Double Predestination

[Dave G]

I think you better read again what I've said prior. Here it is in purple.

With respect,

I don't think reading it again will persuade me to believe what I see as man-made philosophy... instead of a healthy respect for the very words on the page.
I don't want to sound harsh, but there it is.
As I see it, you're having quite a bit of difficulty dealing with the words, not the concepts.

But you would have to tell me...I'm not in your head, I only see what you reply with.
Posting them again and encouraging you to pay careful attention to them, is the only reason that I continue to reply to you... because I'd like , more than anything, for you to see and understand those very words:

" The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth." ( Psalms 11:5 )
" For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, [whom] the Lord abhorreth." ( Psalms 10:3 )

You do know what "abhor" means, don't you?
It's the same as "hate", only stronger.

"It's true the word "hate" is used but it's used in a metonymy or rather hyperbolic fashion.

It's used in the literal sense, at least in the Psalms.
Godly hatred is perfect hatred.
Justified hatred of not only a person, but the sins they commit.

I'd kindly suggest one has to rightly divide the word of truth to know the difference.

I'd kindly suggest that rightly dividing the word of truth includes a very detailed picture of who God loves and who He hates...
What "love" is and what "hate" is.

Sorry but i contend it all flows out of the central truth....God is LOVE

It seems that your God is love, Rockson.
Just reading His book, I get a far different understanding of who He is than you appear to be arriving at.

Mine frightens me with His power, and His hatred of those who love sin and refuse to repent.
It truly is staggering, and the only reason we have not seen His full wrath yet, is because it is being held in "check", in store until the end ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, 2 Peter 3:7 ).

I have a deep and abiding respect for what he is capable of, even though I know that He loved me from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Dave G]

Justice or judgment sends out a message a LOVE state is going to be maintained.

Look around you Rockson.

Society is a broken mess...the only thing holding us back from killing each other wholesale is God's restraining power...and it isn't because of His love for all men indiscriminately.
It's because of His love for His elect ( 2 Peter 3:3-10 )

When that last person is brought into the sheepfold by His Spirit and His word, then all Hell is going to break loose on earth.
Do you honestly think that His love is what is going to be behind the judgments of the "Great Tribulation"?
I don't.

It's His wrath.

Where did you get this idea that "God is love", to the exclusion of His holiness, justice and wrath ( or that His love takes precedence over them )?
Am I to believe that, to your way of thinking, God leads all His dealings with men, out of love?

If God loved everyone equally, then Noah and his family would not have been the only ones on the ark.
Do you think that Noah's will and his righteousness before God is what saved him?

Rockson,
No one is righteous ( Romans 3:10-12 ).
The only reason a person is righteous, is because of God's favor upon them.

Therefore I never said it didn't say he didn't hate them. I stipulated the way and manner the word IN CONTEXT was meant to be understood.

When you look at Scripture and you see God loving someone, is it literal?
If so, then why do you look at His hatred as being non-literal?

 

[Dave G]

If God truly did HATE sinners than how could God EVER exhort us to, "Love our enemies, and do good to them which hate us" ??

Context, Rockson.

He's talking to believers there, not to all men.
I would hope you could at least see that.

He's telling His children to show love to even their enemies...in their deeds and in their attitudes, and let Him take care of taking vengeance upon them.
He's also telling His children not to fight among themselves, in other passages, and for other reasons.

There's a difference.

Rockson, I think we've been down this road now, many times.
To me it's abundantly clear that when you read Scripture, you see the "God" that is mis-repesented in most of the pulpits today...the "God that loves everyone".

I don't.
I see a God that is willing to show wrath, and to make His power known.
A selective God who does everything according to His own purposes, and He does not "lead" with love at the top of His "attributes".
He leads with being GOD.

He doesn't love everyone, or Sodom and Gomorrha would still be standing.
Jericho would still be standing.
Egypt would not have had its plagues.
Etc.

If I stop and think about what "attribute" He actually leads with, God's holiness leads, while His righteousness and judgment follow... and His love and compassion for someone is always in context with His mercy and kindness.
His love, mercy and compassion for mankind is directed towards His children eternally, while His patience and kindness are being extended towards those He is angry with, for the sake of His children.

Please consider this carefully:
Titus 3:5-7.


But there is a day coming when He will judge the world in righteousness ( Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 )
His love will not be leading the way.

 

[Rockson]

What I am putting forth in this post is the reactionary approach of considering either "love" or "hate" in the extreme is not always how certain passages need to be viewed.

