Dr. D. Wallace's View of Election

[percho]

Does, and to faith (belief) of truth 2 Thes 2:13, have same meaning as, out of hearing of faith (belief) Gal 3:3?

Both of those being the means of us having the Spirit of sanctification. Read both passages.

Now I have a question or two. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

What did Jesus mean by that in bold? Was this said before or after the trip to the Garden of Gethsemane?

Did he mean, if I am not obedient unto death even the death of the cross, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit will not come unto you?

Hebrews 5:7,8 YLT who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

Was it in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus learned the obedience? What obedience? if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you

The obedience of faith? Whose faith, whose belief? The Father's? Why did the promise of the Holy Spirit get shed on us?

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Phil 2:8,9 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.



That is why Van is wrong. Belief of truth isn't something he does it is what he heard about. And what he heard about is how we received the Spirit of sanctification.



That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through (the) faith.
3:14 ἵνα εἰς τὰ ἔθνη ἡ εὐλογία τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γένηται ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἵνατὴν ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ πνεύματος λάβωμεν διὰ τῆς πίστεως

Salvation is all, A L L, of God the Father through the Son of the living God.

 

[Van]

I see Utilyan has joined the rest of the "taint so" crowd. He says my view is things are impossible with God. But provides no quote. Why, because my view is the opposite, all things are p;possible with God.

Notice that no one is addressing Dr. Walace's view of Election. They seek to change the subject from election to an attack on me. That is all they have. So sad.

I see they are still claiming we were chosen through faith in the truth, nullifying 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Did the address why Jesus taught in parables, Matthew 13? Nope
Did they address why God needed to harden heats in Romans 11? Nope
Did they addres how sinners were able to be entering heaven, yet be blocked by false teachers? Nope

 

[Van]

I see Utilyan has joined the rest of the "taint so" crowd. He says my view is things are impossible with God. But provides no quote. Why, because my view is the opposite, all things are possible with God.

Notice that no one is addressing Dr. Walace's view of Election. They seek to change the subject from election to an attack on me. That is all they have. So sad.

I see they are still claiming we were not chosen through faith in the truth, nullifying 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Did they address why Jesus taught in parables, Matthew 13? Nope
Did they address why God needed to harden heats in Romans 11? Nope
Did they address how sinners were able to be entering heaven, yet be blocked by false teachers? Nope

I had to duplicate my post because the edit function timed out before I saw the numerous typos.

 

[JonC]

Huh?

It's an ancient Germanic dialect of pre-Kone Greek that was popular during the Hasmonean period (I took Greek in seminary). He is saying "that's why the cross is really foolishness (to the lost)".

 

[Van]

Can all sinners respond to the gospel? No. Read Matthew 13. The first soil was unable to understand the gospel. But the other three soils could.

What is "saving faith." Can we believe the right things with sufficient fervor so it will result in salvation? Again no scripture will be offered. Saving faith is our faith, as worthless as it might be, that God credits to us as righteousness. He knows our heart, so even if our understanding is flawed, God can credit genuine love and trust as righteousness.

Study Romans 4:4-5; and Romans 4:23-24. Salvation does not come from us believing all the right things, but from God knowing we believe in Him. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life, John 3:16.

 

[utilyan]

I see Utilyan has joined the rest of the "taint so" crowd. He says my view is things are impossible with God. But provides no quote. Why, because my view is the opposite, all things are possible with God.

Notice that no one is addressing Dr. Walace's view of Election. They seek to change the subject from election to an attack on me. That is all they have. So sad.

I see they are still claiming we were not chosen through faith in the truth, nullifying 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Did they address why Jesus taught in parables, Matthew 13? Nope
Did they address why God needed to harden heats in Romans 11? Nope
Did they address how sinners were able to be entering heaven, yet be blocked by false teachers? Nope

I had to duplicate my post because the edit function timed out before I saw the numerous typos.

Sorry I'm not familiar with your personal term "taint so".

Your quote is right here:

Sorry Utilyan, you need to address scripture. The Bible says God is "all knowing." Nothing God says is false, but the translations of copies of the original writings do contain some corruptions. However, "nothing is impossible with God" is not one of them.

If you want to change the subject, from Dr. Wallace's view of Election, to another biblical doctrine you do not grasp, start a new thread.

"However, "nothing is impossible with God" is not one of them."

Again, Van I am not vilifying you, but you are very cryptic and hard to understand, which is why I ask questions for clarification.



