Dr. D. Wallace's View of Election

[Van]

Hank, I have presented 5 verses that cleanly say God elects individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we believe in Christ. Did you say you accept that basic truth?

I can answer any question, as I have answered that one time and time again, but you guys never address my questions.

Does scripture tell us mankind was created? Yes. What existed before mankind was created, according to scripture? Did we exist as predestined individuals in the mind of God? What scripture supports that invention. You want to create mankind before God did to support your unbiblical view.

So by the numbers:
1) God and God alone existed before creation, in the form of the Trinity.
2) Before creation God chose the second person of the Trinity to be His Redeemer, His "Lamb of God."
3) His Redeemer was chosen to redeem those of God's choosing, therefore God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world corporately. If that election was of us as individuals, then the verse would read God chose us as predestined individuals rather than in Him. But that is not how it reads. Bottom line, my view is consistent with all scripture, yours ignores scripture.

Consider James 2:5, we were chosen (1) as poor to the world, (2) rich in faith, and (3) heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. It does not say foreseen to be poor to the world, foreseen to be rich in faith, and foreseen to love God.

 

[HankD]

Hank, I have presented 5 verses that cleanly say God elects individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we believe in Christ. Did you say you accept that basic truth?

I can answer any question, as I have answered that one time and time again, but you guys never address my questions.

Does scripture tell us mankind was created? Yes. What existed before mankind was created, according to scripture? Did we exist as predestined individuals in the mind of God? What scripture supports that invention. You want to create mankind before God did to support your unbiblical view.

So by the numbers:
1) God and God alone existed before creation, in the form of the Trinity.
2) Before creation God chose the second person of the Trinity to be His Redeemer, His "Lamb of God."
3) His Redeemer was chosen to redeem those of God's choosing, therefore God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world corporately. If that election was of us as individuals, then the verse would read God chose us as predestined individuals rather than in Him. But that is not how it reads. Bottom line, my view is consistent with all scripture, yours ignores scripture.

Consider James 2:5, we were chosen (1) as poor to the world, (2) rich in faith, and (3) heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. It does not say foreseen to be poor to the world, foreseen to be rich in faith, and foreseen to love God.

Van, I cannot accept either position in Toto but accept both.

There are scripture that affirm the core of either the C or A position and personally I find some fault in some of the peripheral and vary views of either. There are other issues as well.

Someone said that makes me a mugwump (look it up ). I accept that label.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you Katarina for addressing the topic, very refreshing. As you may have noticed, the rebuttal to Dr. Wallace's view was not conditional election for salvation. It included conditional election based on Ephesians 1:4, when God chose His Redeemer, He chose us (those to be redeemed corporately) in Him. But, the alternate view includes individual election for salvation, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

But lets address Dr. Wallace's points in your post:

1) First, correctly Dr. Wallace indicates the word used (choice/elect) can address either individual or corporate election. But the point is moot, as noted, because the alternate view is based on individual election for salvation.

2) Second, Dr. Wallace claims that because Jesus chose individually His apostles, that demonstrates God chose individually those for salvation. God does choose us individually for salvation, but his verse in no way demonstrates that fact. And again, the point is moot, the alternate view correctly acknowledges God chooses us individually for salvation.

3) Dr. Wallace repeats his point (numbered 2) that our election for salvation is individual.

4) Next Dr. Wallace attempts to claim the election of Judas was unconditional. Utterly false, Judas was known from the beginning and was chosen to be the betrayer. His character and attributes were well suited to that task.

5) Finally Dr. Wallace claims the concept of "foreknowledge" as used in the NT refers loving beforehand those elected. Actually the term when used in the NT refers to using knowledge acquired beforehand in the present, such as implementing a predetermined plan according to foreknowledge.

Actually, Gods foreknowledge is active sense, so that God knows who would be saved, due to Him caiusing them to get saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Hank, I have presented 5 verses that cleanly say God elects individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we believe in Christ. Did you say you accept that basic truth?

I can answer any question, as I have answered that one time and time again, but you guys never address my questions.

Does scripture tell us mankind was created? Yes. What existed before mankind was created, according to scripture? Did we exist as predestined individuals in the mind of God? What scripture supports that invention. You want to create mankind before God did to support your unbiblical view.