Exactly. Just like I mentioned "hate" is used in a hyperbolic way.

 

[Rockson]

Look around you Rockson.

Society is a broken mess...the only thing holding us back from killing each other wholesale is God's restraining power...and it isn't because of His love for all men indiscriminately.
It's because of His love for His elect ( 2 Peter 3:3-10 )

I think that's a rather forced interpretation of 2 Pt 3:3-10 but no I don't have any problem believing God might have restrained some actions that men might have carried out.

Do you honestly think that His love is what is going to be behind the judgments of the "Great Tribulation"?
I don't.

Well for one it's not too easy to discuss just what happens with it comes to eschatology as there are so many varied opinions. But addressing your point if God brings judgement on one how could it be said to be love? It is LOVE for the reason that while it's in tune with a LOVE nature to show much long suffering it reaches a point where a line is crossed where it would not longer be LOVE. LOVE eventually would have to bring order . Sets things right.

Where did you get this idea that "God is love", to the exclusion of His holiness, justice and wrath ( or that His love takes precedence over them )?

But then again these are things you've said not I. I've said in order for God to be LOVE he has to walk in holiness and dispense justice. One can see this in my last lines of post 73.

If God loved everyone equally, then Noah and his family would not have been the only ones on the ark.

And I'll say again...because God had to bring judgement doesn't mean he didn't have LOVE with those who were condemned. This can be seen even on an earthly level. A judge may still LOVE an offspring that legally they must sentence to death. So what's so bazaar in what I'm saying? Are you saying we have the capacity to do something that God can't? I fail to see why you find this concept bewildering. Why won't you concede that it's pretty basic?

 

[Dave G]

Are you saying we have the capacity to do something that God can't?

No, I'm saying that God has the capacity to do far more than many of us are giving Him credit for...and it will shock most of us on Judgment Day.

But addressing your point if God brings judgement on one how could it be said to be love?

Are you saying that God is not going to judge men?
Or are you stating that it wouldn't be "fair" for Him to judge one, and not the other?

I fail to see why you find this concept bewildering. Why won't you concede that it's pretty basic?

Because I don't see it's conclusions based on the great weight and detail of Scripture, and, as I see it, it is far too "basic".

The concept that God "leads with love" is not anywhere that I can find....except in the New Testament, which is written, not to unbelievers, but believers.
Right from the start, His love is defined and further restricted, from my vantage point.


Rockson, this is my final reply to you in this thread.
I wish you well, sir.

 

[Rockson]

Because God is merciful to some and not to others shows that he is love.

You've made an assertion. Now what do you base that on? What in showing mercy to only some show that he's love?

Because He is holy and righteous, He is jealous over those whom He loves.

What meaning are you seeking to convey in this? And you should consider that many consider the very things of holiness and righteousness would be made void if God were unjust and demanding people to repent while knowing all the while they couldn't.

Because He is holy, He hates sin and the sinners who commit those sins.

That is why Hell was enlarged.

Now let me ask you something. If you went and demanded people do something they didn't have ability to do...let's say crippled people get up and run around the block and if they didn't do it you'd punish them....would you not consider that you sinned greatly and having done so are far from holiness? I'm guessing every Calvinist on here would agree you did wrong and need to repent. Such would be sin. I say all this for God in how you portray him you say he hates sin. I agree. But to ask ones to repent and not having made it possible to do so would be a sin God would hate as well. Really quite bizarre that you can't see that.

 

[Rockson]

Are you saying that God is not going to judge men?
Or are you stating that it wouldn't be "fair" for Him to judge one, and not the other?

I think you and all of our Calvinist friends here need to understand how basic justice works. Justice must be fair and rewards, or penalties for adhering or not doing so to basic principles must apply to all. If favoritism is shown it's defined as unjust. Have you not ever heart there's a law for the rich and another for the poor? A saying to mean things MUST be fair and equal to all.

FAIR is defined as free from favoritism, bias and conforming with established standards or rules. I'm sorry but Calvinism has God showing favorites and not conforming to established standards, that is telling his creation to be fair loving to all and yet not doing it himself. Sorry and no offense but not the God of the Bible.

Rockson, this is my final reply to you in this thread.
I wish you well, sir.

Very well. I wish you well too.

I think I'll stick around though and do a little mop up work so readers can see IMO how thing rightly apply. Thanks for giving us your opinion though.

