Dr. D. Wallace's View of Election

[utilyan]

Hi Utilyan, thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the study of Paul's message.

1) My position (hopefully the biblical one) is both, God predestines some of our actions, and allows us to autonomously make our choices. That view precludes God being the author of sin.

2) Yes, it is easy to get confused when "called" is used in at least three different ways, (1) to invite or beckon (many are called), (2) to name something (Matthew called Levi) and (3 ) to change the status of someone (called as saints.)

3) Our individual election for salvation is accomplished through sanctification by the Spirit (the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ) and faith in the truth (God chooses to credit our faith in Christ as righteousness.)

(4) Chosen... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father [refers to being chosen according to God's predetermined redemption plan], by the sanctifying work of the Spirit [who baptized us into Christ], to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

(5) Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; (2 Peter 1:10) Here "calling" is being used to mean invite or beckon.

(6) The bible refers to our "unformed substance" in the womb, and so during the whole 9 month period of growth into a fully formed baby, God knows us. He forms our spirit within us. Many times individuals were chosen from the womb for specific tasks, such as to be a prophet. None of these verses in any way support the fiction of God choosing foreseen individuals before creation. OTOH, we have 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 which teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, therefore during our lifetime after we put our trust in Christ. Ask yourself why God would choose us through faith in the truth if as some claim He already had chosen us as foreseen individuals before He created us?

"why God would choose us through faith in the truth if as some claim He already had chosen us as foreseen individuals before He created us?"

Education perhaps, to get to know you. I gave example of one person. But there are other examples far beyond "9 month" period. For example the prophecy of Babylonian captivity. We are talking about God making prophecy 800 years in advanced of certain "evil" to come.

Think about the Anti-Christ, he will be a human, is this guy predestined to damnation? You have prophecy of Judas, You don't think God knew this was going to happen?

You might ask does a merciful loving God work this way?

We are responsible for the measure of faith we are given. And some times God might deny one to actually save another.

Example:

Romans 11

30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


The reason credited for these sinners being shown mercy, is because the disobedience of others. And it even extends that those who are NOW shown mercy to be the source of mercy to be shown to the disobedient.

God even grabs the good people ties them up with the sinners and says everyone is disobedient everyone is shown mercy.

God can have you turn evil absolutely and with force, he might already trust you "as is" he needs to exercise the faith of another at your expense. God will leave 99 for a lost one. 99 righteous and good people, he will dump them, sacrifice them, expend them for the sake of a lost one.


Don't take God's perspective as a judge. He is not called God the Judge, He is called God the Father. He is raising his children. Those who do evil are suffering, Those who do evil are afraid, They are victims to themselves too. A father will do what he can to set the stage for repentance.


Romans 11

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


Ask yourself how is it that the rejection of Jesus Christ by the Jews equaled reconciliation to everyone else. He even adds what will it mean when the rejectors accept?

Can you imagine being thankful someone sinned and rejected? We don't thank them by saying hey keep sinning, so we get more grace. We thank them for what we got with what we got right? Faith in Christ.

Now some folks may feel well its looking pretty bleak for these folks or that folks, the cure for that is meet God. God is the absolute perfect Father. The guy we care for least God cares for them as if his only child.

God is a Father first. His children are going to come first, the opposite of selfish and cowardice.

 

[Van]

1) The reason for God choosing us for salvation through faith in the truth, is He did not choose us individually beforehand. Any other conclusion is absurdity.

2) Yes, God predestines things in advance, but you will find no support for the premise God predestines all things in advance.

3) You need to study how God makes His prophecies occur. He causes them to occur at the time of His choosing. No crystal ball theology needed.

4) It is unsound to proclaim such and such because God would or would not behave that way. Assertions need to be supported by actual scripture.

5) Yes God does sometimes preclude a person a path to salvation in order to accomplish His purpose, such as Romans 11.

6) You made a number of assertions following your quote of Romans 11:30 that I could not follow. I think they were non-germane.

7) "Reconciliation of the world" I think my view of this is quite different from yours, although I might not understand your view. My view is because the Jews rejected the gospel message, that facilitated the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles, the rest of the world so to speak. Now when any of them are reconciled, that is "reconciliation of the world" one sinner at a time. It does not mean all the world received reconciliation.

8) Our individual election for salvation is accomplished through sanctification by the Spirit (the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ) and faith in the truth (God chooses to credit our faith in Christ as righteousness.)

9) Chosen... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father [refers to being chosen according to God's predetermined redemption plan], by the sanctifying work of the Spirit [who baptized us into Christ], to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Whatever God says will happen, He causes to occur; He fulfills prophecy. Knowledge that God is going to bring something about in the future only requires that God influence events and circumstances at the times necessary and to override the autonomous will of specific individuals. It does not require that every thought and circumstance of every life be foreordained and thus deterministically controlled.

Read Isaiah 44:24-28. In verse 26, where God says He confirms the word of his servant, it means He brings about what His servant prophesies. Where it says He performs or fulfills the purpose of His messengers, it is saying God causes it to happen. God prophesies that the cities of Judea will be built, and then it says that God will raise them up, again fulfilling prophecy by intervention to bring it about.

