" Drawing "

[ReformedBaptist]

EDITTD IN >>> But at the same time I like what Spurgeon said about us entering Heaven's door. Walking in above the door it reads: "Whosoever will" but on the other side it reads : "Elect from the foundation of the World". PRAISE GOD!!

Hey Allen, that's my Calvinism!

 

[Bro. Williams]

To the OP:

How bout we take the Bible as it stands, for a change?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Was he lifted up?

Are all men drawn then?

The answer for those that believe the Word as it stands would be an obvious yes.

 

[Rippon]

BW : One has to compare Scripture with Scripture . In the 6th chapter of John drawing is in view . Verses 37,44, and 65 deal with it specifically .

Make sure your KJV lenses don't get in the way of your favorite interpretations . The equivalent of "men" isn't in the original of John 12:32 . He will draw all to Himself . All of whom ? Of all those he has given me ( Jesus said ) according to John 6:39 .

All are not drawn to Christ , only some . One can't come unless they are drawn . Those are the ones that the Father has given Jesus . They are drawn to a final conclusion which Romans 8:29-31 speaks about .

Were those suffering in Hell long before Jesus was born drawn to Him ? Of course not . John 12:32 does not mean everyone who has and shall live on earth . It is referring to His elect ones . Those and those only are the ones who shall be drawn .

If all are drawn then all are saved . Now that's not true because you do not believe in Universalism , do you ?

In 2 Corinthians 5:19 it says ( in my NLTse ) For God was in Christ , reconciling the world to himself , no longer counting people's sins against them ...

Yet has everyone had their sins counted ( or imputed ) to Christ , instead of toward themselves ? Of course not . Christ died for some people . Those people are known by various names in the Bible . Some designations are the elect , the sheep , the Church , the Body , the Bride , and on and on and on . He came specifically to save them . He did not come to save those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life .

 

[Amy.G]

I have a question to Calvinists regarding the drawing of God. If a person is saved at the age 75, was God drawing them for 75 years or just at the point of savation?

If God was drawing them for 75 years, then they must have resisted for those years. Yet, the "I" in TULIP is "irresistable grace". Isn't this proof of free will?

If God did not draw them until the moment of salvation, why would He let the person live for 75 years without Him?

 

[Dan V.]

9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

who are chosen
2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Every man has been enlightened, God elects on the basis of Foreknowledge of those He see in time believing. End of Discussion John and Jacob are both wrong.

The fact that you plucked a few scriptures, while ignoring dozens of others indicates that you don't know the subject.

In your view, God is not really electing. He's merely reporting.

Dan V.

 

[TCGreek]

I have a question to Calvinists regarding the drawing of God. If a person is saved at the age 75, was God drawing them for 75 years or just at the point of savation?

If God was drawing them for 75 years, then they must have resisted for those years. Yet, the "I" in TULIP is "irresistable grace". Isn't this proof of free will?

If God did not draw them until the moment of salvation, why would He let the person live for 75 years without Him?

1. Whatever God does, He does it for the praise of the glory of His grace.

2. Amy, you would have to ask God why he allowed an elect sinner to live that long before drawing him earlier.

 

[Amy.G]

1. Whatever God does, He does it for the praise of the glory of His grace.

2. Amy, you would have to ask God why he allowed an elect sinner to live that long before drawing him earlier.

So you are saying that God does allow a sinner to go many years before He draws Him?

I can look back in my own life and see God drawing me even when I was a child. One of the reasons I am so confident in saying this is because I did not grow up in a Christian home. My parents never went to church, never read the Bible, never talked about God. He just wasn't in our house, period. Yet, I have always felt drawn to God. I was 22 years old before I was saved, but it's clear to me that God was working in my life all those years.
One odd thing that happened when I was 7 years old is my mother walked in one day and gave me a little NT Bible which I still have. I loved that little Bible even though I couldn't understand it. Once grown up, I asked her why she gave it to me and she said she didn't know. (goose bumps! )
God is so good.

 

[TCGreek]

So you are saying that God does allow a sinner to go many years before He draws Him?

1. The apostle Paul is a great example. In fact, Paul imprisoned and killed saints of God before that life-changing encounter in Acts 9 (Acts 26:10).

2. Plus, experience informs us of that. Even murderers and rapists have come to the Lord.

I can look back in my own life and see God drawing me even when I was a child. One of the reasons I am so confident in saying this is because I did not grow up in a Christian home. My parents never went to church, never read the Bible, never talked about God. He just wasn't in our house, period. Yet, I have always felt drawn to God. I was 22 years old before I was saved, but it's clear to me that God was working in my life all those years.
One odd thing that happened when I was 7 years old is my mother walked in one day and gave me a little NT Bible which I still have. I loved that little Bible even though I couldn't understand it. Once grown up, I asked her why she gave it to me and she said she didn't know. (goose bumps! )
God is so good.

