" Drawing "

[Bro. Williams]

BW : " I believe sparingly in mistake , as an English major and I spoke about last year ." Huh ?!

Reference the prior sentence, it makes more sense that way. Let me rephrase though, "I spoke with an English major that I worked with last year, concerning the lack of use of the word "cannot" in modern English." Is that better?

Here's what you said on 7/20 of this year regarding how meticulous you are with your English usage as you were chastising someone . : " Please , take no offense . I am anal on [ sic] these things by habit..."

Context son, context. That was in referencing the Bible and correctly quoting it and copying it. Nice try on the false accusation though... well no, not really.

Now , let's get back to the subject at-hand . Don't take any unwarranted name-calling detours this time BW . Can I "draw" you back to the topic ? ( Pun intended

A lie is a lie, bub. I will not apologize for calling it as it is. But, if you wish to get back to the OP, by all means, you first.

 

[Rippon]

Yeah , a lie is a lie kitty . The word lie is a strong word . Tell the folks what "lie" I told BW . Use the word sparingly . It may come back to haunt you sonny .

And , what's the matter ? Are you afraid of addressing the subject of this thread ? Perhaps you're used to insulting folks instead of dealing with substantive stuff .

 

[skypair]

In a sense, "works Righteousness"?

Don't know what your implications are but I'll say no. Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." Believing is NOT works, friend.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You repent...

God regenerates..?

Now you're catching on. Conversion, then regeneration.

skypair

 

[Bro. Williams]

Yeah , a lie is a lie kitty . The word lie is a strong word . Tell the folks what "lie" I told BW . Use the word sparingly . It may come back to haunt you sonny .

And , what's the matter ? Are you afraid of addressing the subject of this thread ? Perhaps you're used to insulting folks instead of dealing with substantive stuff .

1) A lie is a lie, thanks for admitting that.

2) I already told them

3) I am sure it will haunt me as it does all men. Romans 3:4

4) I already addressed the thread.

5) Being called out in a sin shouldn't be insulting, but humbling.

 

[Rippon]

Your concept of lying is lacking Mr. Lion . I had simply made a statement to the effect that the English word "men" has no equivalent in the original language of John 12:32 . When I said "in the original" I meant the manuscripts of the early centuries . I did not say or mean that we have access to the original autographs . Why you have seen fit to label me a liar for that is a mystery . No one else has made that charge . It's shorthand to say "in the original(s)" . If anyone else feels that BW is justified in making that charge against me-- please speak up . Those who feel that BW has been woefully out-of-line on this matter can also have your say-so .

For my take --for you to continue applying that unwarranted accusation against me is sinful .

You had asked some questions in two posts related to the OP . I will answer them .

Was He lifted up ? Yes .

Are all men drawn to Him ? I'll rephrase your mistranslation . "Are all drawn to Him " ? No , if you mean every single person who has lived , is living , and shall live . Were all people before He was lifted up drawn to Him as well ? The obvious answer is no . However , as I have pointed out many times now -- you have to account for the "drawing" texts of John 6 .

The Lord does not draw all in John 6 . How do you reconcile that with 12:32 ? Well , 12:32 must be speaking of all of His own people -- meaning the elect ( not Jews only ) .

In John 6:39 Christ Jesus says : " And this is the will of him who sent me , that I shall lose none of all those he has given me , but raise them up at the last day ." ( TNIV ) . Notice that the Lord says that he "shall lose none of all those he has given me" . The word "all" is a subset -- all of a group . "All those who are heavy-laden" is another "all" which does not mean each and every one -- but every person of a group .

Was Christ's atonement for all ? No , it was not . He did not stand in the place of , in the room of , in the stead of , substitutionally "for" reprobates .

Was it only for the elect ? Yes , it was . The elect are His sole beneficiaries . They alone are the sheep for which He died . They alone are the Church for which he gave Himself . He died to save those He loved . He died for those He caused to believe -- no one else .

