Brother Van is consistent at this though!Same errors...just a different day
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Dr. D. Wallace's View of Election
- Thread starter Van
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More insult, deflection, change of subject without addressing the scriptures that teach their theology misses the mark.
1. Why did Jesus teach in parables according to Matthew 13:
2) Why did God need to harden the hearts in Romans 11:
3) How could the people of Matthew 23:13 have been entering the kingdom yet be blocked?
2) Why did God need to harden the hearts in Romans 11:
3) How could the people of Matthew 23:13 have been entering the kingdom yet be blocked?
Honestly, Van, no one is insulting you. That is a figment of your imagination. We are correcting you, but you reject the correction.
It is honestly silly when you claim you are being persecuted for your views. You aren't. You are being corrected...and mostly with love and concern for your heresy.
The topic is not how Calvinists insult others, then deny the obvious. Did you see any answers or an attempt to change the subject?
Both insults and claiming a view is heresy are clear cut violations, but somehow they will go undetected.
[/INDENT]
Both insults and claiming a view is heresy are clear cut violations, but somehow they will go undetected.
Claiming someone holds an unbiblical view as stated above is an insult and a misrepresentation. But more importantly it seeks to change the subject and hide the truth that false theology is defended by subterfuge.
1. Why did Jesus teach in parables according to Matthew 13:
2) Why did God need to harden the hearts in Romans 11:
3) How could the people of Matthew 23:13 have been entering the kingdom yet be blocked?
2) Why did God need to harden the hearts in Romans 11:
3) How could the people of Matthew 23:13 have been entering the kingdom yet be blocked?
[/INDENT]
Yes God does as He wills, and He wills to choose believers for salvation. God wills that sinners repent and bring glory to God.
Jesus taught in parables because many sinners understand the milk of the gospel. God hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews in Romans 11 to preclude them from repenting. How were sinners entering heaven? Because they had innate spiritual ability, they could understand the milk of the gospel. Irresistible grace played no part, since they were blocked, therefore their innate spiritual ability did not need enablement..
Jesus taught in parables because many sinners understand the milk of the gospel. God hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews in Romans 11 to preclude them from repenting. How were sinners entering heaven? Because they had innate spiritual ability, they could understand the milk of the gospel. Irresistible grace played no part, since they were blocked, therefore their innate spiritual ability did not need enablement..
The topic is really the Gospe; according to Van, and he is asserting that he understands this better than Dr Wallace!
[Any is not found in 1 Cor. 2:14, it is an addition to rewrite scripture to fit man-made doctrine.
Since the gospel is the work product of the Holy Spirit, then for a sinner to receive the gospel with joy (Matthew 13) is not "apart" from the Holy Spirit. Pay no attention to the proponents of false theology.
Jesus taught in parables (Matthew 13) because sinners could receive the gospel.
God hardened hearts (Romans 11) because sinners could receive the gospel.
The people of Matthew 23:13 had received some spiritual things for they were entering the kingdom of heaven, yet had not been "enabled" by irresistible grace because they were blocked.
The proponents of false theology seek to nullify obvious biblical truth, by proclaiming one falsehood after another.
You are something else Van. In #124 post you said:
"Claiming someone holds an unbiblical view as stated above is an insult and a misrepresention."
Van, you can't have it both ways. You cry out that you have been unjustly treated on one hand and then vilify others with even harsher language.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This post I wrote on 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (from 6 years ago) probably bears repeating:
The Archangel
Much has been said about this verse by Van and others--pointing to grammatical arguments that are hopelessly flawed in an attempt to make our faith the basis of God's choosing us.
Here is the verse in question:But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (ESV)
Here it is in Greek:Ἡμεῖς δὲ ὀφείλομεν εὐχαριστεῖν τῷ θεῷ πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοὶ ἠγαπημένοι ὑπὸ κυρίου, ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας,
The entire debate has raged around the use of the phrase containing the Greek preposition "ἐν." In the following posts, Van has put forward his "interpretation" of the grammar: here, here, here, here, here, and here (to post a few)
My aim in this post it to provide a detailed exegesis of the passage and to demonstrate that the passage cannot say that we are elected in our own time because of our own faith.
