" Drawing "

[Allan]

Allan, you need to come out and minister the Gospel to the Indians a while! :godisgood:

I live in the Dakota's (Sioux Nation) and did live in Florida (Seminoles).
So I am and did minister to the Indians as God allows.

 

[lbaker]

Have you read this thread?

Yes, of course.

 

[Allan]

An act of the will.

You know I believe in the Responsiblity of Will.

When God reveals truth we are responsible for what we do with it.
Who am I to say that God in revealing truth to against the lie we have held, does not in that moment of revealed truth enable me to respond in such a manner as to beleive or reject?

 

[reformedbeliever]

I live in the Dakota's (Sioux Nation) and did live in Florida (Seminoles).
So I am and did minister to the Indians as God allows.

And how many of them told you about their long dead ancestors who knew about Christ? I have had a few... one who showed me a prayer feather (golden eagle) which had three dots on it. He said it symbolized the triune God. After a little more questioning... it was obvious he didn't really understand... and that it was another god... such as mother earth et.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I live in the Dakota's (Sioux Nation) and did live in Florida (Seminoles).
So I am and did minister to the Indians as God allows.

Triple post!

 

[reformedbeliever]

I live in the Dakota's (Sioux Nation) and did live in Florida (Seminoles).
So I am and did minister to the Indians as God allows.

And again. This bb is really messed up!

 

[reformedbeliever]

You know I believe in the Responsiblity of Will.

When God reveals truth we are responsible for what we do with it.
Who am I to say that God in revealing truth to against the lie we have held, does not in that moment of revealed truth enable me to respond in such a manner as to beleive or reject?

Well Allan, that is what I've been trying to tell you. Being born again is being enabled to exercise our wills. Once we are born again of God, we will exercise our wills in the affirmative. All that the Father gives me...............

 

[Allan]

And how many of them told you about their long dead ancestors who knew about Christ? I have had a few... one who showed me a prayer feather (golden eagle) which had three dots on it. He said it symbolized the triune God. After a little more questioning... it was obvious he didn't really understand... and that it was another god... such as mother earth et.

I can personally tell you of a couple of different stories

I know where one specifically (Jim Redfox - out here in lower Bruel) was listening to the stories as boy/young man and that they didn't seem to match up with what he witness around him. He wondered how the 'white man' could be so cruel to his people but still declare the same types of values they held and hated the same things they did. He began to distance himself inside from that stuff but still had to be apart of his peoples obserances. One day guess who he met on a road with a flat tire. A preacher who was late for his preaching appointment due to his flat tire. Jim figured he'd help the guy since he didn't have anything better to do and while he fixed the tire God gave that the truth and was saved with tire iron in one hand and a fist full of dirt in the other as he prayed.

No one get saved without Christ, but no one who will believe Gods truths in Nature and in conscience is denied that saving truth of Christ either. At least I can find that in scripture anywhere.

 

[lbaker]

Well Allan, that is what I've been trying to tell you. Being born again is being enabled to exercise our wills. Once we are born again of God, we will exercise our wills in the affirmative. All that the Father gives me...............

The point I was trying to make is why should we assume that God gives us the ability to make decisions, exercise our wills, in all kinds of mundane things like groceries, cars, books, etc. etc. but gives us a blind spot where spiritual matters are concerned? Doesn't make sense.

Les

 

[Allan]

Well Allan, that is what I've been trying to tell you. Being born again is being enabled to exercise our wills. Once we are born again of God, we will exercise our wills in the affirmative. All that the Father gives me...............

I don't agree because scripture tells me differently regarding what born-again means. :laugh:

As I stated, If we understand anything about God, His Glory, His power, His Godhead, His Son who can save us, and His Judgment to come - then by your definition they are born-again but many of those born-again will be in hell.
Again Rom 1 and 2 Thes 2 just for examples. They KNOW spiritual truth and in detail but reject it. They could not have known any of those things since they are spiritually discerned but they reject God, so how could they know them unless God revealed those spiritual truths to them?

All the Father gives me - regards the Jews in that setting though the same promise of a resurrection to those who beleive in Him is extended to the Gentiles, whom Christ Jesus will draw to Himself through the agency of the Holy Spirit convinicting the World of Sin, His Righteousness, and the Judgment to come.

 

[Allan]

And again. This bb is really messed up!

Yeah, I had to 'x' out three different times.

BTW - about this 'pick on Allan day'? :laugh: :laugh:

Please understand, that while on here brother, I try to bring understanding regarding mans resposibility and speak often about men. I in no way speak about this in the measure I do on here. You already know the other half of the story so I don't have to debate you or convience you of that. Just so you know. This is me debating a portion of scripture NOT how or specifically what I preach.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I don't agree because scripture tells me differently regarding what born-again means. :laugh:

As I stated, If we understand anything about God, His Glory, His power, His Godhead, His Son who can save us, and His Judgment to come - then by your definition they are born-again but many of those born-again will be in hell.
Again Rom 1 and 2 Thes 2 just for examples. They KNOW spiritual truth and in detail but reject it. They could not have known any of those things since they are spiritually discerned but they reject God, so how could they know them unless God revealed those spiritual truths to them?

All the Father gives me - regards the Jews in that setting though the same promise of a resurrection to those who beleive in Him is extended to the Gentiles, whom Christ Jesus will draw to Himself through the agency of the Holy Spirit convinicting the World of Sin, His Righteousness, and the Judgment to come.

I disagree. They know there is an Almighty God, but they do not know spiritually who He is. They make up gods in His place.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yeah, I had to 'x' out three different times.

