1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Dr. D. Wallace's View of Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Jul 12, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 4 of 8
  1. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    293
    "why God would choose us through faith in the truth if as some claim He already had chosen us as foreseen individuals before He created us?"

    Education perhaps, to get to know you. I gave example of one person. But there are other examples far beyond "9 month" period. For example the prophecy of Babylonian captivity. We are talking about God making prophecy 800 years in advanced of certain "evil" to come.

    Think about the Anti-Christ, he will be a human, is this guy predestined to damnation? You have prophecy of Judas, You don't think God knew this was going to happen?

    You might ask does a merciful loving God work this way?

    We are responsible for the measure of faith we are given. And some times God might deny one to actually save another.

    Example:

    Romans 11

    30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


    The reason credited for these sinners being shown mercy, is because the disobedience of others. And it even extends that those who are NOW shown mercy to be the source of mercy to be shown to the disobedient.

    God even grabs the good people ties them up with the sinners and says everyone is disobedient everyone is shown mercy.

    God can have you turn evil absolutely and with force, he might already trust you "as is" he needs to exercise the faith of another at your expense. God will leave 99 for a lost one. 99 righteous and good people, he will dump them, sacrifice them, expend them for the sake of a lost one.


    Don't take God's perspective as a judge. He is not called God the Judge, He is called God the Father. He is raising his children. Those who do evil are suffering, Those who do evil are afraid, They are victims to themselves too. A father will do what he can to set the stage for repentance.


    Romans 11

    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


    Ask yourself how is it that the rejection of Jesus Christ by the Jews equaled reconciliation to everyone else. He even adds what will it mean when the rejectors accept?

    Can you imagine being thankful someone sinned and rejected? We don't thank them by saying hey keep sinning, so we get more grace. We thank them for what we got with what we got right? Faith in Christ.

    Now some folks may feel well its looking pretty bleak for these folks or that folks, the cure for that is meet God. God is the absolute perfect Father. The guy we care for least God cares for them as if his only child.

    God is a Father first. His children are going to come first, the opposite of selfish and cowardice.
     
    #61 utilyan, Jul 27, 2017
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) The reason for God choosing us for salvation through faith in the truth, is He did not choose us individually beforehand. Any other conclusion is absurdity.

    2) Yes, God predestines things in advance, but you will find no support for the premise God predestines all things in advance.

    3) You need to study how God makes His prophecies occur. He causes them to occur at the time of His choosing. No crystal ball theology needed.

    4) It is unsound to proclaim such and such because God would or would not behave that way. Assertions need to be supported by actual scripture.

    5) Yes God does sometimes preclude a person a path to salvation in order to accomplish His purpose, such as Romans 11.

    6) You made a number of assertions following your quote of Romans 11:30 that I could not follow. I think they were non-germane.

    7) "Reconciliation of the world" I think my view of this is quite different from yours, although I might not understand your view. My view is because the Jews rejected the gospel message, that facilitated the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles, the rest of the world so to speak. Now when any of them are reconciled, that is "reconciliation of the world" one sinner at a time. It does not mean all the world received reconciliation.

    8) Our individual election for salvation is accomplished through sanctification by the Spirit (the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ) and faith in the truth (God chooses to credit our faith in Christ as righteousness.)

    9) Chosen... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father [refers to being chosen according to God's predetermined redemption plan], by the sanctifying work of the Spirit [who baptized us into Christ], to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

    Whatever God says will happen, He causes to occur; He fulfills prophecy. Knowledge that God is going to bring something about in the future only requires that God influence events and circumstances at the times necessary and to override the autonomous will of specific individuals. It does not require that every thought and circumstance of every life be foreordained and thus deterministically controlled.

    Read Isaiah 44:24-28. In verse 26, where God says He confirms the word of his servant, it means He brings about what His servant prophesies. Where it says He performs or fulfills the purpose of His messengers, it is saying God causes it to happen. God prophesies that the cities of Judea will be built, and then it says that God will raise them up, again fulfilling prophecy by intervention to bring it about.

    The word fulfill means to repay, the idea is that when God purposes or says something an obligation is created which is repaid when God brings it about. He fulfills prophecy
     
    #62 Van, Jul 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  3. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Really?

    God only has a clue for some things, not all?

    Sorry, but your opinion is not Biblically sound.
     
    #63 MennoSota, Jul 27, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    293
    I want to compress things to a small post, with questions so I can get a clear understanding of what you believe.
    Then I will follow to best explain God's capacity.

    Does God know absolutely everything to the smallest detail of the future?

    If the answer is no, then God does not know everything and God is not omniscient.

    The statement that nothing is impossible for God is false, correct?
     
    #64 utilyan, Jul 27, 2017
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sorry Utilyan, you need to address scripture. The Bible says God is "all knowing." Nothing God says is false, but the translations of copies of the original writings do contain some corruptions. However, "nothing is impossible with God" is not one of them.

    If you want to change the subject, from Dr. Wallace's view of Election, to another biblical doctrine you do not grasp, start a new thread.
     