So by the numbers:
1) God and God alone existed before creation, in the form of the Trinity.
2) Before creation God chose the second person of the Trinity to be His Redeemer, His "Lamb of God."
3) His Redeemer was chosen to redeem those of God's choosing, therefore God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world corporately. If that election was of us as individuals, then the verse would read God chose us as predestined individuals rather than in Him. But that is not how it reads. Bottom line, my view is consistent with all scripture, yours ignores scripture.

Consider James 2:5, we were chosen (1) as poor to the world, (2) rich in faith, and (3) heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. It does not say foreseen to be poor to the world, foreseen to be rich in faith, and foreseen to love God.

before ANY of that happens though, God first chose us in Christ, and His Spirit granted to us saving faith!

 

[JamesL]

Hank, I have presented 5 verses that cleanly say God elects individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.

This is not deflecting, nor is it facetious, but I have read this thread twice and cannot find these 5 verses you say you've presented.
Can you just list those 5?

Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we believe in Christ. Did you say you accept that basic truth?

What do you mean by "salvation" ?

If you mean "saved from hell, going to heaven" I'll have to say you've missed the context of election

 

[Van]

Hi Hank, the problem with your response is that the alternative view presented in posts 1 & 2 is neither A nor C.

 

[Van]

Hi JameL. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10, 1 Cor. 1:26-30, John 3:16.

Charging me with no understanding the topic is a ploy to derail the thread. I have presented the three aspects of salvation time and time again. Note how the responders offer questions and not scripture?

 

[HankD]

Actually, Gods foreknowledge is active sense, so that God knows who would be saved, due to Him causingHankD them to get saved!

Arminius folks would say that God through the Holy Spirit gives every person the power to make the choice (which no one in any way possible could have made without said power) and they went ahead and made the choice for Christ - some would say from before the foundation of the world, some in the here and now.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank, the problem with your response is that the alternative view presented in posts 1 & 2 is neither A nor C.

Even that supposition is a matter of opinion.

HankD

 

[Van]

It is an obvious fact, one that you see intent on avoiding. When do the "C's" say we were individually elected? Before the foundation of the world! When do the "A's" say we were individually elected? Before the foundation of the world. When does the alternate view presented in posts 1 & 2 say we were individually elected? During our lifetime, from creation to the end of the age.
Totally different, but you would need to actually read the posts.

 

[HankD]

It is an obvious fact, one that you see intent on avoiding. When do the "C's" say we were individually elected? Before the foundation of the world! When do the "A's" say we were individually elected? Before the foundation of the world. When does the alternate view presented in posts 1 & 2 say we were individually elected? During our lifetime, from creation to the end of the age.
Totally different, but you would need to actually read the posts.

Obviously we are on the wrong page.
So I will admit that I am very likely the one at fault.

Also, I will bow out of the debate as you already have your hands full with those whom have a disagreement with you. Thanks for being civil.

I am a mugwump on the current issue.
I would say That I neither oppose or support your point of view but now I am not completely sure of your point of view.

You said:
"Hank, I have presented 5 verses that cleanly say God elects individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we believe in Christ. Did you say you accept that basic truth?"

I do indeed.

2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, John 3:16.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Which beginning? This is the issue between C and A in any of these passages which indicate a present tense situation which each goes.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Each of these passages is given by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, inerrant, infallible and I accept them as such.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Those who are saved by god would be the ones that God chose to save by the death of Jesus on their behalf, and he grants to them "saving faith" needed to complete their salvation!

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Which beginning? This is the issue between C and A in any of these passages which indicate a present tense situation which each goes.

From the beginning refers to the beginning or since the beginning, but does not refer to before the beginning. I believe the beginning in view here (2 Thess. 2:13) is the beginning of the New Covenant, but even if it refers to creation, it conflicts with the A & C claim we were chosen "before" the beginning individually. And note the verse says we are chosen through belief in the truth, therefore during our lifetime, after we have trusted in Christ.

You say you believe we were chosen as poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5. Thus again a conditional election during our lifetime, not before creation. Again, both A & C hold another view, one that conflicts with the view stated here.

1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people, once we had not received mercy, once we lived without mercy. Thus again this says when each of us were conceived, we had not yet been chosen for salvation. But now we are a chosen generation, therefore our individual election occurs during our lifetime, when we are called out of darkness into His light.