BTW - about this 'pick on Allan day'? :laugh: :laugh:

Please understand, that while on here brother, I try to bring understanding regarding mans resposibility and speak often about men. I in no way speak about this in the measure I do on here. You already know the other half of the story so I don't have to debate you or convience you of that. Just so you know. This is me debating a portion of scripture NOT how or specifically what I preach.

I know that brother. You sharpen my iron. God has used you to give me insight into what I call contending with God for the souls of men. If God has chosen x amount of people to be saved, and all the rest will go to hell.... I'll fight Him for the rest. Thank you for that brother.

 

[Allan]

I disagree. They know there is an Almighty God, but they do not know spiritually who He is. They make up gods in His place.

True, they do. BUT they must FIRST reject Him. I am quite sure you have read Romans 1:18-32. But I encourage you to do it again and look at just how much they DO know and then reject. And as you are doing that and seeing them rejecting Him whom they know and His judgment to come (that is a pretty sound knowing in my opinion) also notice that scripture states after their rejection of Him, 'it is for THIS cause God gave them over' and see how many times that crops up.

God rejected them because they rejected Him. Both of those truth are pretty hard to get around.

EDITTD IN >>> But at the same time I like what Spurgeon said about us entering Heaven's door. Walking in above the door it reads: "Whosoever will" but on the other side it reads : "Elect from the foundation of the World". PRAISE GOD!!

I need to get off of here brother. I have been up since yesterday at 4 pm (worked the 10 pm to 6 am shift) and am dragging.

I have enjoyed our time, thank you. I makes me think and re-evalutate things especially when done in brotherly love. That is why I appreciate you.

May God richly bless you this day in His grace and Mercy as you walk in this Day God established long ago and all that will come in it.

 

[Allan]

I know that brother. You sharpen my iron. God has used you to give me insight into what I call contending with God for the souls of men. If God has chosen x amount of people to be saved, and all the rest will go to hell.... I'll fight Him for the rest. Thank you for that brother.

God and God alone be praised. In Him and for them - Amen!

 

[skypair]

I know this one must have been done a time or two , but here goes again .

In John 6:44 Jesus said : No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him , and I will raise him up at the last day .

The Lord had already said in verse 37 that all that the Father gives Me will come to Me ... And verse 65 deals with the same .

Isn't verse 44 rather clear ? Draws . The Greek word is elkw . It's found in other verses such as John 18:10 : Then Simon Peter , having a sword , drew it ...

John 21:11 : Simon Peter went up and dragged up and dragged the net ...

Acts 21:30 : ... and dragged him out of the temple ...

Acts 16:19 : ... they seized Paul and silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities .

James 2:6 : Don't the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts ?

Kittel's Dictionary of the New Testament defines elkw as to " draw by an irrestible force ." There is no wooing going on . I seem to remember R.C. Sproul talking about this in one of his books . In one of his classes with his mentor John Gerstner this very thing came up . God's drawing is never partial , it is complete .

Frist let me point out that you are declaring doctrine based upon the application of allegoical interpretation. This is NEVER allowed unless other scripture LITERALLY declares the same -- and there is none.

Those "drawn" do NOT always come. Most will "believe in vain" (1Cor 15:2) or be of "Them who draw back into perdition" (Heb 10:39).

Please refrain from teaching such obviously errant interpretations.

skypair

 

[skypair]

They asked what works they could do, and the answer was "The work of God is this..." In other words, there is no work we can do. It is the work of God, not the work of man. And that work (that God does) is to believe on the one He sent.

"What shall WE do that WE might work the works of God?" John 6:28

Here's the issue, npetrely -- you say NOTHING and Christ says BELIEVE.

"This is the work of God, that YOU believe on him whom he hath sent." Please do not make scripture say what it clearly doesn't say. It leads to errant theology and, in this case, errant sotierology as well.

skypair

 

[skypair]

No , GS . You did not answer the question . Where in the Bible is wooing mentioned with respect to the drawing of some by the Father to Jesus .

"Wooing" is NOT the issue. The connotation of "drawing" is the issue.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I made this point in a Bible study awhile back, that the word translated "draw" was the same word used for drawing the sword, drawing in the fishing net, etc. Sounds pretty "irresistable". I was told that in those verses (sword, net) that the word means "will come", but in the case of PEOPLE being drawn, it means "may come". It sounded like a very subjective explanation to me, but I know very little about Greek, so I'm certainly in no position to say for sure.

Words NEVER are defined apart from their context, belvedere.

Calvinism hopes to "snare" the unwitting in a trap of their own mind -- of not being able to see something any other way that the way they define a term. To do this, they will take physical instances -- one they love is "drawing water" -- and saying "Can you 'woo' water from a well?"

It's just so much mispplication and word games! There is but little application of the physical act of drawing to the spiritual act of drawing which Calvinists realize and use in their program of DISinformation!

skypair

 

[skypair]

So it would be an exercise of the will. We do not exercise our will until we are born again.

You, sir, have a perverse view of salvation. It is Calvinist "to the core" and that is why it is perverse.

We MUST believe. We MUST believe to the extent that we REPENT and RECEIVE faith -- else you "believe in vain!"

God's "monergistic work" then is to REGENERATE us of which the realization of gives us FAITH -- faith is based on "evidence" and "substance," Heb 11:1, and the indwelling Spirit IS that "evidence" and "substance."

Let me ask you, "When you were saved, did you receive something you didn't believe?" Be careful --- you can only receive what you believe, sir. There's no receiving in ignorance. That would be like saying the heathen are saved and don't know it.

skypair