3. A wonderful testimony, but not everyone has one like yours. :thumbs:

 

[Bro. Williams]

BW : One has to compare Scripture with Scripture . In the 6th chapter of John drawing is in view . Verses 37,44, and 65 deal with it specifically .

Make sure your KJV lenses don't get in the way of your favorite interpretations . The equivalent of "men" isn't in the original of John 12:32 . He will draw all to Himself . All of whom ? Of all those he has given me ( Jesus said ) according to John 6:39 .

Leave it up to a calv to reject the Bible as it stands!

1) [Personal attack removed]

2) Even if "men" wasn't in there, all would still work, for all means all, even without your circular reasoning.

Yet has everyone had their sins counted ( or imputed ) to Christ , instead of toward themselves ? Of course not . Christ died for some people . Those people are known by various names in the Bible . Some designations are the elect , the sheep , the Church , the Body , the Bride , and on and on and on . He came specifically to save them . He did not come to save those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life .

[/quote]

Was Christ's atonement not for all? Was it only for the elect?

 

[Amy.G]

1. The apostle Paul is a great example. In fact, Paul imprisoned and killed saints of God before that life-changing encounter in Acts 9 (Acts 26:10).

2. Plus, experience informs us of that. Even murderers and rapists have come to the Lord.



3. A wonderful testimony, but not everyone has one like yours. :thumbs:

My point was that God draws His elect, but they may not submit to Him for many, many years. Like Paul and like me.
Doesn't this show that we can resist God's grace? In fact we do resist. Some stop resisting and accept God's offer of salvation, but some continue to resist until it's too late. Doesn't this show the will is free to accept or reject? Because if God's grace is irresistable, then we would respond immediately to His drawing, not years later.

 

[reformedbeliever]

My point was that God draws His elect, but they may not submit to Him for many, many years. Like Paul and like me.
Doesn't this show that we can resist God's grace? In fact we do resist. Some stop resisting and accept God's offer of salvation, but some continue to resist until it's too late. Doesn't this show the will is free to accept or reject? Because if God's grace is irresistable, then we would respond immediately to His drawing, not years later.

No, the elect will respond before they die. They may resist... and even resist their entire life and have a death bed confession or conversion. The elect will come however. Jesus said so. All that the Father gives me will come.......

Bro. Williams. I don't think you should call someone a Liar. I think its against the rules... and very un Christian like. Do you have the originals Bro. Williams?

 

[Bro. Williams]

Bro. Williams. I don't think you should call someone a Liar. I think its against the rules... and very un Christian like. Do you have the originals Bro. Williams?

Here is the difference Rb, I don't claim to have the originals or know what they say!

If someones says "the originals say", then they are lying, so I call them a liar, for none of us have seen or know what the "originals" say. Let me put this simple for you, if someone lies, what does that make them? Think about it for a second, is it coming to you? That's right, a liar.

It may be against BB rules, but it ain't against the Lords. I don't see stating the truth as a crime, but men love darkness rather than light, so I probably will be called to fault. Oh well.

Romans 3:4

 

[reformedbeliever]

Here is the difference Rb, I don't claim to have the originals or know what they say!

If someones says "the originals say", then they are lying, so I call them a liar, for none of us have seen or know what the "originals" say. Let me put this simple for you, if someone lies, what does that make them? Think about it for a second, is it coming to you? That's right, a liar.

It may be against BB rules, but it ain't against the Lords. I don't see stating the truth as a crime, but men love darkness rather than light, so I probably will be called to fault. Oh well.

Romans 3:4

We have the copies of the originals that are pretty accurate wouldn't you agree? But oh well....... yeah you might be called on it.

 

[Bro. Williams]

I would go as far as to say I have a perfect Bible, yes.

I have been called on things before, I try to take what I give.

 

[Amy.G]

No, the elect will respond before they die. They may resist... and even resist their entire life and have a death bed confession or conversion. The elect will come however. Jesus said so. All that the Father gives me will come.......

That was my point. That the elect will come, eventually. But since they resist God's grace for so long, maybe even their whole life, then God's grace can be resisted, at least to a point. So to claim "irresistable grace" in the TULIP is not entirely correct.

Or maybe I'm just being too picky! :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

I would go as far as to say I have a perfect Bible, yes.

I have been called on things before, I try to take what I give.

