Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

[Seeker Of Truth]

I must say that I'm surprised at some of the comments written on this thread. It was not my intention to insult or anger anyone here.

Some of you have called me a "racist" and unloving. Some have said I shouldn't judge a dead man but some of you are judging me. Isn't that a contradiction?

I'm not a racist at all, my purpose in exposing MLK was mainly for theological reasons. The Bible tells us that a spiritual man judges everything.

Was I wrong in judging a dead man? Absolutely not, if I follow that logic then I shouldn't expose the past popes, Charles T. Russell, Ellen G. White, and many other heretics of the past.
Does that make any sense to you? We as fundamental Bible believing Christians need to discern in many different areas.

The problem with American Christianity is that many churches teach that we shouldn't judge anyone. They teach that we should be positive and not negative. My friend, the Bible has many negatives things to say. The Gospel itself has some negative things to say to those who rejects it.

Where is the discernment in America today? many churches are compromising and the gospel has been watered down. They no longer preach and sin and hell but instead how you can feel better about yourself. How one can be healthy and rich and just be nice and positive. Don't judge anyone or any false teachers. How sad?

By the way, thanks to those who agree with me on this issue of MLK. Stand up for the truth, we are living in the days of apostasy. Many Christians are blinded of false teachers and doctrines.

I don't go around exposing people's sins we are talking about MLK. MLK claimed to be a reverent and a minister. I'm only testing his claims to see if it squares with the Bible.

Most of these allegations are documented but has been taken down so that many won't be able to research it for themselves.


Some of the documentation at jesus-is-savior.com are not their own but are from those who have taken the time to do some research on MLK.

Just because someone does good works on Earth does not mean that person is saved. We are not saved by good works but by faith. If you don't believe Jesus was God, rejects His resurrection and deny His eternal Sonship and virgin birth then you are a heretic.

This may sound harsh but remember that someone loves the truth will expose errors. Did MLK did some good works? I think so. Was MLK a Christian?I'll let his writings on Jesus and Christianity answer that one.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Pipedude:
The King holiday is a national disgrace and is a foundational pivot in the remaking of America from what the founders envisioned into another type of country.

That might be overstating a bit. I would say that pivot point was when might over came right on the issue of the 10 Amendment... and no, I am not pro-slavery or anything like that.

But the baby did go right out with the bath water. The 10th Amendment was supposed to protect the people from the type of overreaching, all-intrusive federal government we have now. Its demise followed by pro-federal court decisions, legislation, the application of the US Const. to the states, and culminating with the 16th amendment made the period between the Civil War and WWI the foundation for making America "another type of country".

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Seeker Of Truth:
He was born with the name Michael King on Jan. 15, 1929. In 1935 his preacher father decided to name himself after the great Protestant reformer Martin Luther. He announced the congregation about his name change and that his son will be known as Martin Luther King Jr.

So, he was no angel [Michael]? If that is all you're saying, alright.

 

[Filmproducer]

You know I don't even try and explain that not all IFB's are racist anymore. I grew up in the IFB church and I have been indoctrinated with all the hate and nonsense toward MLK, most of which is untrue. When people tell me that Baptists, particularly IFB, are racist I don't argue. Of course not all of you are, but based on this thread and the Rosa Parks thread, not to mention everything I grew up with, a lot of you ARE, whether you want to admit it or not. I tell people that I can only answer for myself. Go on complaining about MLK day, it doesn't matter, it is not going to be changed. Go on finding fault with every single black person who helped out the Civil Rights movement, it will not change their contributions. Go on telling yourself that none of them were Christians, at least good Christians, what you say does not matter, only God can decide their fate. DeeJay made a very good point, that a lot of you seem to ignore. MLK Day is not about MLK so much as it is about celebrating the Civil Rights movement, of which MLK was a key leader and organizer. BTW, Lyndon Johnson signed the CRA of '64 into law, not JFK, as he was assassinated in '63.

 

[Seeker Of Truth]

Why is it that when someone exposes someone of color the racist term is quickly used. Again I'm not a racist and I'm not white. The fact that people in here accuse me of being racist is sad indeed. I think it's a straw man argument to somehow justify your opinion about MLK.

"MLK day is not about MLK so much as it is about celebrating the Civil Rights movement".

I think it's both, it's his birthday that's being observed so it has to do with everything about MLK as a person.

Perhaps if I was to expose a white Christian leader some may stop calling me a racist.

The racist argument is very weak. The thread is not about me but about MLK. Let's stick with the topic and drop the personal attacks.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Originally posted by Scott J:
You did seem to me to have overreacted... do you have some sort of stake in this issue?