 

[Rockson]

With respect,
You do know what "abhor" means, don't you?
It's the same as "hate", only stronger.

I'm confident I've already dealt with this. Hate or "abhor" all states of mind that even natural realm people can express about loved ones who hurt them. Does that mean they truly "hate" them? No. Even Agedman in his post 77, who somewhat agrees with your position of things has acknowledged on here that "hate" shouldn't be taken to to the extremes of possible usages. There can be much that could be said to be hyperbolic in using the term.

It's used in the literal sense, at least in the Psalms.

Sorry but that's an assertion merely to bolster up your theology.

It seems that your God is love, Rockson.

Yes. You've got that right.

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 John 4:16

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

Just reading His book, I get a far different understanding of who He is than you appear to be arriving at.

And well my prayer would be that would change as you continue to read.

Mine frightens me with His power, and His hatred of those who love sin and refuse to repent.

And it saddens me that you don't see the heart of the Father God like the Father of the Prodigal son in Luke 15. He loved the son who was wayward and in other verses it states God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Eze 33:11 NONE. If you hated them you would. He doesn't. Trust you and others will keep giving it some thought. And yes we are to have the fear and reverence of God but even that has to be defined in a right way. The fear of the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom Prov 9:10 isn't an oppressive type fear that we're warned about when it states God had not given us a spirit of fear but of love and power and of a sound mind. 2 Tim 1:7

PEACE

 

[37818]

. . . another group is predestined to perish.

In the OT or NT that term is never used for that promised destination for the perishing.

 

[JonC]

In the OT or NT that term is never used for that promised destination for the perishing.

True. Scripture uses "prepared" rather than "predestined" for distruction. I use "predestined" because it is more inclusive, but you are right that the Bible emphasizes God's work in preparing while "predestined" merely points to destiny.

In terms of doctrine, I do not see a benefit in insisting on reprobation as a decree in regards to soteriology (perhaps it would be different if discussing theology proper).

 

[Alan Gross]

True. Scripture uses "prepared" rather than "predestined" for distruction. I use "predestined" because it is more inclusive, but you are right that the Bible emphasizes God's work in preparing while "predestined" merely points to destiny.

In terms of doctrine, I do not see a benefit in insisting on reprobation as a decree in regards to soteriology (perhaps it would be different if discussing theology proper).

We were all the children of Wrath, even as other.

God is Eternally Perfect and Holy and always Will Be, even if He had never Created 'man' or the Earth.

In the Prospect of Creating man on Earth, God is Immutable and that Immutibility is not Communicable.

The man He Creats would have the ability to change and he did.

Having done so, each descendant of that first man, along with Adam himself Would Have Gone to Hell.....

That is 'prepared', "fitted", "left", "harded", (to remain in the condition they were found), etc.

IF GOD HAD NOT DETERMINED THE ETERNAL PLAN OF SALVATION THROUGH THE WORK OF HIS SON AS AGREED TO BE ACCOMPLISHED BY JESUS AND CARRIED OUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND PREDESTINED HIS CHOSEN ELECT TO BE PURCHASED OUT OF THEIR SINS AND RESULTING ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL, NNE WOULD BE SAVED TO ENJOY THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH WITHOUT SIN IN ETERNITY FUTURE WORSHIPPING THE TRIUNE GODHEAD FOREVER.

Satan and the fallen angles were able to change and fell. In doing so are called, " rejected".

Whereupon, the remaining angles who were capible of change, had been Elected

 

[delizzle]

I always found that double predestination made more sense than single predestination because I don't think it is possible for an omniscient God to predestine some to be saved without simultaneously electing others to damnation. Unless there is some circumstance where the unelect can be saved the decision is binary. You are either chosen to be saved or you are not chosen to be saved. You are either predestined to be saved or predestined not to be saved. It is like having only one team captain picking players for his "saved" team. Of course, anyone this captain does not select would be condemned to the "unsaved" team by default. I guess the bottom line is this. God is omniscient, therefore, He must know whether a soul would ultimately be condemned to hell before He created them. Yet He created them regardless.

 

[Benjamin]

I've been hearing a lot of question begging lately regarding coming to the conclusion that God is Omniscient therefore He must have predestined all things.

