" Drawing "

[Allan]

Another problem found with John 6 issue of the 'Father drawing' is this is specific to Israel here.
Why? Becuase Israel (The Fathers Wife and chosen People unto Himself) was under a curse for disobedience and rebellion therefore not all of Israel (in the National sense) was 'permitted' to come to Christ. This is why the term 'draw' is in the subjunctive mood and is why God was not 'drawing' them all.
So you can't apply this drawing of the Father beyond it's context. We might see principle but we should not found primary doctrines upon secondary principles.

In fact we see Jesus declares it is no longer the Father who will be drawing peole anymore but Himself when He declared "and I, if I be lifted up I will draw all [men] unto myself."
Why? Because the promise exended beyond the Jewish Nation (Gods people and wife, whom God set aside for time that Christ might make for Himself a Bride) to those outside its ethnic and religous boundries (Gentile followers of Jewish beliefs). Christ's Bride made up of the multitude of mankind. Granted it was founded and established by Jewish people whom God gave His son but they are not the whole of those whom Christ has drawn to Himself.

How will Christ draw all men unto unto Himself? First is by the same turths God gave from the beginning Romans 1 and 2 - Nature and the Conscience. And if a person will believe the natural things which God reveals to them by the Holy Spirit. Then by that same Spirit God will reveal more through His Spirit who is in the world and who's ministry it is(or part of His ministry) to convict the WORLD of Sin, His Righteousness, and Judgment to Come. The Trinity working is unison and in accordance to God predetermined plan.

However, I will make this proclaimation about 'irresistable' that it isn't what is implied in the texts regarding Gods (whether the Father or Christ/Holy Spirit).
And it is found in 2 Thes.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now granted this is about those who will follow the Anti-Christ but there is no better text in scripture to establish my point. I mean these followers of his are already known to be destined for an eternal hell.

First - If salvation was purchased for a 'limited' number only then no man who was not regarded as one of that number can be said to be even 'potentially' saved. The Gospel call is not regard as anything before God for that individual regarding salvation for them.

Second - If God compels or irresistably draws men then no man can reject the truth God reveals. If a person knows saving truth it is only because God has revealed it since the natural man can not know spiritual things.

Third - If God chose some (the Redeemed) NOT by any foreknowledge of choice then all men whom Christ will not die for are already condemned regardless of unbelief and that belief or unbelief has no significance with regard to Gods choosing.

Now in verse 10 we find some interesting things.
1. - The scrpture states the anti-christ will use all types of deception on those who [are] perishing or [will] perish. NEXT the scripture says WHY they are destined to perish. Does it stat they perish because God did not chose them regardless of belief? No, but here is what it begins with - BECAUSE or DUE TO THIS - here is the reason they will perish, be damned, or condemned to God's Judgment - wrath and Hell.
THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH...
The term 'received' is not in the Passive voice (meaning God does this to or in them) but is in the Middle Deponent which is almost always used in the Active voice (meaning the subject such as 'they' is the doer). It was 'THEIR' choice NOT to receive. You might ask me where I saw a choice. First in the fact 'they' did not 'receive' or (take to themselves - to learn, like John 6:45). and Second is found in #2.

2. ...THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. Now here is a very strange thing to say if Christ did not die for them. If God did not choose them they CAN NOT even be considered 'potentially' or remotely 'hypothetically' saved. And yet the text reads
"in them that perish BECAUSE they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved". Apparently receiving truth is connected to salvation. Many Calvinists would agree as do I. But were we differ is in the FACT scripture states THEY PERISH BECAUSE...They did not receive the love of the Truth...that could save them.

3. If Christ did not die for them then this verse is a farce, and a false declaration by God Himself. He does not state they perish because they were not chosen regardless of belief or that their damnation has nothing to do with their choice, but that they perish becuase they WOULD NOT not COULD NOT beleive the truth and that THEY (who to some were pre-ordained to perish and have no hope of salvation) might BE SAVED. and if that isn't enough God goes after this truth again in the next verse

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

'For this cause' - what cause or for what reason (not believing the truth that could save them) ... God shall send them a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. They chose the Lie over the Truth and for THEIR CHOOSING God sends forth His Judgment against them for their rejection of truth or The Truth (Jesus).
Now listen to how God closes this:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

So far we have these people rejecting the truth (Christ Jesus) that could save them. Then God sends forth a Judgment of delusion (blindness) AFTER rejecting the truth that they will continue believing the lie. BUT NOW...
NOW, we see something interesting regarding their condemnation or damnation. For God states He sent that delusion (blindness) after their rejection of the Truth that they might be saved, SO THEY MIGHT ALL BE DAMNED... Notice please their damnation was not sealed until they rejected the truth that COULD HAVE SAVED THEM. If you don't believe me just read the rest of the sentence. God DAMNS (condemns to judgment) those who rejected and did not believe the Truth (Jesus), but had pleasure in their unrighteousness. Notice they are condemned by their choice.