The truth is obvious, both C & A are wrong, our individual election for salvation is (1) conditional based on God crediting our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5, 24) and (2) occurs during our lifetime after we believe in Him, John 3:16.

No need to be a mugwump, just trust in the plain truth of scripture. The hard part is facing the fact that for 400 years the "name" theologians have missed the obvious.

 

[Yeshua1]

From the beginning refers to the beginning or since the beginning, but does not refer to before the beginning. I believe the beginning in view here (2 Thess. 2:13) is the beginning of the New Covenant, but even if it refers to creation, it conflicts with the A & C claim we were chosen "before" the beginning individually. And note the verse says we are chosen through belief in the truth, therefore during our lifetime, after we have trusted in Christ.

You say you believe we were chosen as poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5. Thus again a conditional election during our lifetime, not before creation. Again, both A & C hold another view, one that conflicts with the view stated here.

1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people, once we had not received mercy, once we lived without mercy. Thus again this says when each of us were conceived, we had not yet been chosen for salvation. But now we are a chosen generation, therefore our individual election occurs during our lifetime, when we are called out of darkness into His light.

The truth is obvious, both C & A are wrong, our individual election for salvation is (1) conditional based on God crediting our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5, 24) and (2) occurs during our lifetime after we believe in Him, John 3:16.

No need to be a mugwump, just trust in the plain truth of scripture. The hard part is facing the fact that for 400 years the "name" theologians have missed the obvious.

Our election unto salvation is based upon the will of God, so is unconditional, and is confirmed by God granting saving faith to those whom He chose to save in Christ!

 

[Van]

Note the denial and nullification of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we were chosen [according to the will of God] through faith in the truth. There will be no actual rebuttal, just endless "taint so" posts ignoring scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

Note the denial and nullification of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we were chosen [according to the will of God] through faith in the truth. There will be no actual rebuttal, just endless "taint so" posts ignoring scripture.

We believe in Him due to God granting to us saving faith!

 

[Van]

Notice the absence of any support for the bogus view. If God does not block us (harden our heart so to speak) then we can respond to the gospel and put our faith in Christ.

Three separate lines of scriptural evidence demonstrate this truth. Will anyone even address them? Nope. Ask yourself why Matthew 13 says Jesus spoke in parables? Or why did God need to harden the hearts in Romans 11. Or how did the men of Matthew 23:13 start to enter heaven, if they had no spiritual ability? The answer once again is obvious.

The view of Election espoused by Dr. Wallace is in error.

 

[Yeshua1]

Notice the absence of any support for the bogus view. If God does not block us (harden our heart so to speak) then we can respond to the gospel and put our faith in Christ.

Three separate lines of scriptural evidence demonstrate this truth. Will anyone even address them? Nope. Ask yourself why Matthew 13 says Jesus spoke in parables? Or why did God need to harden the hearts in Romans 11. Or how did the men of Matthew 23:13 start to enter heaven, if they had no spiritual ability? The answer once again is obvious.

The view of Election espoused by Dr. Wallace is in error.

Are you saying that all sinners can freely respond with saving faith apart from the Holy Spirit Himself enabling them to do such?

 

[Van]

Yet another question. Can all sinners respond to the gospel? No. Read Matthew 13. The first soil was unable to understand the gospel. But the other three soils could.

Note the reference to "saving faith." As if we can believe the right things with sufficient fervor it will result in salvation. Again no scripture will be offered. Saving faith is our faith, as worthless as it might be, that God credits to us as righteousness. He knows our heart, so even if our understanding is flawed, God can credit genuine love and trust as righteousness.

Study Romans 4:4-5; and 4:23-24. Salvation does not come from us believing all the right things, but from God knowing we believe in Him. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life, John 3:16.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another question. Can all sinners respond to the gospel? No. Read Matthew 13. The first soil was unable to understand the gospel. But the other three soils could.

Note the reference to "saving faith." As if we can believe the right things with sufficient fervor it will result in salvation. Again no scripture will be offered. Saving faith is our faith, as worthless as it might be, that God credits to us as righteousness. He knows our heart, so even if our understanding is flawed, God can credit genuine love and trust as righteousness.

Study Romans 4:4-5; and 4:23-24. Salvation does not come from us believing all the right things, but from God knowing we believe in Him. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life, John 3:16.

Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches that saving faith itself is a gift from God, so only those sinners giving it bt God will be able to respond to Jesus!