The portion of the passage in question is this: ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας, which, being translated, is: because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Let us take a bit at a time, shall we.
Section 1: God chose (eliminating the "because" as superfluous to this discussion) These words, in Greek, are εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς. Here's the break-down:
εἵλατο A very rare verb in the New Testament, being used only three times. The word means "chose" and its form here is Aorist Middle Indicative, 3rd Person Singular. This word is the verb of the subject "God" and in its inflected form it means "He [God] chose for Himself.
Who did He choose?
ὑμᾶς A common word in the New Testament--the 2nd Person Plural personal pronoun. Here this is presented in the Accusative form.
Who did the choosing?
ὁ θεὸς This is the Nominative Singular form of the word "God." This indicates that "God" is the subject of the verb "chose."
So the simple translation of this section: God chose you for Himself
Section 2: As the firstfruits
This section will not have Greek in it. Suffice it to say that there is a textual variant. The ESV has "firstfruits," which is, likely, the wrong way to go. It is better to understand this Accusative noun as saying "from the beginning." The proper translation is of no immediate consequence, however, as it does not affect the grammar in question.
Section 3: to be saved
This word is the accusative noun σωτηρίαν preceded by the preposition εἰς.
For those of you who do not know, Greek prepositions change meanings based on the case of their objects. Certain prepositions, however, take their objects in only one case. εἰς is one of those prepositions, always taking its object in the accusative case.
εἰς is a pronoun of motion. Which is to say there is a verbal idea (not grammatically, but conceptually) with the phrase εἰς σωτηρίαν.
So, while this is technically a noun, to properly convey the concept of motion contained in the Greek pronoun εἰς and to properly convey the inherent concept in the Greek word σωτηρίαν, which itself implies motion, conceptually, one should translate this with a verbal aspect. Now that does not mean that the original text of εἰς σωτηρίαν is a verb. However, when trying to express the basic, underlying meaning of the construction in English, a verbal form is perfectly acceptable.
NOTE: There are three accusatives in the this part of the passage--You (a pronoun), from the beginning/firstfruits (an accusative which gives more information about the pronoun "you"), and salvation. Because all these accusatives are here, there is one "idea" of Direct Object. Technically, this is known as a double accusative.
So, the simple translation of the preceding sections is: God chose you for Himself from the beginning to be saved
Section 4: Here's where the fun begins! The phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" obviously is modifying something. Is it the verb "chose" or is it the noun "salvation?" Here's the Greek breakdown:
ἐν The Greek preposition "in"
ἁγιασμῷ Dative form of the word "sanctify"
πνεύματος Genitive form of the word "spirit." Modifies "Sanctification"
καὶ The Greek conjunction "and."
πίστει The Dative form of "belief"
ἀληθείας The Genitive form of "truth"
Some considerations: ἐν always takes its object in the Dative case. Also, there are some 2700 or so uses of ἐν in the New Testament. Of the Greek prepositions, it has the widest range of semantic uses. But, the basic idea is "in" or "by" or "through" is conveyed.
In this construction, it is easy to see that this phrase (started by the preposition ἐν) is being used adjectivally (as in modifying a noun) and not adverbially.
ἐν + dative can, under certain circumstances, express means or manner while modifying a verb. However, two things show that this is not modifying the verb.
1. The preposition ἐν is governing two separate datives--sanctification and belief.
2. There is a conjunction between the clauses of this prepositional phrase
3. The word order shows this prepositional phrase to modify the noun "salvation" and not the verb "chose." This prepositional phrase, frankly, is too far away in the sentence flow to modify the verb. Had Paul wanted to express that God chose us because of our sanctification or belief, he would have put this prepositional phrase next to the verb.