    #65 Van, Jul 28, 2017
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    More misrepresentation and taint so posting from those who add nothing to the threads.

    1) Why did Jesus teach in parables if the lost cannot understand the gospel?
    2) Why did God harden hearts in Romans 11 if the lost cannot understand the gospel.
    3) Why did God choose us for salvation through faith in the truth, if election is unconditional?

    The answer my friends is blowing in the wind. Dr. Wallace's view of Election is not biblicallyl sound.
     
    #66 Van, Jul 28, 2017
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And your credentials are what, as compared to his?
     
    #67 Yeshua1, Jul 28, 2017
  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The answer is because God is Sovereign and he does as he wills.

    Unfortunately, Van, forces the text to say that human faith is the catalyst to redemption, not God's choice.

    Here's what 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says.

    Note that salvation first comes by God's Spirit, which activates our faith. It is all God's work. Van, your opinion is flat out wrong.

    2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
    [13]As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth.
    [14]He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    #68 MennoSota, Jul 28, 2017
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Look out, you are now using the real meaning of the scriptures now!
    Would be interesting to have Dr Wallace debate Van in the Greek on the doctrine of biblical election!
     
    #69 Yeshua1, Jul 28, 2017
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    On and on they go, posting misrepresentations, change of subject topics, and scripture nullification.
    We are saved by grace through faith, thus God credits our faith as righteousness before salvation.

    Did you note that rather than God election being through faith in the truth, the rewriter claims we are saved then given faith. False theology. Just read the NASB, or LEB, or NKJV.
     
    #70 Van, Jul 28, 2017
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    From the beginning refers to the beginning or since the beginning, but does not refer to before the beginning. I believe the beginning in view here (2 Thess. 2:13) is the beginning of the New Covenant, but even if it refers to creation, it conflicts with the A & C claim we were chosen "before" the beginning individually. And note the verse says we are chosen through belief in the truth, therefore during our lifetime, after we have trusted in Christ.

    Some say they believe we were chosen as poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5. Thus again a conditional election during our lifetime, not before creation. Again, both A & C hold another view, one that conflicts with the view stated here.

    1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people, once we had not received mercy, once we lived without mercy. Thus again this says when each of us were conceived, we had not yet been chosen for salvation. But now we are a chosen generation, therefore our individual election occurs during our lifetime, when we are called out of darkness into His light.

    The truth is obvious, both C & A are wrong, our individual election for salvation is (1) conditional based on God crediting our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5, 24) and (2) occurs during our lifetime after we believe in Him, John 3:16.

    Just trust in the plain truth of scripture. The hard part is facing the fact that for 400 years the "name" theologians have missed the obvious.
     
    #71 Van, Jul 28, 2017
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    You don't comprehend that your view teaches that God is weak and he is obligated to the efforts of men to conjure up their own faith.
    You put the cart before the horse and honor the cart for its impressive work.
     
    #72 MennoSota, Jul 28, 2017
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    1) God...from the beginning
    2) chose to save you
    3) by the Spirit of God's setting you apart.
    4) and then your belief of the truth

    Notice the order that Paul so very clearly lays out.

    It is a foolish thing to preach that a man's own conjuring up of faith compels God to redeem that man. Not only is it foolish, it's heresy.
     
    #73 MennoSota, Jul 28, 2017
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    293
    My questions is just so I can grasp your understanding.

    Is the following scripture legit or does this contain a corruption?

    Matthew 19

    26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
     
    #74 utilyan, Jul 28, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is why the Cross id really flloish to the lost, for it reveals that we can do nothing to save ourselves, as we want to "help God out"
     
    #75 Yeshua1, Jul 29, 2017
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pay no attention to this rewriter of scripture, God chose us for salvation through faith in the truth, not God saved us through faith in the truth, or worse save you and give you faith.
     
    #76 Van, Jul 29, 2017
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Asked and answered, please address the subject. Or start or own thread on the subject that God is all powerful. This thread is about Dr. Wallace's view of Election.
     
    #77 Van, Jul 29, 2017
  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Van, I merely point out what the verse YOU posted says. The progression is clear.
    You refuse to pay attention because recognizing God's sovereignty in the verse throws your personal narrative into disarray.
    What any person, led by the Spirit, will do is recognize your false teaching and call you out. I have done this and shown why your narrative is wrong.
    2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say what you claim it says. It is that simple.
     
    #78 MennoSota, Jul 29, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Huh? :confused::eek::Cautious
     
    #79 SovereignGrace, Jul 29, 2017
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    293
    Welcome to the debate board.

    Sorry Van, But you have to retract your post if its off topic insisting we swallow as a given that things are impossible with God to clam me up.

    I didn't go off topic. It appears you claim things impossible for God as a invention, you claim he never predestined anyone, you asked for scripture, and then you got it.

    And I only say APPEARS, because I still don't know what the heck you believe.


    Is there anyone on this thread or board that understands you? Its because of this flaw in communication we ask to clear up what you are "trying" to say.

    I don't agree with C or A but not at the expense of throwing out the baby with bathwater.
     
    #80 utilyan, Jul 29, 2017
Page 4 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...