Dr. D. Wallace's View of Election

[Van]

First, the only saving faith is the faith God credits as righteousness. The so-called "gift of faith" is just another myth, debunked time and again. Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches salvation is the gift of God, not faith. Scripture explicitly says God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, not the fiction that God gave Abraham the gift of faith.

Next the advocate ignores Matthew 13 and Jesus teaching in parables, ignores God needing to harden the hearts in Romans 11 and ignores the men entering heaven in Matthew 23:13.

Study Romans 4:4-5; and 4:23-24. Salvation does not come from us believing all the right things, but from God knowing we believe in Him. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life, John 3:16.

 

[Yeshua1]

First, the only saving faith is the faith God credits as righteousness. The so-called "gift of faith" is just another myth, debunked time and again. Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches salvation is the gift of God, not faith. Scripture explicitly says God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, not the fiction that God gave Abraham the gift of faith.

Next the advocate ignores Matthew 13 and Jesus teaching in parables, ignores God needing to harden the hearts in Romans 11 and ignores the men entering heaven in Matthew 23:13.

Study Romans 4:4-5; and 4:23-24. Salvation does not come from us believing all the right things, but from God knowing we believe in Him. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life, John 3:16.

The same salvation that is the gift of God though is linked to even faith itself also being a gift from God!

 

[Van]

Rewriting scripture to pour your man-made theology into the text is ill advised. God does not want us to add to scripture, take away from scripture, or alter the meaning of scripture in order to cause it to fit man-made doctrine. Scripture tells us we are saved by grace through faith. Therefore our faith precedes the grace of salvation. Just as when we enter a room through a door, first we use the door, then after passing through the door, we enter the room. Scripture makes this point again and again, we are saved by grace through faith. No verse says we are saved by grace then given faith. None, zip, nada.

We obtain the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, Romans 3:22

We are justified through faith in Christ, Galatians 2:16

We receive the promise of the Spirit through faith, Galatians 3:14

We are Sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, Galatians 3:26.

We are saved through faith, Ephesians 2:8

Christ indwells us through faith, Ephesians 3:17

We have the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith, Philippians 3:9

We have been raised up with Him through faith, Colossians 2:12

The wisdom of scripture that leads to salvation comes through faith, 2 Timothy 3:15

We were individually chosen for salvation through faith in the Truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

The evidence is overwhelming, the concept of being given faith via irresistible grace is false theology.

 

[Van]

One of the difficulties in studying a verse or passage is that some Greek words have a range of meanings, and the intended meaning therefore must be carefully derived. For example, we see in our translations the word "called." This usually means using some means to beckon a person or group, i.e. He called to his friend. Another usage is to name something or someone, i.e. He called them Sons of Thunder. But another very important usage is to refer to someone whose place or status has been altered,i.e. those called out of darkness into His light. Those that have been set apart in Christ, those who have been redeemed are often called "called" or "the called." It is this meaning I want study.

 

[Van]

Mat 2:15 He ]remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON.”

Luk 19:13 “And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten minas and said to them, ‘Do business with this until I come back.'

Luk 19:15 “When he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him so that he might know what business they had done.

Act 5:21 Upon hearing this, they entered into the temple about daybreak and began to teach. Now when the high priest and his associates came, they called the Council together, even all the Senate of the sons of Israel, and sent orders to the prison house for them to be brought.

Act 13:2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

In these first five verses, we see "called" referring not to inviting or beckoning, but to the accomplished fact, the person's or group's status or location had been altered. So within the range of meaning for the word is to bring, gather, arrange, set apart, and establish someone or group for a purpose. So as we have been put spiritually in Christ for a purpose, or saved for a purpose, or redeemed for a purpose, some translations convey that idea with "called!"