I reacted no more overtly to the OP than you did to my post.

I have no stake in the MLK federal holiday nor the man.

I was simply responding to what I saw as a character assassination disguised as a call for discussion.

 

[Pipedude]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pipedude:
I myself don't have the time to write another essay documenting the problems with King. Many have been written by his sympathizers (excusing him, of course). But my summary would be that his self-avowed Marxism, his repeated hiring of Communists, and his obvious sympathy with the many Communist fronts he fellowshipped with, disqualify him as a great American.

Your excellent sources are obviously better than the FBI since after six years of investigation, they had no evidence of the above claims with the exception of having two alleged former CPUSA members in his advisory staff. </font>[/QUOTE]"The above claims" are that he was a self-avowed Marxist and that he fellowshipped and sympathized with many Communist fronts. Those historical facts are above question and are not disputed by the FBI.

And, BTW, those were not "alleged former" members of the CPUSA. They were Communists, and he fired them under duress and then hired them back after the heat was off. What would you think if I hired Nazis for my board of directors, hmmm?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Filmproducer:
BTW, Lyndon Johnson signed the CRA of '64 into law, not JFK, as he was assassinated in '63.

I am very aware of that. However the force and idealism behind it were Kennedy's, not LBJ's. In fact, I have read that its passage was probably pushed over the top by Kennedy's death and had he lived it might not have gone through.

 

[Filmproducer]

Seeker,

Wow, you are really sensitive. I was not particularly calling you a racist. I don't even know you. I was talking about IFB's, in general. The comment was based on my experiences and some of the comments I have seen on this and other threads. I was giving my opinion on all of these pointless, and yes, offensive, threads I have seen and read. I am not necessarily singling anyone out.

Again, and I say this in general. Question the man all you want. It will not change anything. What is the point? Do you really think that people celebrate MLK's religious beliefs? Honestly the majority of people don't even care about MLK's religious beliefs, the day is about the Civil Rights movement. MLK's birthday was chosen because he was a driving force behind the movement, not to mention, he was assassinated.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Scarlett O.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
You did seem to me to have overreacted... do you have some sort of stake in this issue?

I reacted no more overtly to the OP than you did to my post.

</font>[/QUOTE] As far as I can tell and I read it again, my post addresses the false or unsound assertions in your post.

MLK accomplished some good things. He had flaws. Some people agreed with him. Some didn't and don't.

I do think a Civil Rights day would be far more appropriate and "inclusive" than singling out this one (possibly controversial) figure. He is the only American that still has a holiday in his personal honor.

I'm sorry but he wasn't the most important person in the past 50 years much less the whole history of our country.

I was simply responding to what I saw as a character assassination disguised as a call for discussion.

So we shouldn't question the character of people who step out on to the public stage? We shouldn't question those who are referred to as "role models"?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Originally posted by Scott J:
I'm sorry but he wasn't the most important person in the past 50 years much less the whole history of our country.

I agree. I never intimated otherwise.

So we shouldn't question the character of people who step out on to the public stage? We shouldn't question those who are referred to as "role models"?

Questioning is one thing. The OP was something else entirely.

 

[just-want-peace]

PCism is alive and thriving!!!!!

 

[IFB Mole]

We know MLK was not a perfect man, as JFK wasn't either, but if you aren't black and have been a victim of racism, you just don't know what its like. Racism IS alive in America and because of MLK it is not nearly as bad as it could be. As stated before he is lauded not for his theology but his peaceful protesting against racism. He was a champion of civil rights - and that's good for ALL Americans

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
We know MLK was not a perfect man, as JFK wasn't either, but if you aren't black and have been a victim of racism, you just don't know what its like.

If someone had been on the wrong end of affirmative action and experienced reverse discrimination, how close would that come?

As a college ROTC cadet, I had hoped to have a military career. As part of our package for branch and active duty assignment, we were required to submit a photo. Unofficially, race was not to be considered. Officially, the Army had guidelines that pressured them to favor minorities and females. A olive skinned white guy, 2 females, and black guy that had lower total scores than my overall score were given preference over me.

I was denied the career I had hoped for since a kid... so yes, it is possible for a white man to know what it is like to be treated unfairly because of the color of their skin or their gender.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The USPS was on the losing end of arbitration as a result of such, as well as a local college where I used to live, USC, and the NYC PD.

The USPS overhired certain minorities as part of their quota, while passing over more qualified caucasians.

