Dr. D. Wallace's View of Election

[Rippon]

How does the HCSB translate it? For translation.

????

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[Van]

So, when you say "Pay no attention to these so called "experts" when they go against the mainstream translations and scholars like Dr. Dan Wallace" we should just ignore you? Got it. Thought so. Thanks.
I think it is really funny that you cite Wallace, the scholar and expert, in support of your position when this entire thread is paraded as your "refutation" of him.
The Archangel

Yet another attack directed at me, rather than addressing the Mounce rewrite of 2 Thess. 2:13.

The fact is simple, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches our election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth. To avoid this, Calvinists rewrite the verse, changing a noun into a verb. But actual mainline translations, and scholar like Dr. Wallace reject this agenda driven translation.

 

[Van]

Welcome back! You and Dr wallace both use the Greek to prove that Van is wrong, and yet he will still keep on chanting his mantra of he falsely views election!

Yet another false assertion, with no quote to support it. The poster simply posts falsehood after falsehood to cover over the fact that Dr. Wallace's view of election was shown to be in error by citing specific scriptures.

 

[Van]

????

The HCSB translates 2 Thessaloni9ans 2:13 as "for salvation." So did Mounce in 2011. Do does Dr. Wallace.

What does it tell you when doctrine advocates seek agenda driven translations to support their view?

 

[Van]

In Dr. Wallace's article (see posts #1 and #2) His first point asserts that if God chooses those who have chosen to believe in Jesus, then He is not choosing us, but we are choosing Him. This view is unwarranted; just because we profess to believe in Jesus does not require God to accept our faith, as demonstrated in Matthew 7 where folks say “Lord, Lord” but Jesus says, “depart, I never knew you.” Romans 9:16 clearly teaches fallen people can will to be saved, thus teaching the Calvinist claim all the lost hate God and never seek Him, is false theology.

Summary, the biblical doctrine of election is not Doctor Wallace’s doctrine of election, it is conditional, it occurs during our lifetime; God chose us individually out of this world, not before the foundation of the world, when He chose Christ. The only way I see to reconcile Ephesians 1:4, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, with 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and John 15:19 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 and James 2:5 is to understand the phrase “He chose us in Him” as meaning He chose Christ to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God (1 Peter 1:20) before the foundation of the world, and since you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, God’s choice of Christ chose us corporately as a target group of His Redemption plan but not individually. Thus Paul is speaking to those who have been redeemed during their lives, and is letting them know of the many blessings they have received, the first one being the blessing that was directed toward them when God chose Christ.

 

[The Archangel]

Yet another attack directed at me, rather than addressing the Mounce rewrite of 2 Thess. 2:13.

The fact is simple, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches our election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth. To avoid this, Calvinists rewrite the verse, changing a noun into a verb. But actual mainline translations, and scholar like Dr. Wallace reject this agenda driven translation.

Are you even able to, you know, work through the Greek rather than just make unsubstantiated assertion after unsubstantiated assertion? You haven't before, so why should you start?

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

In Dr. Wallace's article (see posts #1 and #2) His first point asserts that if God chooses those who have chosen to believe in Jesus, then He is not choosing us, but we are choosing Him. This view is unwarranted; just because we profess to believe in Jesus does not require God to accept our faith, as demonstrated in Matthew 7 where folks say “Lord, Lord” but Jesus says, “depart, I never knew you.” Romans 9:16 clearly teaches fallen people can will to be saved, thus teaching the Calvinist claim all the lost hate God and never seek Him, is false theology.

No. The first point of Wallace's post:

(1) Election does not mean that God merely knew who would believe and on that basis elected them. D. L. Moody thought that election meant this: "God chose me for himself, but the devil chose me for himself. My choice is the tie-breaker."

This really would not be election or "choice." God would not be choosing us; rather, we would be choosing him and he would simply know about it. (Further, the devil, a creature, would be put on a plane equal to God.) The consistent testimony of scripture is that God is the one doing the choosing, not us. Cf. Romans 9:6-21; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:4.​

How you twist his words to support your position is beyond me. His clear statement is: The consistent testimony of scripture is that God is the one doing the choosing, not us.

Summary, the biblical doctrine of election is not Doctor Wallace’s doctrine of election, it is conditional, it occurs during our lifetime; God chose us individually out of this world, not before the foundation of the world, when He chose Christ. The only way I see to reconcile Ephesians 1:4, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, with 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and John 15:19 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 and James 2:5 is to understand the phrase “He chose us in Him” as meaning He chose Christ to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God (1 Peter 1:20) before the foundation of the world, and since you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, God’s choice of Christ chose us corporately as a target group of His Redemption plan but not individually. Thus Paul is speaking to those who have been redeemed during their lives, and is letting them know of the many blessings they have received, the first one being the blessing that was directed toward them when God chose Christ.

You have yet to explain how "He chose us," which is plainly written in so many verses, equals "He chose Christ."