They were not hated and condemned by God who passed over them and did not provide a means of salvation for them like some declare. According to these passages of scripture it was their choice that determined in the eyes of God their relationship with Him - whether in unity and Love or seperated and under condemnation. Thus Gods chosing us unto Himself IS or does have some basis in us believing His Truth.

And for those who might still try to state, the reason they did not beleive is because they were not 'irresistably draw'. Then I ask you:
If a person has the potential of being saved must they not be draw by God?
And if God draws them how can they harden their hearts, or reject His truth THAT COULD SAVE THEM since salvation is only possible for limited?
And lastly how can the scriptures declare of the followers of the anti-christ, "that they might be saved"?

Ok, now you can tear it to peices :thumbs: :laugh:

 

[Allan]

How can those believe who have never heard Allan? This is the problem with synergism. There are those who have never heard the Gospel who are long dead, and many more who will die without hearing the Gospel. Kinda blows your synergy.

No problem at brother. Romans 1 and 2.

They have the truths of God in Nature and our conscience which declare God, the Godhead, His glory, and Power. But like Jesus told Ol' Nick in John 3. If you will not believe the worldly things, how shall you believe those heavenly things I can share.

I think we discussed this in another thread MONTHS ago.
We can see this in Missionaries stories of going out to remote places and find some people who were not content with what their people or tribe believe. The know and see something different. Yes, God is at work in them I agree but using what? Nature and their own conscience (even as convoluted as it it). When they believe these things God will make a way for them to know the fulness of the Truth. Which goes back to Jesus and Nick. Nick had questions but he would not even believe the Natural truths (in his case even seeing Jesus do things that no priest nor prophet before has ever done in scale or magnitude.)

 

[reformedbeliever]

No problem at brother. Romans 1 and 2.

They have the truths of God in Nature and our conscience which declare God, the Godhead, His glory, and Power. But like Jesus told Ol' Nick in John 3. If you will not believe the worldly things, how shall you believe those heavenly things I can share.

I think we discussed this in another thread MONTHS ago.
We can see this in Missionaries stories of going out to remote places and find some people who were not content with what their people or tribe believe. The know and see something different. Yes, God is at work in them I agree but using what? Nature and their own conscience (even as convoluted as it it). When they believe these things God will make a way for them to know the fulness of the Truth. Which goes back to Jesus and Nick. Nick had questions but he would not even believe the Natural truths (in his case even seeing Jesus do things that no priest nor prophet before has ever done in scale or magnitude.)

I don't buy it Allan. There are many who had faith in their belief who died without being given more. There are many who never hear the Gospel. I know you are not saying that there is another way to be saved. I was simply pointing out that not all get to hear the Gospel... hense prevenient grace or synergy can not be true.

 

[Allan]

This kinda goes against Ephesians 2 doesn't it Allan? Are you reading into this your system of belief? When we test Scripture with Scripture it seems so. We are not born of our will but God.

Not in the slightest degree.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith.
Faith is not a work but Jesus was using a play on their words as I showed.

They wanted to be known by God for their righteous deeds but Jesus was showing them they are not right in their assuption of what God wanted of them. It wasn't their deeds for He (and we) know their deeds at their best was filthy, but it was their belief/faith in HIS work/deeds that would stand up to the scrutiny of Gods examination.

Rom 4:4-6 states that faith is not a work and yet faith is an action.

 

[Allan]

I don't buy it Allan. There are many who had faith in their belief who died without being given more. There are many who never hear the Gospel. I know you are not saying that there is another way to be saved. I was simply pointing out that not all get to hear the Gospel... hense prevenient grace or synergy can not be true.

Really, name one. And then tell me how they believed and were willing to know more.

Of course there are many who never heard the Gospel but they are without excuse because the law in their own hearts (or conscience) and in Nature condemn them. How can it condemn them unless they choose to go against that truth God has revealed

Hence it can

 

[reformedbeliever]

Not in the slightest degree.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith.
Faith is not a work but Jesus was using a play on their words as I showed.

They wanted to be known by God for their righteous deeds but Jesus was showing them they are not right in their assuption of what God wanted of them. It wasn't their deeds for He (and we) know their deeds at their best was filthy, but it was their belief/faith in HIS work/deeds that would stand up to the scrutiny of Gods examination.

Rom 4:4-6 states that faith is not a work and yet faith is an action.

And faith is given to us by God. Belief/faith is an exercise of the will, don't you agree? We are not born again by our will or any act of the flesh. I don't need to give the biblical reference.... you know it well.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Really, name one. And then tell me how they believed and were willing to know more.