 

[MennoSota]

Van, your use of the Bible as a prooftext for your non-biblical position has been noted time and again by many people on this board. You are welcome to have your poorly exegeted position, but understand you are alone in your views. Indeed, I point your own words back at you.
"Rewriting scripture to pour your man-made theology into the text is ill advised"

 

[Van]

Yes, the "people" all Cals, love to say taint so (non- biblical) and Van is rotten for presenting non-Cal views. And then the charge with no evidence, just like liberals in Washington and the LSM.

Paul uses Called to refer to those who have been called out of darkness into His light, positionally sanctified.

See Romans 1:6, 1:7, 8:28, 8:30, and 9:24.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Van, your use of the Bible as a prooftext for your non-biblical position has been noted time and again by many people on this board. You are welcome to have your poorly exegeted position, but understand you are alone in your views. Indeed, I point your own words back at you.
"Rewriting scripture to pour your man-made theology into the text is ill advised"

No he's not "alone": I agree with what I've read so far.

 

[MennoSota]

No he's not "alone": I agree with what I've read so far.

Heretics run in packs...

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, the "people" all Cals, love to say taint so (non- biblical) and Van is rotten for presenting non-Cal views. And then the charge with no evidence, just like liberals in Washington and the LSM.

Paul uses Called to refer to those who have been called out of darkness into His light, positionally sanctified.

See Romans 1:6, 1:7, 8:28, 8:30, and 9:24.

How can those whoa re right now dead in their sin natures to God and His things suddenly will themselves to love Jesus and start obeying God, who until then was to them their sworn enemy?

 

[Van]

Did you see any response to scripture from those who deny Paul uses "called" to refer to those God has transferred spiritually into Christ, positionally sanctifying them? I did not either. All I saw was more taint so, and anyone who accepts the biblical view is running in a pack of heretics. Hard to discuss biblical issues when some seem intent of offering nothing enriching.

 

[Van]

Image translating the Greek words with their metaphorical meaning, "to cause to pass from one state to another."
For example lets use Positionally Sanctified

Romans 1:6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
[among whom you also are the Positionally Sanctified of Jesus Christ;]

Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [ Positionally Sanctified as saints;]


Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [ to those who are Positionally Sanctified according to His purpose.]


Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [He also Positionally Sanctified; and these who He Positionally Sanctified, He also justified;]


Romans 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
[whom He also Positionally Sanctified, not from among Jews only, but...]

 

[MennoSota]

Image translating the Greek words with their metaphorical meaning, "to cause to pass from one state to another."
For example lets use Positionally Sanctified

Romans 1:6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
[among whom you also are the Positionally Sanctified of Jesus Christ;]

Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [ Positionally Sanctified as saints;]


Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [ to those who are Positionally Sanctified according to His purpose.]


Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [He also Positionally Sanctified; and these who He Positionally Sanctified, He also justified;]


Romans 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
[whom He also Positionally Sanctified, not from among Jews only, but...]

Called and Sanctified are two entirely different words and ideas. No...let's not "imagine" such a translation.

 

[Van]

Lets see, holy and blameless are to entirely different words. Jesus and Christ are two entirely different words. Saved and Positionally Sanctified are two entirely different words. Baptizes and transfers are two entirely different words. Set apart is different from sanctified. Imagine that!

Try discerning the meaning of words without using different words.

Back to topic - studying how Paul uses Greek words translated as "called."

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NET) to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

As Paul uses "called," he refers to those who have been set apart in Christ. The evidence is overwhelming

 

[utilyan]

Hank, I have presented 5 verses that cleanly say God elects individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we believe in Christ. Did you say you accept that basic truth?

I can answer any question, as I have answered that one time and time again, but you guys never address my questions.

Does scripture tell us mankind was created? Yes. What existed before mankind was created, according to scripture? Did we exist as predestined individuals in the mind of God? What scripture supports that invention. You want to create mankind before God did to support your unbiblical view.

So by the numbers:
1) God and God alone existed before creation, in the form of the Trinity.
2) Before creation God chose the second person of the Trinity to be His Redeemer, His "Lamb of God."
3) His Redeemer was chosen to redeem those of God's choosing, therefore God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world corporately. If that election was of us as individuals, then the verse would read God chose us as predestined individuals rather than in Him. But that is not how it reads. Bottom line, my view is consistent with all scripture, yours ignores scripture.