 

[reformedbeliever]

Your concept of lying is lacking Mr. Lion . I had simply made a statement to the effect that the English word "men" has no equivalent in the original language of John 12:32 . When I said "in the original" I meant the manuscripts of the early centuries . I did not say or mean that we have access to the original autographs . Why you have seen fit to label me a liar for that is a mystery . No one else has made that charge . It's shorthand to say "in the original(s)" . If anyone else feels that BW is justified in making that charge against me-- please speak up . Those who feel that BW has been woefully out-of-line on this matter can also have your say-so .

For my take --for you to continue applying that unwarranted accusation against me is sinful .

You had asked some questions in two posts related to the OP . I will answer them .

Was He lifted up ? Yes .

Are all men drawn to Him ? I'll rephrase your mistranslation . "Are all drawn to Him " ? No , if you mean every single person who has lived , is living , and shall live . Were all people before He was lifted up drawn to Him as well ? The obvious answer is no . However , as I have pointed out many times now -- you have to account for the "drawing" texts of John 6 .

The Lord does not draw all in John 6 . How do you reconcile that with 12:32 ? Well , 12:32 must be speaking of all of His own people -- meaning the elect ( not Jews only ) .

In John 6:39 Christ Jesus says : " And this is the will of him who sent me , that I shall lose none of all those he has given me , but raise them up at the last day ." ( TNIV ) . Notice that the Lord says that he "shall lose none of all those he has given me" . The word "all" is a subset -- all of a group . "All those who are heavy-laden" is another "all" which does not mean each and every one -- but every person of a group .

Was Christ's atonement for all ? No , it was not . He did not stand in the place of , in the room of , in the stead of , substitutionally "for" reprobates .

Was it only for the elect ? Yes , it was . The elect are His sole beneficiaries . They alone are the sheep for which He died . They alone are the Church for which he gave Himself . He died to save those He loved . He died for those He caused to believe -- no one else .

I certainly feel it is out of line. I'll not be reading much of what he has to say in the future.... one is because of his slander of you Rippon.... the other is because of his faulty view of his "perfect" bible.

 

[Bro. Williams]

I certainly feel it is out of line. I'll not be reading much of what he has to say in the future.... one is because of his slander of you Rippon.... the other is because of his faulty view of his "perfect" bible.

Woe is me. I shall count my loss.

 

[Bro. Williams]

Your concept of lying is lacking Mr. Lion . I had simply made a statement to the effect that the English word "men" has no equivalent in the original language of John 12:32 . When I said "in the original" I meant the manuscripts of the early centuries . I did not say or mean that we have access to the original autographs . Why you have seen fit to label me a liar for that is a mystery . No one else has made that charge . It's shorthand to say "in the original(s)" . If anyone else feels that BW is justified in making that charge against me-- please speak up . Those who feel that BW has been woefully out-of-line on this matter can also have your say-so .

Saying one thing and meaning another, on purpose, is deceit, which is lying. BTW, having numbers to back you will not justify your sin.

For my take --for you to continue applying that unwarranted accusation against me is sinful .

Your take doesn't count, only the take of the Bible. I can prove a lie is a sin. You cannot prove correcting someone in a blatant lie is a sin. In fact, we are called to do such.

You had asked some questions in two posts related to the OP . I will answer them .

Was He lifted up ? Yes .

Are all men drawn to Him ? I'll rephrase your mistranslation .

You mean, your opinion of the KJV's mistranslation, based on your understanding.

The rest of your exposition is an effort to support Calvin and belittle what the Bible clearly teaches, salvation for all.

 

[Rippon]

When will you get this through your thick lion's mane --- I don't check with Calvin's writings to see if I line up with his expositions . Neither do other Calvinists on the BB . You probably know that already yet persist in your baseless charges anyway . If you know the truth ,yet continue in your mendacity what does that make you ?

For a lion you seem very timid about responding to meaninful discussion of biblical texts . You'd rather just snipe away with your contentless and debased posts .

I am not belittling the Bible , i am trying to explain it . If my understanding doesn't suit your KJVO tastes then so be it . But don't do drive-bys and expect any respect from others .