Conclusion: The two dative nouns, sanctification and belief, are inexorably linked in concept. They are not two separate things; they are not one-in-the-same. They are two sides of the same coin.
We should expect a second ἐν before the second dative "belief." That the ἐν is missing and a conjunction is present shows the preposition ἐν governs both datives. That ἐν governs both the dative nouns and that both the dative nouns have genitive modifiers demonstrates, beyond a doubt, that this prepositional phrase is indeed adjectival and is modifying the noun "salvation."
So, the simple translation is "God chose you for Himself from the beginning into salvation (or to be saved) by sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
This means, that we are indeed saved through sanctification of the Spirit and we are saved through our believing in the truth. But, we are not chosen because of these. The Aorist form of the middle verb "chose" means that the choice was made in its entirety sometime in the past, the Aorist envisioning a "snapshot" of time--and God Himself made that choice for Himself. So, the simple sentence gives us all we need to know: God chose us (for Himself) to be saved. But, He does not save us without our being sanctified (by the spirit), which is, obviously His work, and without our believing in the truth, which is, again, obviously His work. He chooses us for His own good purposes and He makes us fit for the Kingdom.
That salvation is accomplished through our sanctification and our belief shows that we are not just "saved against our will." The meaning of these concepts related to salvation, when juxtaposed to God's choice of us, shows that we must become willing participants in our own salvation. Surely God works to sanctify us--and that takes far too many forms to go into here. But, in His sanctifying work, we are to respond to Him and as He is changing us to be more Christlike, we must change to become more Christlike.
God makes the first move and we, then, respond to Him in repentance and faith leading to our ultimate sanctification (and belief in the truth) as He works on us to make us--once rebellious rebels--fit for the Kingdom as loyal sons and daughters of the Great King.
Having taken some time to formulate my grammatical argument, I was able to consult many resources and work through some other texts. After formulating my argument, however, I stumbled on the following resource:
2 Thessalonians 2:13--What Do Prepositions Modify
This resource was written by Dr. William Mounce--the dean of Greek teachers in the US. I was pleasantly surprised when, after reading his article, he agreed with me! I highly recommend the article.
The back and forth between Van and others only demonstrates that there is no substitute for working the text yourself. Remember, one can fancy himself a mechanic just because he can name all the parts of the internal combustion engine. However, if he cannot put the parts together properly and make the engine run, he is no mechanic at all.
Here is the verse in question:But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (ESV)
Here it is in Greek:Ἡμεῖς δὲ ὀφείλομεν εὐχαριστεῖν τῷ θεῷ πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοὶ ἠγαπημένοι ὑπὸ κυρίου, ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας,
The entire debate has raged around the use of the phrase containing the Greek preposition "ἐν." In the following posts, Van has put forward his "interpretation" of the grammar: here, here, here, here, here, and here (to post a few)
My aim in this post it to provide a detailed exegesis of the passage and to demonstrate that the passage cannot say that we are elected in our own time because of our own faith.
The portion of the passage in question is this: ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας, which, being translated, is: because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Let us take a bit at a time, shall we.
Section 1: God chose (eliminating the "because" as superfluous to this discussion) These words, in Greek, are εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς. Here's the break-down:
εἵλατο A very rare verb in the New Testament, being used only three times. The word means "chose" and its form here is Aorist Middle Indicative, 3rd Person Singular. This word is the verb of the subject "God" and in its inflected form it means "He [God] chose for Himself.
Who did He choose?
ὑμᾶς A common word in the New Testament--the 2nd Person Plural personal pronoun. Here this is presented in the Accusative form.
Who did the choosing?
ὁ θεὸς This is the Nominative Singular form of the word "God." This indicates that "God" is the subject of the verb "chose."
So the simple translation of this section: God chose you for Himself
Section 2: As the firstfruits
This section will not have Greek in it. Suffice it to say that there is a textual variant. The ESV has "firstfruits," which is, likely, the wrong way to go. It is better to understand this Accusative noun as saying "from the beginning." The proper translation is of no immediate consequence, however, as it does not affect the grammar in question.