The word fulfill means to repay, the idea is that when God purposes or says something an obligation is created which is repaid when God brings it about. He fulfills prophecy

 

[MennoSota]

He did not choose us individually beforehand. Any other conclusion is absurdity.

2) Yes, God predestines things in advance,

Really?

God only has a clue for some things, not all?

Sorry, but your opinion is not Biblically sound.

 

[utilyan]

1) The reason for God choosing us for salvation through faith in the truth, is He did not choose us individually beforehand. Any other conclusion is absurdity.

2) Yes, God predestines things in advance, but you will find no support for the premise God predestines all things in advance.

3) You need to study how God makes His prophecies occur. He causes them to occur at the time of His choosing. No crystal ball theology needed.

4) It is unsound to proclaim such and such because God would or would not behave that way. Assertions need to be supported by actual scripture.

5) Yes God does sometimes preclude a person a path to salvation in order to accomplish His purpose, such as Romans 11.

6) You made a number of assertions following your quote of Romans 11:30 that I could not follow. I think they were non-germane.

7) "Reconciliation of the world" I think my view of this is quite different from yours, although I might not understand your view. My view is because the Jews rejected the gospel message, that facilitated the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles, the rest of the world so to speak. Now when any of them are reconciled, that is "reconciliation of the world" one sinner at a time. It does not mean all the world received reconciliation.

8) Our individual election for salvation is accomplished through sanctification by the Spirit (the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ) and faith in the truth (God chooses to credit our faith in Christ as righteousness.)

9) Chosen... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father [refers to being chosen according to God's predetermined redemption plan], by the sanctifying work of the Spirit [who baptized us into Christ], to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Whatever God says will happen, He causes to occur; He fulfills prophecy. Knowledge that God is going to bring something about in the future only requires that God influence events and circumstances at the times necessary and to override the autonomous will of specific individuals. It does not require that every thought and circumstance of every life be foreordained and thus deterministically controlled.

Read Isaiah 44:24-28. In verse 26, where God says He confirms the word of his servant, it means He brings about what His servant prophesies. Where it says He performs or fulfills the purpose of His messengers, it is saying God causes it to happen. God prophesies that the cities of Judea will be built, and then it says that God will raise them up, again fulfilling prophecy by intervention to bring it about.

The word fulfill means to repay, the idea is that when God purposes or says something an obligation is created which is repaid when God brings it about. He fulfills prophecy

I want to compress things to a small post, with questions so I can get a clear understanding of what you believe.
Then I will follow to best explain God's capacity.

Does God know absolutely everything to the smallest detail of the future?

If the answer is no, then God does not know everything and God is not omniscient.

The statement that nothing is impossible for God is false, correct?

 

[Van]

Sorry Utilyan, you need to address scripture. The Bible says God is "all knowing." Nothing God says is false, but the translations of copies of the original writings do contain some corruptions. However, "nothing is impossible with God" is not one of them.

If you want to change the subject, from Dr. Wallace's view of Election, to another biblical doctrine you do not grasp, start a new thread.

 

[Van]

Really?
God only has a clue for some things, not all? Sorry, but your opinion is not Biblically sound.

More misrepresentation and taint so posting from those who add nothing to the threads.

1) Why did Jesus teach in parables if the lost cannot understand the gospel?
2) Why did God harden hearts in Romans 11 if the lost cannot understand the gospel.
3) Why did God choose us for salvation through faith in the truth, if election is unconditional?

The answer my friends is blowing in the wind. Dr. Wallace's view of Election is not biblicallyl sound.

 

[Yeshua1]

More misrepresentation and taint so posting from those who add nothing to the threads.

1) Why did Jesus teach in parables if the lost cannot understand the gospel?
2) Why did God harden hearts in Romans 11 if the lost cannot understand the gospel.
3) Why did God choose us for salvation through faith in the truth, if election is unconditional?

The answer my friends is blowing in the wind. Dr. Wallace's view of Election is not biblicallyl sound.

And your credentials are what, as compared to his?

 

[MennoSota]

More misrepresentation and taint so posting from those who add nothing to the threads.

1) Why did Jesus teach in parables if the lost cannot understand the gospel?
2) Why did God harden hearts in Romans 11 if the lost cannot understand the gospel.
3) Why did God choose us for salvation through faith in the truth, if election is unconditional?

The answer my friends is blowing in the wind. Dr. Wallace's view of Election is not biblicallyl sound.

The answer is because God is Sovereign and he does as he wills.

Unfortunately, Van, forces the text to say that human faith is the catalyst to redemption, not God's choice.

Here's what 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says.

Note that salvation first comes by God's Spirit, which activates our faith. It is all God's work. Van, your opinion is flat out wrong.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
[13]As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth.
[14]He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

The answer is because God is Sovereign and he does as he wills.

Unfortunately, Van, forces the text to say that human faith is the catalyst to redemption, not God's choice.

Here's what 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says.

Note that salvation first comes by God's Spirit, which activates our faith. It is all God's work. Van, your opinion is flat out wrong.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
[13]As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth.
[14]He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Look out, you are now using the real meaning of the scriptures now!
Would be interesting to have Dr Wallace debate Van in the Greek on the doctrine of biblical election!