Consider James 2:5, we were chosen (1) as poor to the world, (2) rich in faith, and (3) heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. It does not say foreseen to be poor to the world, foreseen to be rich in faith, and foreseen to love God.

"Does scripture tell us mankind was created? Yes. What existed before mankind was created, according to scripture? Did we exist as predestined individuals in the mind of God? What scripture supports that invention. You want to create mankind before God did to support your unbiblical view."

The Paradox in free will and predestination should never be a combat of "either/or". Both extremes are wrong. I think you should consider the position of "both/and".


I think the cross hairs need to be adjusted to the meaning of "elect" because I don't think it always means "chosen" in being called, but that many are called and few are "chosen".

Election is a saved judgement. This is why you get phrases like:
2 Peter 1

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

What Peter is saying here would be an absurdity if it wasn't on you to be elect at all. This does not mean God doesn't know. He absolutely knows who is elect to the end, and everyone in heaven is elect the proof is.....they are in heaven!

Here is an example of being a predestined individual in the mind of God:

Jeremiah 1

5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Clearly Jeremiah is a predestined individual in the mind of God, before he was even born, before he was even conceived.

 

[Van]

Hi Utilyan, thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the study of Paul's message.

1) My position (hopefully the biblical one) is both, God predestines some of our actions, and allows us to autonomously make our choices. That view precludes God being the author of sin.

2) Yes, it is easy to get confused when "called" is used in at least three different ways, (1) to invite or beckon (many are called), (2) to name something (Matthew called Levi) and (3 ) to change the status of someone (called as saints.)

3) Our individual election for salvation is accomplished through sanctification by the Spirit (the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ) and faith in the truth (God chooses to credit our faith in Christ as righteousness.)

(4) Chosen... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father [refers to being chosen according to God's predetermined redemption plan], by the sanctifying work of the Spirit [who baptized us into Christ], to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

(5) Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; (2 Peter 1:10) Here "calling" is being used to mean invite or beckon.

(6) The bible refers to our "unformed substance" in the womb, and so during the whole 9 month period of growth into a fully formed baby, God knows us. He forms our spirit within us. Many times individuals were chosen from the womb for specific tasks, such as to be a prophet. None of these verses in any way support the fiction of God choosing foreseen individuals before creation. OTOH, we have 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 which teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, therefore during our lifetime after we put our trust in Christ. Ask yourself why God would choose us through faith in the truth if as some claim He already had chosen us as foreseen individuals before He created us?

 

[MennoSota]

Saul showed zero faith before God elected him.
Van, countless people have shown you how your interpretation of verses is wrong. You refuse to accept that you are wrong.
God elects. God gives faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

Saul showed zero faith before God elected him.
Van, countless people have shown you how your interpretation of verses is wrong. You refuse to accept that you are wrong.
God elects. God gives faith.

Interesting and ironic that Van blasts us for holding to Calvinist theology, and yet none of his views seem to agree with scriptures on this topic though?

 

[Yeshua1]

Did you see any response to scripture from those who deny Paul uses "called" to refer to those God has transferred spiritually into Christ, positionally sanctifying them? I did not either. All I saw was more taint so, and anyone who accepts the biblical view is running in a pack of heretics. Hard to discuss biblical issues when some seem intent of offering nothing enriching.

So all of the reformed were heretics than. and many Baptists?

 

[Van]

According to some, if all the Democrats yell collusion, that validates the fiction.. But that is how liberals view the world.
OTOH, we have scripture which says Paul uses "called" to refer to those God baptized into Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:2 (NET) to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Thus conditional election for salvation is biblical truth, and those that deny scripture should be corrected.

Other than "taint so" has anyone seen any biblical defense of Dr. Wallace's view of Election? Neither have I.