" Drawing "

Hey Allen, that's my Calvinism!

 

To the OP:

How bout we take the Bible as it stands, for a change?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Was he lifted up?

Are all men drawn then?

The answer for those that believe the Word as it stands would be an obvious yes.

 

I have a question to Calvinists regarding the drawing of God. If a person is saved at the age 75, was God drawing them for 75 years or just at the point of savation?

If God was drawing them for 75 years, then they must have resisted for those years. Yet, the "I" in TULIP is "irresistable grace". Isn't this proof of free will?

If God did not draw them until the moment of salvation, why would He let the person live for 75 years without Him?

 

The fact that you plucked a few scriptures, while ignoring dozens of others indicates that you don't know the subject.

In your view, God is not really electing. He's merely reporting.

Dan V.

 

1. Whatever God does, He does it for the praise of the glory of His grace.

2. Amy, you would have to ask God why he allowed an elect sinner to live that long before drawing him earlier.

 

So you are saying that God does allow a sinner to go many years before He draws Him?

I can look back in my own life and see God drawing me even when I was a child. One of the reasons I am so confident in saying this is because I did not grow up in a Christian home. My parents never went to church, never read the Bible, never talked about God. He just wasn't in our house, period. Yet, I have always felt drawn to God. I was 22 years old before I was saved, but it's clear to me that God was working in my life all those years.
One odd thing that happened when I was 7 years old is my mother walked in one day and gave me a little NT Bible which I still have. I loved that little Bible even though I couldn't understand it. Once grown up, I asked her why she gave it to me and she said she didn't know. (goose bumps! )
God is so good.

 

1. The apostle Paul is a great example. In fact, Paul imprisoned and killed saints of God before that life-changing encounter in Acts 9 (Acts 26:10).

2. Plus, experience informs us of that. Even murderers and rapists have come to the Lord.

3. A wonderful testimony, but not everyone has one like yours. :thumbs:

 

Leave it up to a calv to reject the Bible as it stands!

1) [Personal attack removed]

2) Even if "men" wasn't in there, all would still work, for all means all, even without your circular reasoning.

[/quote]

Was Christ's atonement not for all? Was it only for the elect?

 

My point was that God draws His elect, but they may not submit to Him for many, many years. Like Paul and like me.
Doesn't this show that we can resist God's grace? In fact we do resist. Some stop resisting and accept God's offer of salvation, but some continue to resist until it's too late. Doesn't this show the will is free to accept or reject? Because if God's grace is irresistable, then we would respond immediately to His drawing, not years later.

 

No, the elect will respond before they die. They may resist... and even resist their entire life and have a death bed confession or conversion. The elect will come however. Jesus said so. All that the Father gives me will come.......

Bro. Williams. I don't think you should call someone a Liar. I think its against the rules... and very un Christian like. Do you have the originals Bro. Williams?

 

Here is the difference Rb, I don't claim to have the originals or know what they say!

If someones says "the originals say", then they are lying, so I call them a liar, for none of us have seen or know what the "originals" say. Let me put this simple for you, if someone lies, what does that make them? Think about it for a second, is it coming to you? That's right, a liar.

It may be against BB rules, but it ain't against the Lords. I don't see stating the truth as a crime, but men love darkness rather than light, so I probably will be called to fault. Oh well.

Romans 3:4

 

We have the copies of the originals that are pretty accurate wouldn't you agree? But oh well....... yeah you might be called on it.

 

I would go as far as to say I have a perfect Bible, yes.

I have been called on things before, I try to take what I give.

 

That was my point. That the elect will come, eventually. But since they resist God's grace for so long, maybe even their whole life, then God's grace can be resisted, at least to a point. So to claim "irresistable grace" in the TULIP is not entirely correct.

Or maybe I'm just being too picky! :laugh:

 

I have a perfect Bible too. The NASB. :thumbs:

 

I love that translation. I think my favorite is the ESV. But then again, I study at least five different translations and versions. If someone thinks they have a translation or version (as the case with the KJV)... that is without error... then in my opinion that is error in iteself. Any time you have a translation, you have interpretation. When you have a translation of a translation, then you have two interpretations to deal with. Any time you have interpretation, there is a possibility of error. Just look at the difference between the mechanics of salvation between reformed and non reformed. Depending upon who does the editing... and thier theology... would determine what "truth" they held to. Such as it is with the KJV... or any other VERSION.... like my favorite, the ESV.

Amy, grace is absolutely resistable, until the Holy Spirit breaks a person's heart. When that happens, they will believe, they will repent... they could do no other.

Irrestible grace simply says that all that the Father gives Him, will eventually come.

 

Gotcha.
I haven't used the ESV, but I've used the NKJV, NLT, NIV (don't like), Amplified and NASB. I've heard a lot of good things about the ESV. I'm just hung up on the NASB right now. :thumbs:

 

The exact same word Elko (G1670) used in John 6:44, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him", is next used in John 12:32, "And I... will draw all men unto me".

Therefore, if such a "draw" (Elko, G1670) is irresistable, then all men have been irresistably drawn to YHWH-God through Jesus Christ for the past 2000 years.

(I haven't worked through all the posts yet, sorry if this is a repeat.)


PS: The words "Fishers of Men" and "fishing" with "nets" are metaphors for Evangelism. (Recall, Christians are "fishes".)

Thus, this is the powerful message of John!! For, this same root is next used in John 18:10, "Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it". Then it is used in John 21:6-11, "and now they were not able to draw it [the net] for the multitude of fishes... Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes..."

In other words, this is a clear and unambiguous statement that Christian Evangelism is to be done by "casting and drawing nets" (=Preaching the Word), and not by drawing and swinging swords (=violence and Crusades).

 

May I add:

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is drawn nigh: repent ye, and believe the gospel.'
Mark 1:14-15​

Incidentally, notice that it truly is YHWH-God who does the "heavy lifting" and the "initiating". For, it is YHWH-God who first "draws nigh" (v. 15) with his Reich (=Kingdom).

YHWH's Reich draws nigh... and then mortal men are drawn and, thereby, have some chance of "repenting & Believing". ALL salvation is, ultimately, 100.00% the work of God, by His Grace, for which all laudings be unto Him. Without God "calling to us", we would be hopelessly lost without any kind of "beacon signal" to lock onto.

Yet, again:

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Luke 12:32​