 

[Van]

On and on they go, posting misrepresentations, change of subject topics, and scripture nullification.
We are saved by grace through faith, thus God credits our faith as righteousness before salvation.

Did you note that rather than God election being through faith in the truth, the rewriter claims we are saved then given faith. False theology. Just read the NASB, or LEB, or NKJV.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

From the beginning refers to the beginning or since the beginning, but does not refer to before the beginning. I believe the beginning in view here (2 Thess. 2:13) is the beginning of the New Covenant, but even if it refers to creation, it conflicts with the A & C claim we were chosen "before" the beginning individually. And note the verse says we are chosen through belief in the truth, therefore during our lifetime, after we have trusted in Christ.

Some say they believe we were chosen as poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5. Thus again a conditional election during our lifetime, not before creation. Again, both A & C hold another view, one that conflicts with the view stated here.

1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people, once we had not received mercy, once we lived without mercy. Thus again this says when each of us were conceived, we had not yet been chosen for salvation. But now we are a chosen generation, therefore our individual election occurs during our lifetime, when we are called out of darkness into His light.

The truth is obvious, both C & A are wrong, our individual election for salvation is (1) conditional based on God crediting our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5, 24) and (2) occurs during our lifetime after we believe in Him, John 3:16.

Just trust in the plain truth of scripture. The hard part is facing the fact that for 400 years the "name" theologians have missed the obvious.

 

[MennoSota]

On and on they go, posting misrepresentations, change of subject topics, and scripture nullification.
We are saved by grace through faith, thus God credits our faith as righteousness before salvation.

Did you note that rather than God election being through faith in the truth, the rewriter claims we are saved then given faith. False theology. Just read the NASB, or LEB, or NKJV.

You don't comprehend that your view teaches that God is weak and he is obligated to the efforts of men to conjure up their own faith.
You put the cart before the horse and honor the cart for its impressive work.

 

[MennoSota]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1) God...from the beginning
2) chose to save you
3) by the Spirit of God's setting you apart.
4) and then your belief of the truth

Notice the order that Paul so very clearly lays out.

It is a foolish thing to preach that a man's own conjuring up of faith compels God to redeem that man. Not only is it foolish, it's heresy.

 

[utilyan]

Sorry Utilyan, you need to address scripture. The Bible says God is "all knowing." Nothing God says is false, but the translations of copies of the original writings do contain some corruptions. However, "nothing is impossible with God" is not one of them.

If you want to change the subject, from Dr. Wallace's view of Election, to another biblical doctrine you do not grasp, start a new thread.

My questions is just so I can grasp your understanding.

Is the following scripture legit or does this contain a corruption?

Matthew 19

26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

[Yeshua1]

1) God...from the beginning
2) chose to save you
3) by the Spirit of God's setting you apart.
4) and then your belief of the truth

Notice the order that Paul so very clearly lays out.

It is a foolish thing to preach that a man's own conjuring up of faith compels God to redeem that man. Not only is it foolish, it's heresy.

This is why the Cross id really flloish to the lost, for it reveals that we can do nothing to save ourselves, as we want to "help God out"

 

[Van]

1) God...from the beginning
2) chose to save you
3) by the Spirit of God's setting you apart.
4) and then your belief of the truth
Notice the order that Paul so very clearly lays out.
It is a foolish thing to preach that a man's own conjuring up of faith compels God to redeem that man. Not only is it foolish, it's heresy.

Pay no attention to this rewriter of scripture, God chose us for salvation through faith in the truth, not God saved us through faith in the truth, or worse save you and give you faith.

 

[Van]

My questions is just so I can grasp your understanding.
Is the following scripture legit or does this contain a corruption?
Matthew 1926And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Asked and answered, please address the subject. Or start or own thread on the subject that God is all powerful. This thread is about Dr. Wallace's view of Election.

 

[MennoSota]

Pay no attention to this rewriter of scripture, God chose us for salvation through faith in the truth, not God saved us through faith in the truth, or worse save you and give you faith.

Van, I merely point out what the verse YOU posted says. The progression is clear.
You refuse to pay attention because recognizing God's sovereignty in the verse throws your personal narrative into disarray.
What any person, led by the Spirit, will do is recognize your false teaching and call you out. I have done this and shown why your narrative is wrong.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say what you claim it says. It is that simple.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is why the Cross id really flloish

Huh?

 

[utilyan]

Asked and answered, please address the subject. Or start or own thread on the subject that God is all powerful. This thread is about Dr. Wallace's view of Election.

Welcome to the debate board.

Sorry Van, But you have to retract your post if its off topic insisting we swallow as a given that things are impossible with God to clam me up.

I didn't go off topic. It appears you claim things impossible for God as a invention, you claim he never predestined anyone, you asked for scripture, and then you got it.

And I only say APPEARS, because I still don't know what the heck you believe.


Is there anyone on this thread or board that understands you? Its because of this flaw in communication we ask to clear up what you are "trying" to say.

I don't agree with C or A but not at the expense of throwing out the baby with bathwater.