Section 3: to be saved
This word is the accusative noun σωτηρίαν preceded by the preposition εἰς.
For those of you who do not know, Greek prepositions change meanings based on the case of their objects. Certain prepositions, however, take their objects in only one case. εἰς is one of those prepositions, always taking its object in the accusative case.
εἰς is a pronoun of motion. Which is to say there is a verbal idea (not grammatically, but conceptually) with the phrase εἰς σωτηρίαν.
So, while this is technically a noun, to properly convey the concept of motion contained in the Greek pronoun εἰς and to properly convey the inherent concept in the Greek word σωτηρίαν, which itself implies motion, conceptually, one should translate this with a verbal aspect. Now that does not mean that the original text of εἰς σωτηρίαν is a verb. However, when trying to express the basic, underlying meaning of the construction in English, a verbal form is perfectly acceptable.
NOTE: There are three accusatives in the this part of the passage--You (a pronoun), from the beginning/firstfruits (an accusative which gives more information about the pronoun "you"), and salvation. Because all these accusatives are here, there is one "idea" of Direct Object. Technically, this is known as a double accusative.
So, the simple translation of the preceding sections is: God chose you for Himself from the beginning to be saved
Section 4: Here's where the fun begins! The phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" obviously is modifying something. Is it the verb "chose" or is it the noun "salvation?" Here's the Greek breakdown:
ἐν The Greek preposition "in"
ἁγιασμῷ Dative form of the word "sanctify"
πνεύματος Genitive form of the word "spirit." Modifies "Sanctification"
καὶ The Greek conjunction "and."
πίστει The Dative form of "belief"
ἀληθείας The Genitive form of "truth"
Some considerations: ἐν always takes its object in the Dative case. Also, there are some 2700 or so uses of ἐν in the New Testament. Of the Greek prepositions, it has the widest range of semantic uses. But, the basic idea is "in" or "by" or "through" is conveyed.
In this construction, it is easy to see that this phrase (started by the preposition ἐν) is being used adjectivally (as in modifying a noun) and not adverbially.
ἐν + dative can, under certain circumstances, express means or manner while modifying a verb. However, two things show that this is not modifying the verb.
1. The preposition ἐν is governing two separate datives--sanctification and belief.
2. There is a conjunction between the clauses of this prepositional phrase
3. The word order shows this prepositional phrase to modify the noun "salvation" and not the verb "chose." This prepositional phrase, frankly, is too far away in the sentence flow to modify the verb. Had Paul wanted to express that God chose us because of our sanctification or belief, he would have put this prepositional phrase next to the verb.
Conclusion: The two dative nouns, sanctification and belief, are inexorably linked in concept. They are not two separate things; they are not one-in-the-same. They are two sides of the same coin.
We should expect a second ἐν before the second dative "belief." That the ἐν is missing and a conjunction is present shows the preposition ἐν governs both datives. That ἐν governs both the dative nouns and that both the dative nouns have genitive modifiers demonstrates, beyond a doubt, that this prepositional phrase is indeed adjectival and is modifying the noun "salvation."
So, the simple translation is "God chose you for Himself from the beginning into salvation (or to be saved) by sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
This means, that we are indeed saved through sanctification of the Spirit and we are saved through our believing in the truth. But, we are not chosen because of these. The Aorist form of the middle verb "chose" means that the choice was made in its entirety sometime in the past, the Aorist envisioning a "snapshot" of time--and God Himself made that choice for Himself. So, the simple sentence gives us all we need to know: God chose us (for Himself) to be saved. But, He does not save us without our being sanctified (by the spirit), which is, obviously His work, and without our believing in the truth, which is, again, obviously His work. He chooses us for His own good purposes and He makes us fit for the Kingdom.