A few problems with that reasoning besides being fallacious, 1. It attempts to put God's knowledge in a box while using a finite perspective of knowledge and results in putting limitations on God, which brings us to:

2. Another attribute of God besides Omniscience is Omnipotence, therefore He is able to know all while allowing for human volition while divinely designing the world is which He will judge in truth and judging on what He has predestined as a man's response to His loving offer of grace would not be truth in His judgment, but God is Truth.

And 3. Another attribute of God is Omnibenevolence and He is a God mercy, grace and justice which comes through judgment on His divinely designed creatures to which He made in LOVE, therefore to suggest He created most to have no genuine hope of salvation ...well, the problems with that thinking should be obvious.

...Yet, the Determinists/Predestinarians will beg the question and limit God's knowledge based on putting it in a finite box while also overriding His other attributes to justify their systematic theology with predestination which must maintain strict determinism of all things as it's conclusion, genuine hope of salvation for all and the truth in the power of the Gospel to change hearts be damned!

 

[utilyan]

Context, Rockson.

He's talking to believers there, not to all men.
I would hope you could at least see that.

He's telling His children to show love to even their enemies...in their deeds and in their attitudes, and let Him take care of taking vengeance upon them.
He's also telling His children not to fight among themselves, in other passages, and for other reasons.

There's a difference.

Rockson, I think we've been down this road now, many times.
To me it's abundantly clear that when you read Scripture, you see the "God" that is mis-repesented in most of the pulpits today...the "God that loves everyone".

I don't.
I see a God that is willing to show wrath, and to make His power known.
A selective God who does everything according to His own purposes, and He does not "lead" with love at the top of His "attributes".
He leads with being GOD.

He doesn't love everyone, or Sodom and Gomorrha would still be standing.
Jericho would still be standing.
Egypt would not have had its plagues.
Etc.

If I stop and think about what "attribute" He actually leads with, God's holiness leads, while His righteousness and judgment follow... and His love and compassion for someone is always in context with His mercy and kindness.
His love, mercy and compassion for mankind is directed towards His children eternally, while His patience and kindness are being extended towards those He is angry with, for the sake of His children.

Please consider this carefully:
Titus 3:5-7.


But there is a day coming when He will judge the world in righteousness ( Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 )
His love will not be leading the way.

If God didn't love, Sodom and Gomorrah would still be standing.

"A selective God who does everything according to His own purposes, and He does not "lead" with love at the top of His "attributes".
He leads with being GOD."

God is LOVE. LOVE is the highest priority. And anything that doesn't lead with Love is not God at all.

Anyone who does not have LOVE for motivation is EVIL.


1 John 4

8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


If God does not love everyone then he would not COMMAND ALL not to sin.


1 John 4

16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.


"His love will not be leading the way."

Evil never gets the better of God. You are projecting your FALLEN view of holiness and FALLEN view of justice as his own.


Since God COMMANDS all NOT TO SIN. Who does God want sinning and damned?


Its a simple concept the COMMAND of God. But people who have a distorted sense of morality believe in employment of evil means.

God COMMANDS ALL not to sin therefore he WANTS and DESIRES NONE to sin.

Or do you think when God commands he is a LIAR or being Deceptive?

 

[Rockson]

I Stated: If God truly did HATE sinners than how could God EVER exhort us to, "Love our enemies, and do good to them which hate us" ?? Obviously he couldn't. In fact he tells us to do it in that verse because HE DOES IT. God doesn't tell us to do something he himself doesn't do but there does come a point where judgement must take place. That still all comes out of God's character of LOVE."

He's talking to believers there, not to all men.

Where did I ever insinuate he wasn't talking only to believers there? Yes he's talking to believers that they show themselves an example but an example of what? Of what the nature of God is like!

To deny this is simply to deny the nature of God!

A strong assertion to you YES but to you and the readers here, here's the proof. You're to love your enemies why? In red below and in the same passage!

"...that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:45,48

So you're to LOVE the unsaved to do similar to what God does! HE LOVES THEM! Do you not see above it talks about what he does and because he does it you need to do the same? If you won't I trust the readers do. The clear declaration there is be this way (perfect) because God is this way!

I would hope you could at least see that.

Well David I even think YOU DO SEE what I've just said above! How could anyone not? It couldn't have be said any more clear. The question is will you acknowledge it to be true? I trust that you will.

He's telling His children to show love to even their enemies...in their deeds and in their attitudes,

Yes

and let Him take care of taking vengeance upon them.

NO sir he DID NOT! He did not say that in that particular passage. In other places of the Bible yes but you've scooted around what God said his disposition towards the unsaved is.....LOVE! I command YOU to love those not saved....BECAUSE I DO!

