"Draw" in Jn 6:44--What does it mean in your opinion???

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Skandelon
I still haven't heard a sufficient answer for this question:

If men are all born Totally Depraved in the sense that they cannot willingly believe and repent even if confronted with the clear gospel appeal, then why did Jesus hide the truth from them in parables to prevent the Israelite audiences from believing and repenting? (ref. Mark 4, Matt 13 etc)
Still waiting.... :1_grouphug:

I don't claim to be a Calvinist however I do believe in total depravity. That being said to answer your question I believe that God calls all men and that initial calling causes men to feel a need for God, but He also allows the person to reject/refuse the call and harden their hearts to the place where the call is removed and God hardens their heart.

2Thess 2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe that the Lord spoke in parables because these people had already went too far and His offer of salvation was removed. Because the word of God holds the power of faith if they had been able to understand they could have been saved, but thta offer was off the table for them because they went too far in my understanding so he still spoke truth, but in confusion to them.

 

[DaChaser1]

I don't claim to be a Calvinist however I do believe in total depravity. That being said to answer your question I believe that God calls all men and that initial calling causes men to feel a need for God, but He also allows the person to reject/refuse the call and harden their hearts to the place where the call is removed and God hardens their heart.

2Thess 2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe that the Lord spoke in parables because these people had already went too far and His offer of salvation was removed.

Well...

IF mankind is totally depraived, which we are were born as, NONE of us have that choice to accept/reject Jesus thoguh!
We are either depraived or not, no middle ground!

 

[freeatlast]

Well...

IF mankind is totally depraived, which we are were born as, NONE of us have that choice to accept/reject Jesus thoguh!
We are either depraived or not, no middle ground!

I gave no middle ground. Read my post.

 

[DaChaser1]

I gave no middle ground. Read my post.

I did read your post, and you advocated God sends us grace, but up to us to receive jesus in order to get saved!

We co assist God in this process!

 

[webdog]

I did read your post, and you advocated God sends us grace, but up to us to receive jesus in order to get saved!

We co assist God in this process!

Do you "co assist" a gift giver by receiving it? What part in purchasing, wrapping and giving it to yourself do you play? You refuse to answer this and keep spewing your nonsense!

 

[Skandelon]

Do you "co assist" a gift giver by receiving it? What part in purchasing, wrapping and giving it to yourself do you play?

Webdog, don't you know that if someone can reject your gift then you really didn't offer it to them, and if they accept it then it must mean they really gave it to themselves. Everyone knows that. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Skandelon]

I don't claim to be a Calvinist however I do believe in total depravity. That being said to answer your question I believe that God calls all men and that initial calling causes men to feel a need for God

Then you don't believe in Total Depravity as it is taught by Calvinism, because they wouldn't affirm that the initial calling would cause men to feel a need.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, don't you know that if someone can reject your gift then you really didn't offer it to them, and if they accept it then it must mean they really gave it to themselves. Everyone knows that. :smilewinkgrin:

I think it's quite hysterical that DaJesusFanChaser completely ignores this question...yet continues to post the same thing on multiple threads. Intellectual dishonesty at it's lowest.

 

[DaChaser1]

Do you "co assist" a gift giver by receiving it? What part in purchasing, wrapping and giving it to yourself do you play? You refuse to answer this and keep spewing your nonsense!

Do you exercise repentance and personal faith to respond to the Gospel by act of your "free will", or are they all the gifts of God towards you?

 

[webdog]

Do you exercise repentance and personal faith to respond to the Gospel by act of your "free will", or are they all the gifts of God towards you?

Why don't you just ANSWER THE STINKING QUESTION without always inserting your red herring?!? :BangHead::BangHead:

 

[Skandelon]

Do you exercise repentance and personal faith to respond to the Gospel by act of your "free will", or are they all the gifts of God towards you?

Yes......... (noticing a pattern?)

 

[freeatlast]

I did read your post, and you advocated God sends us grace, but up to us to receive jesus in order to get saved!

We co assist God in this process!

That is what the bible teaches.
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

[freeatlast]

Then you don't believe in Total Depravity as it is taught by Calvinism, because they wouldn't affirm that the initial calling would cause men to feel a need.

What do they teach the calling does?

 

[Skandelon]

What do they teach the calling does?

In their system, it does nothing for the non-elect because they are spiritually dead and thus can't really 'hear, see, understand and repent.'

I believe that is the condition of a judicially hardened individual, not the condition of all men from birth, as Calvinists do.

Consider what Paul taught in Acts 28:

24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Notice this difference in the Jews who have 'grown calloused' and the Gentiles who are just now being sent God's revelation. Calvinists make the mistake of assuming all men are born calloused in the way the Jews were described here, but that is not ever taught in scripture.

 

[freeatlast]

In their system, it does nothing for the non-elect because they are spiritually dead and thus can't really 'hear, see, understand and repent.'

I believe that is the condition of a judicially hardened individual, not the condition of all men from birth, as Calvinists do.

Consider what Paul taught in Acts 28:

24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Notice this difference in the Jews who have 'grown calloused' and the Gentiles who are just now being sent God's revelation. Calvinists make the mistake of assuming all men are born calloused in the way the Jews were described here, but that is not ever taught in scripture.

Well then if this is what they believe it would seem that God's calling is a waste of time.

 

[Skandelon]

Well then is this is what they believe it would seem that God's calling is a waste of time.

No, because they believe the 'general calling' of the gospel is the means God has chosen to bring His elect ones to faith and repentance. So, while the gospel would be worthless to the non-elect they don't claim to know who is and who isn't elect, so they still believe that the gospel should be preached to all. Most Calvinists I know are evangelistic and missional. Only 'hyper' groups deny the need for evangelism.

 

[freeatlast]

No, because they believe the 'general calling' of the gospel is the means God has chosen to bring His elect ones to faith and repentance. So, while the gospel would be worthless to the non-elect they don't claim to know who is and who isn't elect, so they still believe that the gospel should be preached to all. Most Calvinists I know are evangelistic and missional. Only 'hyper' groups deny the need for evangelism.

I think I will stick to the bible which I see teaching both election and free will working together to save some even if I cannot explain how it works.

 

[Skandelon]

I think I will stick to the bible which I see teaching both election and free will working together to save some even if I cannot explain how it works.

Granted, none of us can fully understand how it all works, but we can understand the parts of it that have been clearly revealed and those are the parts I'm attempting to discuss with you.

 

[freeatlast]

Granted, none of us can fully understand how it all works, but we can understand the parts of it that have been clearly revealed and those are the parts I'm attempting to discuss with you.

All right. I believe that God elects and man freely chooses.

 

[Van]

No, because they believe the 'general calling' of the gospel is the means God has chosen to bring His elect ones to faith and repentance. So, while the gospel would be worthless to the non-elect they don't claim to know who is and who isn't elect, so they still believe that the gospel should be preached to all. Most Calvinists I know are evangelistic and missional. Only 'hyper' groups deny the need for evangelism.

They believe if an elect baby is aborted, the baby is somehow given faith and enters the kingdom of the elect. Thus if any elect did not hear the gospel, they too would be saved. So what then is left? Why preach the gospel - because that is what God commands, even though it does not alter the predestined outcome of every life.