Far as Dr. Wallace's view of Election:

"(3) Election is necessary because we are totally depraved sinners.2 In other words, we would not choose God unless he first chose us."


I would give the Augustinian argument against the Manicheans
===
Augustine on the Nature of Good:

Chapter 4.— Evil is Corruption of Measure, Form, or Order
When accordingly it is inquired, whence is evil, it must first be inquired, what is evil, which is nothing else than corruption, either of the measure, or the form, or the order, that belong to nature. Nature therefore which has been corrupted, is called evil, for assuredly when incorrupt it is good; but even when corrupt, so far as it is nature it is good, so far as it is corrupted it is evil.

Chapter 6.— Nature Which Cannot Be Corrupted is the Highest Good; That Which Can, is Some Good
But if corruption take away all measure, all form, all order from corruptible things, no nature will remain. And consequently every nature which cannot be corrupted is the highest good, as is God. But every nature that can be corrupted is also itself some good; for corruption cannot injure it, except by taking away from or diminishing that which is good.


Chapter 17.— Nature, in as Far as It is Nature, No Evil
No nature, therefore, as far as it is nature, is evil; but to each nature there is no evil except to be diminished in respect of good. But if by being diminished it should be consumed so that there is no good, no nature would be left; not only such as the Manichæans introduce, where so great good things are found that their exceeding blindness is wonderful, but such as any one can introduce.

====


There is no "holy evil" or wholly evil, evil has always been a missing or incompleteness.

If your spirit has been corrupted to a point there is no good or totally depraved then it is totally destroyed, there is no nature there to be found.



Dr. Wallace defines Total Depravity:
"Total depravity does not mean that we are as bad as we could be. Rather, it means that (1) sin has tainted every aspect of our being--our hearts, bodies, and minds; (2) we would be as bad as we could be if it were not for God's common grace (by which he protects humans in general from becoming as wicked as possible); and (3) there is no spark of the divine within us, nothing good that moves God toward that person, as though he or she deserves to be saved."


How can mankind be CREDITED with COMMON GRACE as if this magnetic field that obviously belongs to God is ours?

Simply is the common grace me? no its not.

In other words Total Depravity claims indeed WE ARE AS BAD AS WE COULD BE.

If God were to snap his finger and stop the devil from doing anything for a day that doesn't mean the devil is well behaved or is not as bad as he could be.


If you are diminished corrupted to where there is nothing Good, then there is no nature, you are destroyed, it isn't even "you".

 

[Van]

Lets see, "however, the "nothing is impossible with God" is not one of "them" with "them referring to corruptions.,
So you misrepresented my view.

I am fine with questions, but nobody likes to have words put in their mouth.

You seem to reject "total spiritual inability" on the basis of philosophy, rather than scripture. If so, you are right for the wrong reason.

Taint so is an evil corruption of "it is not so"

 

[Yeshua1]

Pay no attention to this rewriter of scripture, God chose us for salvation through faith in the truth, not God saved us through faith in the truth, or worse save you and give you faith.

God choose us to be saved in Christ from Eternity past, and He provided to them the saving faith needed to received Jesus and confirm their election!

 

[Van]

Yet another assertion, totally bogus, devoid on any reference to scripture. The deflection posts are aimed at suppressing the truth, rather than supporting the truth.

God chose us after we had lived without mercy.
God chose us who once were not a people.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Thus once again, without rebuttal, I have shown we were chosen individually during our lifetime.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another assertion, totally bogus, devoid on any reference to scripture. The deflection posts are aimed at suppressing the truth, rather than supporting the truth.

God chose us after we had lived without mercy.
God chose us who once were not a people.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Thus once again, without rebuttal, I have shown we were chosen individually during our lifetime.

Interesting that even your verse used here states that God Himself called us out!

 

[Van]

Note the change of subject and failure to acknowledge we were chosen during our lifetime. They suppress the truth by changing the subject and avoiding the obvious. When did God choose us individually? In Eternity past? Nope, During our lifetime, after we were not a people and lived without mercy.

 

[Yeshua1]

Note the change of subject and failure to acknowledge we were chosen during our lifetime. They suppress the truth by changing the subject and avoiding the obvious. When did God choose us individually? In Eternity past? Nope, During our lifetime, after we were not a people and lived without mercy.

God wrote down in Hid book of life all the names of His own, and the days allocated to them before we got here, right?

 

[Van]

Yet another change of subject and failure to acknowledge we were chosen during our lifetime. They suppress the truth by changing the subject and avoiding the obvious. When did God choose us individually? In Eternity past? Nope. During our lifetime, after we were not a people and lived without mercy.