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Are you even able to, you know, work through the Greek rather than just make unsubstantiated assertion after unsubstantiated assertion? You haven't before, so why should you start?

The Archangel

Typical "taint so" post, devoid of anything other than insult.
Read posts 1 and 2 folks, the case was substantiated with scripture.

Summary, God chose us out of this world, thus we were in the world when chosen individually. He chose us for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election, 2 Thess. 2:13. Lost people will to be saved, Romans 9:15.

 

[The Archangel]

Typical "taint so" post, devoid of anything other than insult.
Read posts 1 and 2 folks, the case was substantiated with scripture.

Summary, God chose us out of this world, thus we were in the world when chosen individually. He chose us for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election, 2 Thess. 2:13. Lost people will to be saved, Romans 9:15.

Where and how does Romans 9:15 (or 16) say "Lost people will to be saved?"

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

No. The first point of Wallace's post:

(1) Election does not mean that God merely knew who would believe and on that basis elected them. D. L. Moody thought that election meant this: "God chose me for himself, but the devil chose me for himself. My choice is the tie-breaker."

This really would not be election or "choice." God would not be choosing us; rather, we would be choosing him and he would simply know about it. (Further, the devil, a creature, would be put on a plane equal to God.) The consistent testimony of scripture is that God is the one doing the choosing, not us. Cf. Romans 9:6-21; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:4.​

How you twist his words to support your position is beyond me. His clear statement is: The consistent testimony of scripture is that God is the one doing the choosing, not us.



You have yet to explain how "He chose us," which is plainly written in so many verses, equals "He chose Christ."

The Archangel

I had not looked at this article until you posted this; notice point 12;
(12) Summary: the biblical doctrine of election is that it is unconditional, irresistible, and irrevocable. All this to the glory of God--without in any way diminishing the dignity or responsibility of man.

 

[Iconoclast]

This post I wrote on 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (from 6 years ago) probably bears repeating:

Much has been said about this verse by Van and others--pointing to grammatical arguments that are hopelessly flawed in an attempt to make our faith the basis of God's choosing us.

Here is the verse in question:But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (ESV)
Here it is in Greek:Ἡμεῖς δὲ ὀφείλομεν εὐχαριστεῖν τῷ θεῷ πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοὶ ἠγαπημένοι ὑπὸ κυρίου, ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας,
The entire debate has raged around the use of the phrase containing the Greek preposition "ἐν." In the following posts, Van has put forward his "interpretation" of the grammar: here, here, here, here, here, and here (to post a few)

My aim in this post it to provide a detailed exegesis of the passage and to demonstrate that the passage cannot say that we are elected in our own time because of our own faith.

The portion of the passage in question is this: ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας, which, being translated, is: because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Let us take a bit at a time, shall we.

Section 1: God chose (eliminating the "because" as superfluous to this discussion) These words, in Greek, are εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς. Here's the break-down:

εἵλατο A very rare verb in the New Testament, being used only three times. The word means "chose" and its form here is Aorist Middle Indicative, 3rd Person Singular. This word is the verb of the subject "God" and in its inflected form it means "He [God] chose for Himself.

Who did He choose?

ὑμᾶς A common word in the New Testament--the 2nd Person Plural personal pronoun. Here this is presented in the Accusative form.

Who did the choosing?

ὁ θεὸς This is the Nominative Singular form of the word "God." This indicates that "God" is the subject of the verb "chose."

So the simple translation of this section: God chose you for Himself

Section 2: As the firstfruits

This section will not have Greek in it. Suffice it to say that there is a textual variant. The ESV has "firstfruits," which is, likely, the wrong way to go. It is better to understand this Accusative noun as saying "from the beginning." The proper translation is of no immediate consequence, however, as it does not affect the grammar in question.

Section 3: to be saved

This word is the accusative noun σωτηρίαν preceded by the preposition εἰς.

For those of you who do not know, Greek prepositions change meanings based on the case of their objects. Certain prepositions, however, take their objects in only one case. εἰς is one of those prepositions, always taking its object in the accusative case.

εἰς is a pronoun of motion. Which is to say there is a verbal idea (not grammatically, but conceptually) with the phrase εἰς σωτηρίαν.

So, while this is technically a noun, to properly convey the concept of motion contained in the Greek pronoun εἰς and to properly convey the inherent concept in the Greek word σωτηρίαν, which itself implies motion, conceptually, one should translate this with a verbal aspect. Now that does not mean that the original text of εἰς σωτηρίαν is a verb. However, when trying to express the basic, underlying meaning of the construction in English, a verbal form is perfectly acceptable.

NOTE: There are three accusatives in the this part of the passage--You (a pronoun), from the beginning/firstfruits (an accusative which gives more information about the pronoun "you"), and salvation. Because all these accusatives are here, there is one "idea" of Direct Object. Technically, this is known as a double accusative.