Of course there are many who never heard the Gospel but they are without excuse because the law in their own hearts (or conscience) and in Nature condemn them. How can it condemn them unless they choose to go against that truth God has revealed

Hence it can

You want their names? Addresses and phone numbers? Many don't even have phones. They are the many tribes of Native Americans living in Oklahoma and many other places who have a polytheistic belief.

Of course there are many who never heard the Gospel and they are without excuse.... we agree on that. That simply points out the fact that synergism can not be true. Not all hear the Gospel. They are lost. The Gospel is not given to everyone.

 

[Allan]

Is belief an exercise of the will?

When in verb form Belief/Faith is always in the Active tense and never in the Passive tense.

 

[reformedbeliever]

When in verb form Belief/Faith is always in the Active tense and never in the Passive tense.

So it would be an exercise of the will. We do not exercise our will until we are born again.

 

[Allan]

And faith is given to us by God. Belief/faith is an exercise of the will, don't you agree? We are not born again by our will or any act of the flesh. I don't need to give the biblical reference.... you know it well.

We disagree on the meaning of born-again.

I hold born-again to mean those who have believe due to Gods grace are saved.
Born-again means we are Gods child (Sons), Justified, Sanctified, Propitiated and set in a right relatation with God. None of these things can be attributed to a beleiver since they are ALL (each and every one ) are obtained by faith.

As says the scripture:
As many as received Him to them He gave the right to be called the Sons of God, even to those who believe on His name (authority).

He gave the right to be His Child (Son) to as many as received him, to them who beleive His authority.

 

[Allan]

So it would be an exercise of the will. We do not exercise our will until we are born again.

That can not be established from scripture. As I stated 2 Thes is a good passage, Proverbs 2 shows them being exhorted to do it as well as well as many other places.

 

[reformedbeliever]

As says the scripture:
As many as received Him to them He gave the right to be called the Sons of God, even to those who believe on His name (authority).

He gave the right to be His Child (Son) to as many as received him, to them who beleive His authority.

Who were born, not of flesh, or blood, or the will of man, but of God.

I rest my case.

 

[Allan]

Of course there are many who never heard the Gospel and they are without excuse.... we agree on that. That simply points out the fact that synergism can not be true. Not all hear the Gospel. They are lost. The Gospel is not given to everyone.

How do you figure?
Better question - Why are they without excuse?
Answer: because they know the truth and do not choose it.
If they will not believe the natural truths (of Nature and the heart or conscience) revealed to them how shall they believe the spiritual things? Back to Jesus and Nick.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How do you figure?
Better question - Why are they without excuse?
Answer: because they know the truth and do not choose it.
If they will not believe the natural truths (of Nature and the heart or conscience) revealed to them how shall they believe the spiritual things? Back to Jesus and Nick.

They know there is a God....... they don't know about Christ. Even while they know there is a God....... they attribute all the works of wonders in nature to gods. They make up their own.... instead of believing the true God.

 

[Allan]

Who were born, not of flesh, or blood, or the will of man, but of God.

I rest my case.

Of course we were, and that is where I rest my case.

We are not saved by works of righeousness, linage, nor shear determination but God saved us. IOW- He did all the work for Righteousness, He was of proper birth and it was His determination to over come on our behalf (see His life, the Garden of Gethsemine, the Cross, and the Resurrection) we just simply had to believe. (Rom 4:4-6, John 3, ext...)

 

[reformedbeliever]

Allan, you need to come out and minister the Gospel to the Indians a while! :godisgood:

 

[lbaker]

So it would be an exercise of the will. We do not exercise our will until we are born again.

Of course we do, about all kinds of things. Making rational decisions involves an excercise of the will. When we decide what groceries to buy, or what car to drive, or where to live, those are all examples of excercising the will. So, why would we be unable to make a rational decision, excercise our will, about spiritual matters such as coming to a belief in Christ?

Les

 

[reformedbeliever]

Of course we were, and that is where I rest my case.

We are not saved by works of righeousness, linage, nor shear determination but God saved us. IOW- He did all the work for Righteousness, He was of proper birth and it was His determination to over come on our behalf (see His life, the Garden of Gethsemine, the Cross, and the Resurrection) we just simply had to believe. (Rom 4:4-6, John 3, ext...)

An act of the will.

 

[Allan]

They know there is a God....... they don't know about Christ. Even while they know there is a God....... they attribute all the works of wonders in nature to gods. They make up their own.... instead of believing the true God.

Exactly by denying what nature so clearly shows:
Rom 1:18-32
They even KNOW the glory, Godhead, and Judgment of God to come.
That is some pretty thorough truth, agreed?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Of course we do, about all kinds of things. Making rational decisions involves an excercise of the will. When we decide what groceries to buy, or what car to drive, or where to live, those are all examples of excercising the will. So, why would we be unable to make a rational decision, excercise our will, about spiritual matters such as coming to a belief in Christ?

Les

Because we are not born again of our will but God's. See John 1:13.
Have you read this thread?