If you disagree with what I said in answering your specific questions -- why did you ask them in the first place ? If you object to my explanation of the texts in questions -- deal with them head-on . Don't just do your bumper car routine .

 

[Bismarck]

Your concept of lying is lacking Mr. Lion . I had simply made a statement to the effect that the English word "men" has no equivalent in the original language of John 12:32 . When I said "in the original" I meant the manuscripts of the early centuries . I did not say or mean that we have access to the original autographs . Why you have seen fit to label me a liar for that is a mystery . No one else has made that charge . It's shorthand to say "in the original(s)" . If anyone else feels that BW is justified in making that charge against me-- please speak up . Those who feel that BW has been woefully out-of-line on this matter can also have your say-so .

For my take --for you to continue applying that unwarranted accusation against me is sinful .

You had asked some questions in two posts related to the OP . I will answer them .

Was He lifted up ? Yes .

Are all men drawn to Him ? I'll rephrase your mistranslation . "Are all drawn to Him " ? No , if you mean every single person who has lived , is living , and shall live . Were all people before He was lifted up drawn to Him as well ? The obvious answer is no . However , as I have pointed out many times now -- you have to account for the "drawing" texts of John 6 .

The "obvious" reading of Scripture is "all", for that is what Scripture says.

The Lord does not draw all in John 6 . How do you reconcile that with 12:32 ? Well , 12:32 must be speaking of all of His own people -- meaning the elect ( not Jews only ) .

In John 6:39 Christ Jesus says : " And this is the will of him who sent me , that I shall lose none of all those he has given me , but raise them up at the last day ." ( TNIV ) . Notice that the Lord says that he "shall lose none of all those he has given me" . The word "all" is a subset -- all of a group . "All those who are heavy-laden" is another "all" which does not mean each and every one -- but every person of a group .

The Greek word translated as "will" is thelema (G2307). It means "desire" or "pleasure". It is "what God wishes".

In the Septuagint Greek Old Testament, that word is used to translate the Hebrew word chephets (H2656), which means "desire". For example:

And Hiram sent to Solomon, saying, 'I have considered the things which thou sentest to me for: and I will do all thy desire concerning timber of cedar, and concerning timber of fir. My servants shall bring them down from Lebanon unto the sea: and I will convey them by sea in floats unto the place that thou shalt appoint me, and will cause them to be discharged there, and thou shalt receive them: and thou shalt accomplish my desire, in giving food for my household. So Hiram gave Solomon cedar trees and fir trees according to all his desire.'
1 Kings 5:9-10​

But what God wishes & desires for mankind to do is rarely — never (Rom 3:23) apart from the Grace of God — what mankind does do.

Mankind can reject God's Will.

Please watch this. In Eden, God commanded Adam:

And YHWH God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:'
Gen 2:16-17​

But then

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:6
​

Or, how about this:

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Ex 20:14​

But then:

And David sent and enquired after the woman. And one said, 'Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?' And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness: and she returned unto her house.
2 Samuel 11:3-4​

God's will can be thwarted and rejected. That is called sin. It's the whole problem.


You are NOT reading Scripture.

God does not say, "none will be lost", but rather it is His desire/pleasure/wish/will that none be lost.

Those extra "modifiers" in the sentence change (modify) the meaning.

You are not reading carefully.

Was Christ's atonement for all ? No , it was not . He did not stand in the place of , in the room of , in the stead of , substitutionally "for" reprobates .

Was it only for the elect ? Yes , it was . The elect are His sole beneficiaries . They alone are the sheep for which He died . They alone are the Church for which he gave Himself . He died to save those He loved . He died for those He caused to believe -- no one else .

This is your "eisegesis", and is not directly related to the Scriptures you cite.

 

[Bro. Williams]

When will you get this through your thick lion's mane --- I don't check with Calvin's writings to see if I line up with his expositions . Neither do other Calvinists on the BB . You probably know that already yet persist in your baseless charges anyway . If you know the truth ,yet continue in your mendacity what does that make you ?

