaries on Mark 14:24, John 3:16 and Colossians 1:14, and you will see very clear language, like Jesus not dying for only a part of the world, but the whole human race, and His death was for "everyone without exception", and not the Calvinistic phrase, "without distinction", etc.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Those whose desire is to get saved will be the elect of God, as He will regenerate them in order to have them desire and be able to come to Christ!

How can the lost sinners "desire" anything, because according to reformed theology, their wills are in bondage and they are dead and cannot respond? If the world of sinners can "desire to get saved", then they all must have freedom of choice.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I see it as being that ALL have sinned in Adam, all deserve Hell, and will freely reject Jesus to dave them, so God permits me to have that final state he predestined for all who reject Jesus. He acively saves His own elect.

to "freely reject Jesus", requires FREE WILL for then to do this!

This Reformed theology is double-speak!!!

 

[TCassidy]

Honestly that is what all you guys say, we do not know what you believe. Its a record that gets repeated over and over and over here and elsewhere.

Not knowing how his name is spelled and not knowing that he had been dead for 84 years when the 5 points were formulated are a pretty good indication he doesn't have a clue. You can deny that all you want but facts are facts.

Just look at this thread. Trying to accuse every Particular Baptist of believing in the mythical "double predestination." Not to mention calling the sincerely held soteriological beliefs of other members "evil."

 

[TCassidy]

I do know history! The point that I am making is, that those who say they are Five Point Calvinists, are being false to their cause, since Calvin did not believe in the L, of T.U.L.I.P. Therefore they could only be Four Point.

ZOOOOOOOMMMM!!! Right over his head! LOL!

 

[rsr]

We've been through this before. Calvin did not cast his theology in terms of limited or unlimited atonement. The key was predestination. Those after him made reasonable inferences about the outworkings of his doctrine as it applies to the extent of the atonement.

Personally, I think unlimited atonement vs. limited atonement (and that's really an Anglo-American concept) means nothing and leads to endless speculation. Calvin believed that only those predestined to salvation, without any merit in themselves, will have eternal life. Put all the glosses on it that you will, but that is the core of his soteriology, not the speculative extent of the atonement.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

We've been through this before. Calvin did not cast his theology in terms of limited or unlimited atonement. The key was predestination. Those after him made reasonable inferences about the outworkings of his doctrine as it applies to the extent of the atonement.

Personally, I think unlimited atonement vs. limited atonement (and that's really an Anglo-American concept) means nothing and leads to endless speculation. Calvin believed that only those predestined to salvation, without any merit in themselves, will have eternal life. Put all the glosses on it that you will, but that is the core of his soteriology, not the speculative extent of the atonement.

if that is the case, then Calvin, like the Calvinists since his time, are equally not capable of rightly expressing what their beliefs really are. On John 3:16 he is very clear that Jesus died for the entire human race, and thereby opened the way to eternal life for them that repented. If his works say different elsewhere, this further proves the folly in this system known as Calvinism!

 

[steaver]

It was God's desire

I'm not sure using "desire" changes anything. But let's go with it...

de·sire
dəˈzī(ə)r/
noun

1. 1.
   a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen.

So God wished, hoped maybe, Adam would choose life??

 

[steaver]

Did Adam choose to sin outside of the Will of God? No , For God already had ordianed that the Cross of christ would be the remedy for that Fall!

So are you saying God willed that Adam choose death?