Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.
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"Draw" in Jn 6:44--What does it mean in your opinion???
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The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.
freeatlast
New Member
How is it rude? The bible says we shall be holy and you say it will never happen. I suppose it is possible you are not aware of the passages that states that and if so I apologize for assuming you do know of them, but if you know of the passages and say it is not true then you do not believe the word of God like I said.
Psalm 86:2
Preserve my soul; for I [am] holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
1Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
I said here on earth no one is holy in our deeds. Do you sin? If you have ever sinned, you are not holy.
In Christ, we are considered holy because we have the righteousness of Christ.
Let's get back to the actual discussion.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
UNLESS you have faith in Christ...
This is the point. God made a way for us to become holy, so to deny that God provides the means to accomplish what he commands is unfounded. He told us to be holy and provided the way that we could. He always grants the means to accomplish that which he commands of us.
we believe in the Bible , its just we do NOT agree that your understanding of that part of it is "biblical!"
of course. Why would you think I would say otherwise? You guys missed my point...carry on back to the op.
convicted1
Guest
The best biblical usage of the word draw would be Moses. For he was drawn out of the water.
convicted1
Guest
Zactly!! God sees us through the shed blood of Christ. We are clothed in Christ's righteousness, which, in turn, makes us righteous. Well stated Brother.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
which passage are you referring to? Ex 2:10 or is there a NT reference to that?
convicted1
Guest
Using this for a little levity.....
Reply to DaChaser1;
Yes, to cook a book refers to altering a true record, such that it presents falsehood. Calvinism cooks the Bible.
No, John 12:32 does not say Jesus will draw elect men. That addition of your is what I call cooking the books. It says all men, but since the idea is the men would be aware that Jesus was crucified, i.e. high and lifted up, it can be understood to say all men who hear and understand the gospel.
All men who hear and understand the gospel would be attracted like the last three soils of Matthew 13, but not all would believe from their heart and thus God would not give to Jesus those whose faith He did not credit as righteousness.
My view is consistent with what the Bible actually says, rather than what Calvinism claims it says. My problem apparently is that I can read.
Yes, to cook a book refers to altering a true record, such that it presents falsehood. Calvinism cooks the Bible.
No, John 12:32 does not say Jesus will draw elect men. That addition of your is what I call cooking the books. It says all men, but since the idea is the men would be aware that Jesus was crucified, i.e. high and lifted up, it can be understood to say all men who hear and understand the gospel.
All men who hear and understand the gospel would be attracted like the last three soils of Matthew 13, but not all would believe from their heart and thus God would not give to Jesus those whose faith He did not credit as righteousness.
My view is consistent with what the Bible actually says, rather than what Calvinism claims it says. My problem apparently is that I can read.
You have to read through the NT to see how the Bible itself qualifies the tern "All men", and its made quite evident and clear that those whom will be crawn and accept the Cross and get saved are those whom God has elected in Christ!
Interesting that you ALWAY call it calvinism, we just tend to call it 'being biblical!"
psalms109:31
Active Member
I have believed it to be all and world, not the world man sees it as but as God sees the world, all my life from the beginning and I do pray that God will continue the hope He gave me through His word. It is simple who the elect are, it is those who trust in the Lord. God said Himself that He will keep the meek and humble who will trust in the Lord. He also said He will hide the truth from the wise and learned. Those who lean on their own understanding.
It is obvious who they are, those who are in Jesus, and it is in Jesus who was chosen before the foundation of the world. God isn't making some random choice.
This doesn't happen until Jesus is glorified, so before the cross and Him being lifted up God choose messengers to seek men to tell them of the one to come our righteousness and seek out the the elect. Since no one seeks God and no one is good , no one is righteous, they are sinners the one's who Jesus came to be save.
When Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men and since all authority has been given to Him, the only one's who will come are those who listen and learn from Him.
It is obvious who they are, those who are in Jesus, and it is in Jesus who was chosen before the foundation of the world. God isn't making some random choice.
This doesn't happen until Jesus is glorified, so before the cross and Him being lifted up God choose messengers to seek men to tell them of the one to come our righteousness and seek out the the elect. Since no one seeks God and no one is good , no one is righteous, they are sinners the one's who Jesus came to be save.
When Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men and since all authority has been given to Him, the only one's who will come are those who listen and learn from Him.
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no, we can read the bible, its just that we all tend to read it through the lense of our Calvin tinted "heretical" goggles!
Think Van thinks those glasses came from same site as those given to Joseph Smith!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Still waiting.... :1_grouphug:
In order to have the scripture prophecies of the OT fulfilled in his ministry among those people who should have accepted him as their prophesied messiah, but rejected him instead!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
With all due respect, this doesn't answer the question, it only affirms the apparent contradiction that there is the need to blind those who were born totally blind according to Calvinism.
that IS the answer though, at least from the Bible!
"so that the scriptures might be fulfilled in your hearing!"
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