The local college hired a black woman over a white woman, even though the white woman had more experience and qualifications. The interesting thing about this is that the courts told them they had to hire a black person, then the same courts told them they discriminated by hiring the black person.

USC denied enrollment to an Asian as a part of an "over-represented" minority, although her test scores were way above those they accepted.

In NYC, it was a black sergeant who sued because out of a class of 72, he scored the highest score. However, blacks could score 20 points lower and still pass. Why did he sue? Because he scored the highest, but everyone looked at him like, "Well, I know how you got your job!"

Public jobs should be based on merit; private jobs should be based on the whims of the owner, legally. (Morally, the owner should be fair.)

My son, who is technically hispanic because my wife is from PR, qualified for the gifted program at school. They didn't know that he was a minority, but they were ecstatic when they found out because it helped them fill their quotas for minorities. I'm just thankful that they found out after the fact, or I would be concerned about why he was in the class.

 

[Scott J]

There has been a shift in the past few years. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

My experience was from the mid-80's and specifically intended to answer the claim that only blacks know how it feels to be on the receiving end of racial discrimination.

 

[IFB Mole]

For every case of "reverse' discrimination there are probably HUNDREDS of cases of discrimination and if taken over say just the 20th century I would say the ratio exceeds 100:1, no need to whine.

Successful minorities that have experienced discrimination almost their entire lives make NO excuses, but instead take action. They pick themselves up by the boot straps and keep on keep'n on. Instead of whining and complaining about "racism" and bigotry they live, make due with what they have and all the opportunities in America and MAKE THINGS HAPPEN.

I guess after a couple hundred years of discrimination against primarily blacks, caucasions are now getting a SMALL taste of what they have endured for CENTURIES with "reverse discrimination"

Hay, whitey - GET OVER IT !!!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Apparently, the mindset in the US has gone from "fair" to "payback". Although I am curious as to why I owe anyone anything. Could you explain that?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
For every case of "reverse' discrimination there are probably HUNDREDS of cases of discrimination and if taken over say just the 20th century I would say the ratio exceeds 100:1, no need to whine.

Is that admonition good for just the "1" or for the "100" also?

BTW, I wasn't whining. I picked up, moved on, and am now thankful for the way it worked out. I was specifically speaking to your false claim.

Successful minorities that have experienced discrimination almost their entire lives make NO excuses, but instead take action.

Agree... except with the notion that they have experienced "discrimination almost their whole lives". That's a cop out and ready made excuse for any hardship one encounters.

BTW, I took action and have been successful at something else.

They pick themselves up by the boot straps and keep on keep'n on. Instead of whining and complaining about "racism" and bigotry they live, make due with what they have and all the opportunities in America and MAKE THINGS HAPPEN.

Who are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton appealing to?

I guess after a couple hundred years of discrimination against primarily blacks, caucasions are now getting a SMALL taste of what they have endured for CENTURIES with "reverse discrimination"

That is historical revisionism. The treatment of blacks in this country while unjust and oppressive is by no means the worst example in history of man's treatment of man.

Since when do two wrongs make a right anyway? You think it is "good" for one person to be unfairly treated based on their race because someone of a different race was previously treated unfairly? Do you really think justice was served when I was punished for someone else's transgressions?

Hay, whitey - GET OVER IT !!!

That is exactly the kind of attitude that keeps racial tension going. A black person should be just as unhappy at seeing a white person treated unfairly as a black person... and vice versa.

Our objective should be that people are judged on the content of their character and their ability rather than the benign trait of skin color. Continuing the rationalization of racial preference of one over the other does nothing to serve that end but rather incites continued antagonism.

 

[IFB Mole]

Hope,

Actually it seems to me that we have gone from "not fair" (bigotry and racism pre-civil rights time) to a more fair society. I realize that there are times when race/sex is brought to the forefront in job or education opportunities to the detriment of white males, but it pales the exact opposite occuring over the last even 50 years.

I think the U.S. is more fair now then ever before. Pre MLK, discrimination (race/sex) was a way of life and totally accepted in America. My goodness when you look at old black and white pictures of the past the whole working force (not during WWII) was almost exlusively white males. The Civil Rights movement in the 60's probably changed that the most and MLK was the poster child of the Civil Rights movement.

Though discrimination is still around -probably the most affected are minority women, opportunites never the less or better now then ever before and MOST give MLK and the Civil rights movement of the 60's as the focal point as to why they are betetr than ever. Look how long it took to get a woman and a minority on the Supreme Court!!

America IS the land of opportunity.

[ January 11, 2006, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: IFB Mole ]