Yes I know Dave it doesn't fit YOUR theology. It is however very clearly stated the word of God. Please consider it.

 

[agedman]

Exactly. Just like I mentioned "hate" is used in a hyperbolic way.

The problem of the use hyperbolic is that I don’t see God ever exaggerating.

That He measures and administrates such items as mercy, justice, love, hate ... as one knowing both purpose and end results removes the need to exaggerate, play down, excuse, or any other term which might suggest a ack of total control.

 

[JonC]

We were all the children of Wrath, even as other.

God is Eternally Perfect and Holy and always Will Be, even if He had never Created 'man' or the Earth.

In the Prospect of Creating man on Earth, God is Immutable and that Immutibility is not Communicable.

The man He Creats would have the ability to change and he did.

Having done so, each descendant of that first man, along with Adam himself Would Have Gone to Hell.....

That is 'prepared', "fitted", "left", "harded", (to remain in the condition they were found), etc.

IF GOD HAD NOT DETERMINED THE ETERNAL PLAN OF SALVATION THROUGH THE WORK OF HIS SON AS AGREED TO BE ACCOMPLISHED BY JESUS AND CARRIED OUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND PREDESTINED HIS CHOSEN ELECT TO BE PURCHASED OUT OF THEIR SINS AND RESULTING ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL, NNE WOULD BE SAVED TO ENJOY THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH WITHOUT SIN IN ETERNITY FUTURE WORSHIPPING THE TRIUNE GODHEAD FOREVER.

Satan and the fallen angles were able to change and fell. In doing so are called, " rejected".

Whereupon, the remaining angles who were capible of change, had been Elected

Do you believe that God had to "determine" such things (that God had to ponder these outcomes, work out an agreement with His Son, make choices and deside between two courses of action)?

 

[Dave G]

Another attribute of God is Omnibenevolence and He is a God mercy, grace and justice which comes through judgment on His divinely designed creatures to which He made in LOVE, therefore to suggest He created most to have no genuine hope of salvation ...well, the problems with that thinking should be obvious.

With respect,
It isn't obvious to me when I consider that God's attribute of "Omni-Benevolence" is not something that I see in the Bible.

In other words, when someone can show me the Scriptures that clearly state that all of His creation was "created in love", then I will agree to His "Omnibenevolence".
Make a case for God's eternal love, outside of John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4 and a few others, and I will consider it.


In the meantime, I see that many people view God's creation and what He does in His word through the lens of God loving everyone ( John 3:16 ).
While I see Him through the lens of God's will and purposes ( Daniel 4:35, etc. )...and Him deciding who to have mercy and compassion on ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ) and who, among all the mass of God-hating, sin-loving humanity, not to.

Him loving His children, and hating the children of the devil.
Him saving His children, and casting the children of the devil into eternal fire.


While I see a smaller version of it in many places, I don't see Him as being omni-benevolent to His creation in the eternal sense...only in the temporal, earthly sense.
For example, God's goodness leads men to repentance ( Romans 2:4 ), even though after the hardness of our hearts and the impenitence ( condition of being unrepentant ) of them, we still refuse to repent.

God, on His throne, still shows even His enemies His grace by sending the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
While He shows His children His everlasting love...
By sending His Son to die for them on the cross ( Romans 5:6-11 ).

With respect to "double predestination", He sees the end from the beginning.
We are responsible for sinning...He didn't make us do it.
If He wants to take one sinner and make them righteous by the blood of His Son, He can.
If He wants to take the other and cast them into Hell...then that is His prerogative.



God did not create robots, he created thinking, feeling men who are in a constant state of rebellion and hatred towards Him...and He also has provided for that situation, by deciding who to save and who to punish.

 

[Rockson]

The problem of the use hyperbolic is that I don’t see God ever exaggerating.

But it's not exaggeration with any attempt to deceive. It's just words used in a certain context that he considers all men should understand enough to capture the usage.

Consider things like, Col 1:6, Jm 3:6, Jude 23, Jn 21:25, Matt 23:24 or 1 Kings 4:20 plus many, many others and that's not an exaggeration.

OK in 1 Kings 4:20 when God says the people of Judah were as numerous as the sand on the seashore can you really not agree such is hyperbolic? An exaggeration? Obviously but God expects us to know better and have us not slide into a misunderstanding. Or one could say there's no excuse to do so.