For a lion you seem very timid about responding to meaninful discussion of biblical texts . You'd rather just snipe away with your contentless and debased posts .

I am not belittling the Bible , i am trying to explain it . If my understanding doesn't suit your KJVO tastes then so be it . But don't do drive-bys and expect any respect from others .

If you disagree with what I said in answering your specific questions -- why did you ask them in the first place ? If you object to my explanation of the texts in questions -- deal with them head-on . Don't just do your bumper car routine .

Your threats and ramblings do little to sway the facts, although it is a typical smokescreen. Respect from mortal man is not a great concern of mine, but thanks for the warning.

 

[Rippon]

BW : My threats , what threats ? Please read more carefully . Don't read into anything . Don't attribute to others your failings . I thought I had made myself very clear . Everyone but you is able to see and understand clear , straightforward language .

Deal with biblical texts which are related to the OP , or bow out . Join another thread where you actually interact with the subject of the OP .

 

[Rippon]

God's Will Cannot be Thwarted

BM : Your position is against the Word of God . Just for starters, here are few passages .

Psalm 33:10,11 : The Lord foils the plans of the nations ; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples . But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever , the purposes of his heart through all generations .

Isaiah 14:27 : For the LORD Almighty has purposed , and who can thwart him ? His hand is stretched out , and who can turn it back ?

Daniel 4:35 : All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing . He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth . No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done ?"

 

[Bro. Williams]

BW : My threats , what threats ?

If someone tells me to do something, there is typically some weight behind it. I guess not in your case.

Please read more carefully .

okay

Don't read into anything .

Not possible. "Anything" is so inclusive.

Don't attribute to others your failings .

I don't. We all fail quit adequately ourselves.

I thought I had made myself very clear .

sometimes. but your opinion is biased, for obviously it is clear to yourself.

Everyone but you is able to see and understand clear , straightforward language .

everyone? are you lying again? you told me not to read into anything, but that is very hard to take as-is.

Deal with biblical texts which are related to the OP , or bow out .

should i require you to do the same in every thread? you too would fail.or do you not count? wait, are you moderating now?

Join another thread where you actually interact with the subject of the OP .

no interaction, :tear: that must be it, im just lonely.

 

[Bismarck]

BM : Your position is against the Word of God . Just for starters, here are few passages .

Psalm 33:10,11 : The Lord foils the plans of the nations ; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples . But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever , the purposes of his heart through all generations .

Isaiah 14:27 : For the LORD Almighty has purposed , and who can thwart him ? His hand is stretched out , and who can turn it back ?

Daniel 4:35 : All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing . He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth . No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done ?"

Was it YHWH-God's plan for Adam to disobey His commandment, and to eat of the forbidden fruit, and be expelled from Paradise?

To wit, YHWH-God gave a command, but purposed for that command to be violated?

"No means yes" with YHWH-God?!?!

 

[Bismarck]

BM : Your position is against the Word of God . Just for starters, here are few passages .

Psalm 33:10,11 : The Lord foils the plans of the nations ; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples . But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever , the purposes of his heart through all generations .

Isaiah 14:27 : For the LORD Almighty has purposed , and who can thwart him ? His hand is stretched out , and who can turn it back ?

Daniel 4:35 : All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing . He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth . No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done ?"

The desires of mankind are often not the desires of YHWH-God:

'For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways', saith YHWH.
Isaiah 55:8

And they said, 'There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.'
Jeremiah 18:12​

I agree that YHWH-God has only to say, "let it be", and it is (Gen 1). YHWH-God's purposes always come to pass. But, do you know what His purposes are? Are you certain that YHWH-God's will = save elect, elect only some, etc??

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:33-36​

"Wielding Scripture" is a mighty task. It is not easy. But, we are not directly dealing with the issue. Your Scriptures show that God's Will is not thwarted...

but you are logically assuming, w/o proving from Scripture, that Calvinist doctrine = God's Will...

and that is a gargantuan assumption (!!).