God chose us after we had lived without mercy.
God chose us who once were not a people.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Thus once again, without rebuttal, I have shown we were chosen individually during our lifetime.

 

[utilyan]

Lets see, "however, the "nothing is impossible with God" is not one of "them" with "them referring to corruptions.,
So you misrepresented my view.

I am fine with questions, but nobody likes to have words put in their mouth.

You seem to reject "total spiritual inability" on the basis of philosophy, rather than scripture. If so, you are right for the wrong reason.

Taint so is an evil corruption of "it is not so"

Van, I am not out to get you. Because I still don't even know where you stand thanks to your lack of communication and over vilifying conspiracy theory attitude.

Without God even breathing is impossible.

"You seem to reject "total spiritual inability" on the basis of philosophy, rather than scripture. If so, you are right for the wrong reason."

Show me scriptural evidence that Scriptural Evidence is above all the superior evidence and only sole source of truth.

Else admit that your formula itself is a made up philosophy rather then scripture.

Its not in the bible YOUR PHILOSOPHY is putting WORDS into the mouth of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another change of subject and failure to acknowledge we were chosen during our lifetime. They suppress the truth by changing the subject and avoiding the obvious. When did God choose us individually? In Eternity past? Nope. During our lifetime, after we were not a people and lived without mercy.

God chose us after we had lived without mercy.
God chose us who once were not a people.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Thus once again, without rebuttal, I have shown we were chosen individually during our lifetime.

God chose us to get saved before we received Jesus thru faith!

 

[Van]

Van, I am not out to get you. Because I still don't even know where you stand thanks to your lack of communication and over vilifying conspiracy theory attitude.
Without God even breathing is impossible.
"You seem to reject "total spiritual inability" on the basis of philosophy, rather than scripture. If so, you are right for the wrong reason."
Show me scriptural evidence that Scriptural Evidence is above all the superior evidence and only sole source of truth.
Else admit that your formula itself is a made up philosophy rather then scripture.
Its not in the bible YOUR PHILOSOPHY is putting WORDS into the mouth of God.

Its been educational to attempt to discuss biblical election with you, Sir, but I have no interest debating the idea that scripture is our final authority for doctrine, not the clever views of men.

Next you claim my view is no more biblical than your view. Fine I supported my view from scripture. Finally you charge me with inappropriate behavior. You are among like minded folks.

Returning to topic:

1) We were individually elected for salvation during our lifetime, after we had lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10)
2) We were individually elected for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
3) God chose folks who were poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him (James 2:5)
4) When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He also chose us corporately as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him. (Ephesians 1:4)

 

[Van]

God chose us to get saved before we received Jesus thru faith!

Not how 2 Thessalonians 2:13 reads.

 

[MennoSota]

Not how 2 Thessalonians 2:13 reads.

Yes, that is how 2 Thessalonians reads. I pointed out the clear progression in 2:13. Faith does not come before the work of the Holy Spirit.
You are wrong, Van. You have been proven wrong over and over again. Your claim that we attack you is a bogus claim. We show you that your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is clearly wrong. You persist in your wrong interpretation anyway, despite being proven wrong over and over and over again.
You are simply being very bullheaded.

 

[Van]

You can post absurdity till the cows come home. Your progression is not what scripture teaches. We were chosen through faith in the truth, thus God credited our faith in Christ as righteousness before He set us apart in Christ. If you enter a room through a door, you first pass through the door, then you enter the room. No need to debate the obvious.

13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. ​

Next we get "Van you have been proven wrong" falsehood. The truth folks, is they have no scripture on their side. We were chosen conditionally through faith in the truth. All they offer is a liberal rewrite, but the conservative translations, NKJV, NASB, LEB, all say we were chosen for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

 

[Yeshua1]

You can post absurdity till the cows come home. Your progression is not what scripture teaches. We were chosen through faith in the truth, thus God credited our faith in Christ as righteousness before He set us apart in Christ. If you enter a room through a door, you first pass through the door, then you enter the room. No need to debate the obvious.

13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. ​

Next we get "Van you have been proven wrong" falsehood. The truth folks, is they have no scripture on their side. We were chosen conditionally through faith in the truth. All they offer is a liberal rewrite, but the conservative translations, NKJV, NASB, LEB, all say we were chosen for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

God chooses us, entirely due to his good will and Pleasure, BEFORE we chose Jesus to get saved, as he first chose us in him to be saved now!