I have a perfect Bible too. The NASB. :thumbs:

 

[reformedbeliever]

I have a perfect Bible too. The NASB. :thumbs:

I love that translation. I think my favorite is the ESV. But then again, I study at least five different translations and versions. If someone thinks they have a translation or version (as the case with the KJV)... that is without error... then in my opinion that is error in iteself. Any time you have a translation, you have interpretation. When you have a translation of a translation, then you have two interpretations to deal with. Any time you have interpretation, there is a possibility of error. Just look at the difference between the mechanics of salvation between reformed and non reformed. Depending upon who does the editing... and thier theology... would determine what "truth" they held to. Such as it is with the KJV... or any other VERSION.... like my favorite, the ESV.

Amy, grace is absolutely resistable, until the Holy Spirit breaks a person's heart. When that happens, they will believe, they will repent... they could do no other.

Irrestible grace simply says that all that the Father gives Him, will eventually come.

 

[Amy.G]

I love that translation. I think my favorite is the ESV. But then again, I study at least five different translations and versions. If someone thinks they have a translation or version (as the case with the KJV)... that is without error... then in my opinion that is error in iteself. Any time you have a translation, you have interpretation. When you have a translation of a translation, then you have two interpretations to deal with. Any time you have interpretation, there is a possibility of error. Just look at the difference between the mechanics of salvation between reformed and non reformed. Depending upon who does the editing... and thier theology... would determine what "truth" they held to. Such as it is with the KJV... or any other VERSION.... like my favorite, the ESV.

Amy, grace is absolutely resistable, until the Holy Spirit breaks a person's heart. When that happens, they will believe, they will repent... they could do no other.

Irrestible grace simply says that all that the Father gives Him, will eventually come.

Gotcha.
I haven't used the ESV, but I've used the NKJV, NLT, NIV (don't like), Amplified and NASB. I've heard a lot of good things about the ESV. I'm just hung up on the NASB right now. :thumbs:

 

[Bismarck]

I know this one must have been done a time or two , but here goes again .

In John 6:44 Jesus said : No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him , and I will raise him up at the last day .

The Lord had already said in verse 37 that all that the Father gives Me will come to Me ... And verse 65 deals with the same .

Isn't verse 44 rather clear ? Draws . The Greek word is elkw . It's found in other verses such as John 18:10 : Then Simon Peter , having a sword , drew it ...

John 21:11 : Simon Peter went up and dragged up and dragged the net ...

Acts 21:30 : ... and dragged him out of the temple ...

Acts 16:19 : ... they seized Paul and silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities .

James 2:6 : Don't the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts ?

Kittel's Dictionary of the New Testament defines elkw as to " draw by an irrestible force ." There is no wooing going on . I seem to remember R.C. Sproul talking about this in one of his books . In one of his classes with his mentor John Gerstner this very thing came up . God's drawing is never partial , it is complete .

The exact same word Elko (G1670) used in John 6:44, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him", is next used in John 12:32, "And I... will draw all men unto me".

Therefore, if such a "draw" (Elko, G1670) is irresistable, then all men have been irresistably drawn to YHWH-God through Jesus Christ for the past 2000 years.

(I haven't worked through all the posts yet, sorry if this is a repeat.)


PS: The words "Fishers of Men" and "fishing" with "nets" are metaphors for Evangelism. (Recall, Christians are "fishes".)

Thus, this is the powerful message of John!! For, this same root is next used in John 18:10, "Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it". Then it is used in John 21:6-11, "and now they were not able to draw it [the net] for the multitude of fishes... Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes..."

In other words, this is a clear and unambiguous statement that Christian Evangelism is to be done by "casting and drawing nets" (=Preaching the Word), and not by drawing and swinging swords (=violence and Crusades).

 

[Bismarck]

Thank you, skypair. It gets bizarre. For instance, when npetreley makes mash out of Jesus' answer to the people "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." npetreley tried to make out that this was God's work to do. How bizarre is that! God is supposed to believe in Himself because that is HIS work?????

Jesus' response was to answer the question in ther verse preceeding it: "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus' response makes it clear that they are simply being asked to believe in Him. That is the 'work' God requires.....

May I add:

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is drawn nigh: repent ye, and believe the gospel.'
Mark 1:14-15​

Incidentally, notice that it truly is YHWH-God who does the "heavy lifting" and the "initiating". For, it is YHWH-God who first "draws nigh" (v. 15) with his Reich (=Kingdom).

YHWH's Reich draws nigh... and then mortal men are drawn and, thereby, have some chance of "repenting & Believing". ALL salvation is, ultimately, 100.00% the work of God, by His Grace, for which all laudings be unto Him. Without God "calling to us", we would be hopelessly lost without any kind of "beacon signal" to lock onto.

Yet, again:

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Luke 12:32​