In Psalm 33:11, the LXX reads, "But the counsel of the Lord to the eon abides". The word "counsel" is boule (G1012). This very word appears, amongst other places in the NT, in Hebrews 6:17, "Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath."

...

I NEED TO COMPLETE THIS POST BUT I HAVE TO SURRENDER THE COMPUTER AT PRESENT

 

[Rippon]

BM : Forget your line of argumentation about me pushing "Calvinist doctrine" . I use the Word of God to support my beliefs . Right now I am pressed for time .

Only some are chosen . Some are redeemed . Some are drawn . Some are sheep . Some have Christ's righteousness imputed to them . Some are joint-heirs . Some receive mercy . Some are foreknown , predestined , called , justified and finally glorified . But all of the aforementioned are the very same individuals bought with His precious blood .

Yes , I am certain from the Scriptures that it's God's will to save some -- the elect . Is that so surprising ? Actually non-Calvinists end up agreeing with this also . Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be saved . The number can not be increased or diminished . We know for certain that a number of folks are ordained for condemnation .

So as much as many contend against the limited scope of redemption --even the objectors ( if true Christians ) will acknowledge in the end that those , and those only , whose names are in the L'sBoL will be going to Heaven .

If one believes that all will go to Heaven they are Universalists - which is not a Christian doctrine and can't be harmonized with the teachings of Holy writ .

 

[Bismarck]

BM : Your position is against the Word of God . Just for starters, here are few passages .

Psalm 33:10,11 : The Lord foils the plans of the nations ; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples . But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever , the purposes of his heart through all generations .

Isaiah 14:27 : For the LORD Almighty has purposed , and who can thwart him ? His hand is stretched out , and who can turn it back ?

Daniel 4:35 : All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing . He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth . No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done ?"

John 6 (NASB)
37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent me, that of all that He has given me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I myself will raise him up on the last day."​

(1) The English word "will" is translated from the Greek word thelema (G2307), which means "will, desire, pleasure".

(2) The Greek word thelema (G2307) appears 37 times in the Greek Old Testament (LXX). There, it represents the Hebrew word khafets (H2656) from the Hebrew Old Testament (Masoretic).

khafets (H2656) means "delight, pleasure".

CONCLUSION: It is YHWH-God's khafets ("desire") that the Messiah lose none of those God gives to him, so that they receive ever-lasting life and be raised up on the Last Day.

Psalm 33 (NASB)
10 YHWH nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of YHWH stands forever,
The plans of His heart from generation to generation.​

The English word "counsel" is translated from the Hebrew word atsa (H6098), which means "counsel, advice, purpose". It comes from the root ya'ats (H3289) meaning "purpose, devise, plan".

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX), the Greek word boule (G1012) is used.

Isaiah 14 (NASB)
27 For YHWH of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?​

The English word "planned" is translated from the Hebrew word ya'ats (H3289) meaning "purpose, devise, plan". To wit, this is the same root as that above, in Psalm 33:10-11.

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX), the Greek word be-bouleutai (G1011) is used. To wit, this comes from the same root as that above.

Daniel 4 (NASB)
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'​

The English word "will" is translated from the Hebrew word tsebah (H6634), and is a verb meaning "to desire, to be pleased, to will".

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX), the Greek word thelema (G2307) is used. This is the same Greek word that is used in John 6:39-40.


CONCLUSION: The khafets ("desire, pleasure") of YHWH-God in John 6:39-40 is unrelated to the atsa ("counsel, advice, purpose"), ya'ats ("purpose, devise, plan"), and tsebah ("desire, pleasure, to will") of the three passages quoted in support of Calvinist doctrine.

Therefore, no doctrinal conclusions can be drawn from these comparisons, which are extraneous. The apparent relevance of these passages is an illusion, an artifact of English translation. But doctrinal details cannot rest on the flimsy foundation of mere English translation. For such matters, you must delve back into the original languages.


CONCESSION: tsebah in Daniel 4:35 does seem similar in meaning to the words used in John 6:39-40. And the Greek words are identical. It is likely that Daniel 4:35 is relevant to John 6:39-40.