So, the simple translation of the preceding sections is: God chose you for Himself from the beginning to be saved

Section 4: Here's where the fun begins! The phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" obviously is modifying something. Is it the verb "chose" or is it the noun "salvation?" Here's the Greek breakdown:

ἐν The Greek preposition "in"

ἁγιασμῷ Dative form of the word "sanctify"

πνεύματος Genitive form of the word "spirit." Modifies "Sanctification"

καὶ The Greek conjunction "and."

πίστει The Dative form of "belief"

ἀληθείας The Genitive form of "truth"

Some considerations: ἐν always takes its object in the Dative case. Also, there are some 2700 or so uses of ἐν in the New Testament. Of the Greek prepositions, it has the widest range of semantic uses. But, the basic idea is "in" or "by" or "through" is conveyed.

In this construction, it is easy to see that this phrase (started by the preposition ἐν) is being used adjectivally (as in modifying a noun) and not adverbially.

ἐν + dative can, under certain circumstances, express means or manner while modifying a verb. However, two things show that this is not modifying the verb.

1. The preposition ἐν is governing two separate datives--sanctification and belief.

2. There is a conjunction between the clauses of this prepositional phrase

3. The word order shows this prepositional phrase to modify the noun "salvation" and not the verb "chose." This prepositional phrase, frankly, is too far away in the sentence flow to modify the verb. Had Paul wanted to express that God chose us because of our sanctification or belief, he would have put this prepositional phrase next to the verb.

Conclusion: The two dative nouns, sanctification and belief, are inexorably linked in concept. They are not two separate things; they are not one-in-the-same. They are two sides of the same coin.

We should expect a second ἐν before the second dative "belief." That the ἐν is missing and a conjunction is present shows the preposition ἐν governs both datives. That ἐν governs both the dative nouns and that both the dative nouns have genitive modifiers demonstrates, beyond a doubt, that this prepositional phrase is indeed adjectival and is modifying the noun "salvation."

So, the simple translation is "God chose you for Himself from the beginning into salvation (or to be saved) by sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

This means, that we are indeed saved through sanctification of the Spirit and we are saved through our believing in the truth. But, we are not chosen because of these. The Aorist form of the middle verb "chose" means that the choice was made in its entirety sometime in the past, the Aorist envisioning a "snapshot" of time--and God Himself made that choice for Himself. So, the simple sentence gives us all we need to know: God chose us (for Himself) to be saved. But, He does not save us without our being sanctified (by the spirit), which is, obviously His work, and without our believing in the truth, which is, again, obviously His work. He chooses us for His own good purposes and He makes us fit for the Kingdom.

That salvation is accomplished through our sanctification and our belief shows that we are not just "saved against our will." The meaning of these concepts related to salvation, when juxtaposed to God's choice of us, shows that we must become willing participants in our own salvation. Surely God works to sanctify us--and that takes far too many forms to go into here. But, in His sanctifying work, we are to respond to Him and as He is changing us to be more Christlike, we must change to become more Christlike.

God makes the first move and we, then, respond to Him in repentance and faith leading to our ultimate sanctification (and belief in the truth) as He works on us to make us--once rebellious rebels--fit for the Kingdom as loyal sons and daughters of the Great King.

Having taken some time to formulate my grammatical argument, I was able to consult many resources and work through some other texts. After formulating my argument, however, I stumbled on the following resource:

2 Thessalonians 2:13--What Do Prepositions Modify

This resource was written by Dr. William Mounce--the dean of Greek teachers in the US. I was pleasantly surprised when, after reading his article, he agreed with me! I highly recommend the article.

The back and forth between Van and others only demonstrates that there is no substitute for working the text yourself. Remember, one can fancy himself a mechanic just because he can name all the parts of the internal combustion engine. However, if he cannot put the parts together properly and make the engine run, he is no mechanic at all.​

The Archangel

Sadly...I remember Van was trying to use the Greek, but it wound up to be total abuse of the language.
You tried to help him, but he turned from the help and went back to the darkness, as he does now.
Thankfully everyone else not named Van can be refreshed and edified by the truth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let's back up and include some context........

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why does the Bible say they "perish"? Because they weren't "enabled" or "chosen for salvation from the foundation of the world"? Um no, it says they perish because....."because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." So when God finally says "depart from me ye that work iniquity" it's going to be "because they received not the love of the truth" (which is true) BUT......., if (as some say) they weren't "enabled" by God" to believe that truth, whose fault would that be that they "received not the love of the truth"? And we are saved by being Indwelled, sealed and "sanctified" by the spirit and belief of the Truth and the "Truth" is Jesus Christ. That's how God ordained that people would get saved.

The mind governed by the flesh can not submit to the laws of God, neither indeed can it.[Romans 8:7]

Ppl in their fallen state will not receive the things of God because they are foolishness unto them, neither can they understand them, because they are Spiritually understood.[1 Corinthians 2:14]

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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