That salvation is accomplished through our sanctification and our belief shows that we are not just "saved against our will." The meaning of these concepts related to salvation, when juxtaposed to God's choice of us, shows that we must become willing participants in our own salvation. Surely God works to sanctify us--and that takes far too many forms to go into here. But, in His sanctifying work, we are to respond to Him and as He is changing us to be more Christlike, we must change to become more Christlike.
God makes the first move and we, then, respond to Him in repentance and faith leading to our ultimate sanctification (and belief in the truth) as He works on us to make us--once rebellious rebels--fit for the Kingdom as loyal sons and daughters of the Great King.
Having taken some time to formulate my grammatical argument, I was able to consult many resources and work through some other texts. After formulating my argument, however, I stumbled on the following resource:
2 Thessalonians 2:13--What Do Prepositions Modify
This resource was written by Dr. William Mounce--the dean of Greek teachers in the US. I was pleasantly surprised when, after reading his article, he agreed with me! I highly recommend the article.
The back and forth between Van and others only demonstrates that there is no substitute for working the text yourself. Remember, one can fancy himself a mechanic just because he can name all the parts of the internal combustion engine. However, if he cannot put the parts together properly and make the engine run, he is no mechanic at all.
The Archangel
I see several posts addressing me and not the topic. These off topic posts demonstrate those posters use logical fallacies to support false theology. Nuff said.
Next, once again we have a Calvinist rewriting 2 Thess. 2:13, changing "for salvation" into "to be saved." The word in the Greek is a noun, not a verb. How does the NASB translate it? For salvation. How does the NKJV translate it? For salvation. How does the WEB translate it? For salvation How does the LEB translate it? For salvation. How does the HCSB translate it? For translation. How does the NET translate it? For salvation.
So all the gobbledygook to rewrite for salvation as "to be saved" to change the meaning from chosen through faith to saved through faith is simply hogwash. Pay no attention to these so called "experts" when they go against the mainstream translations and scholars like Dr. Dan Wallace.
It seems Mounce was inspired to alter the text sometime after he copyrighted his 2011 translation.
Next, once again we have a Calvinist rewriting 2 Thess. 2:13, changing "for salvation" into "to be saved." The word in the Greek is a noun, not a verb. How does the NASB translate it? For salvation. How does the NKJV translate it? For salvation. How does the WEB translate it? For salvation How does the LEB translate it? For salvation. How does the HCSB translate it? For translation. How does the NET translate it? For salvation.
So all the gobbledygook to rewrite for salvation as "to be saved" to change the meaning from chosen through faith to saved through faith is simply hogwash. Pay no attention to these so called "experts" when they go against the mainstream translations and scholars like Dr. Dan Wallace.
It seems Mounce was inspired to alter the text sometime after he copyrighted his 2011 translation.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
So, when you say "Pay no attention to these so called "experts" when they go against the mainstream translations and scholars like Dr. Dan Wallace" we should just ignore you? Got it. Thought so. Thanks.
I think it is really funny that you cite Wallace, the scholar and expert, in support of your position when this entire thread is paraded as your "refutation" of him.
The Archangel
I think it is really funny that you cite Wallace, the scholar and expert, in support of your position when this entire thread is paraded as your "refutation" of him.
The Archangel
Welcome back! You and Dr wallace both use the Greek to prove that Van is wrong, and yet he will still keep on chanting his mantra of he falsely views election!
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Let's back up and include some context........
2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why does the Bible say they "perish"? Because they weren't "enabled" or "chosen for salvation from the foundation of the world"? Um no, it says they perish because....."because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." So when God finally says "depart from me ye that work iniquity" it's going to be "because they received not the love of the truth" (which is true) BUT......., if (as some say) they weren't "enabled" by God" to believe that truth, whose fault would that be that they "received not the love of the truth"? And we are saved by being Indwelled, sealed and "sanctified" by the spirit and belief of the Truth and the "Truth" is Jesus Christ. That's how God ordained that people would get saved.
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