Drink

[Skandelon]

Yet, Jesus partook in wine, created wine, and practiced a ceremony that included wine. Are you saying Jesus sinned?

Don't confuse this discussion with facts Ruiz! We are talking about what is a sin TODAY in AMERICA, not 2000 years ago in Jerusalem!

 

[agedman]

Exception noted

Huh? Are you saying my dad wasn't a believer because he took morphine?

Amy,

The "exception noted" is the constant typing of the phrase "except as prescribed by a doctor" that I just flat got tired of saying at the beginning of this thread.

 

[preachinjesus]

That would be so easy for you, wouldn't it.

Perhaps you would like to look at scriptures that "explicityly forbid" pedophilia, polygamy (polyamory), or even lesbianism.

The point being, the above are all sin against the example and nature of God in Christ. So is taking an intoxicant (exceptions noted).

No, I'm not looking for the "easy way out" on this issue. In fact I've done some healthy amount of reading on it. I'm not an "easy way out: kinda guy.

There are Scriptures for all of the above issues you listed.

Again, you're the one with the OP, so show us your points. Show us what specific Scriptures you're getting these ideas from.

My request is neither unusual nor is it overly burdensome. Just show us what you're thinking and what you're reading.

 

[Skandelon]

Amy,

The "exception noted" is the constant typing of the phrase "except as prescribed by a doctor" that I just flat got tired of saying at the beginning of this thread.

Any one know a doctor who wouldn't mind writing me a prescription, cuz I need another beer....or 2

 

[preachinjesus]

Does not the Scripture refer the believers as priests that our bodies are the temple?

Okay...that isn't what Paul is referencing. Also we aren't adopted into the Aaronic priesthood once we receive justification. The NT uses the idea of priesthood of all believers to note that unlike OT times, New Covenant believers have access to God through the supplication of Christ on our behalf. We have no need for a human intermediary between us and God.

Besides, the context of Paul's discussion of our bodies as the Temple of the Holy Spirit has to do with how we treat our bodies "s3xually" not about how we conduct our lives health wise. Look up the context in 1 Corinthians 6:12-20. Paul is speaking explicitly about immorality with other people who we're not married to then goes on (1 Cor 7) to talk about marriage.

Our bodies as the "Temple of the Holy Spirit" doesn't link us to the Aaronic Priesthood. That is an incorrect read of Scripture.

 

[Ruiz]

Don't confuse this discussion with facts Ruiz! We are talking about what is a sin TODAY in AMERICA, not 2000 years ago in Jerusalem!

I'm sorry, I will not confuse the difference again. :thumbsup:

 

[The Archangel]

We are priests and joint heirs with Christ - that is scripturally clear.

There was a specific law given to Aaron and the descendants that they did not follow. They were forbidden to take strong drink when they entered the temple (tabernacle). See: Lev 10

Paul states that our body is a tabernacle (temple).

Within us the Holy Spirit dwells just as in the temple (tabernacle) the presence of God dwelt.

Therefore, the Scripture clearly teaches that the believer is not to take any wine or strong drink - exceptions noted.

This is a ridiculous stretch of (il)logic.

If this is the case, explain Jesus serving wine to His disciples at The Last Supper. After all, the Jewish Passover required the use of wine, did it not?

While you're at it, explain this passage:

[22] “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. [23] And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. [24] And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, [25] then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses [26] and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. [27] And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you. (Deuteronomy 14:22-27 ESV; emphasis mine)
​

Here you have Israel (including the priests--because they drank the wine when they weren't serving before the Ark) being told it is fine to drink wine and strong drink. Actually, they are being encouraged to do so. What is more, to do what is being described in this passage is seen to be an act of worship. In this context, eating and drinking are happening "before the LORD" which means that the drinking is, in one sense, and act of worship.

The Archangel

 

[Amy.G]

Show me!

I don't believe there is one verse in the Scriptures that condemn any of those three.

But, they remain sin, for they are definitely out of the character and nature of Christ.

Mark 7
21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Rom 1
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

Mt 19
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”


I'm beginning to smell a troll. (1 Opinions 3:16)

 

[The Archangel]

There was a specific law given to Aaron and the descendants that they did not follow. They were forbidden to take strong drink when they entered the temple (tabernacle). See: Lev 10

You are wrong about this. The Leviticus 10 passage is about Nadab and Abihu--Aaron's sons.

You are claiming that Nadab and Abihu were put to death for not following a prohibition against alcohol given to the priesthood. This is clearly a wrong reading of the text.

In Leviticus 10 we see Nadab and Abihu put to death by the LORD Himself for offering "strange fire" before the LORD.

After, and not before, their deaths, Moses issues an injunction about drinking before/during doing service before the Ark. The implication is that Nadab and Abihu were drunk and their drunkenness was a contributing factor to their offering strange fire.

Nowhere does it say that Nadab and Abihu were put to death because they were drunk. Nowhere does it say that Nadab and Abihu were put to death because they disobeyed a command not to drink.

The cause of death is quite plain: Offering strange fire. Could alcohol have contributed to the offering of strange fire? Sure, and it probably did. But the punishment was not carried out for anything dealing with alcohol.

The Archangel

 

[zrs6v4]

I would disagree that it is permissible to take an intoxicant (exception noted).

On what basis? Scripture? Baptist tradition? your own reasoning?

Lets go ahead and get philosophical (and I will lose) what the heck. Since this debate is clearly not God's revealed thoughts on the matter lets have fun

What is an intoxicant?

What is the purpose for intoxicants being a no no?

Are there any intoxicants permissible such as given by worldly doctors or leagalized drugs? Why are they allowed to do this and override God on the issue?

Let's say someone does find it ok to drink under self control. They have 2 glasses of wine over the span of 2 hours. No intoxication experienced at all. What is it about the wine that is so bad that we can't take it? Why is it ok then to drink and not ok now? Why didn't Jesus rebuke the disciples for drinking wine if it is such a big deal? Are you sure Jesus didn't even sip wine?

It is a matter of teaching that the Godly man does not sit at the seat of the scornful (wine is a mocker) and does not walk and stands in the way of the ungodly sinners (strong drink is raging).

You are taking Scripture here and twisting it. Don't take this to be confrontational or challenging in a way that you feel you need to defend yourself by finding more Scripture you have not yet found to back you up.

Your quotations:

Proverbs 20: "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler,
And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.

Psalm 1: "How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!"

You have made an assumption drawn from Proverbs that wine in and of itself is the issue when there are various passages that reveal it is not the issue. It is like saying money is the root of all evil when indeed it isn't. The heart is the issue not the physical element unless it causes a lack of self-control or something similar. Drugs clearly do this, alcohol does not unless abused.

You are determining the point of the Proverb based on your view rather than Scripture. The point in the proverb is in the parrallel line below "intoxication is unwise" showing that the second thought comes from the first thought which tells us intoxication leads to mocking and brawls, not the wine in moderation.

Psalm 1 with Proverbs 20 added into it is a proof text with your modification to back your position. We all do this, but it isn't advised unless you do not want to learn God's word for what it is, then do what you want with it. Psalm 1, as you know, simply contrasts the righteous from the wicked in that the righteous do not act like the wicked by living in sin against God, but rather they verses 2-3, then verses 4-5 explains the wicked, then verse 6 ends the psalm

Here is a passage for you to deal with: Deut 14:26 and psalm 104:14-15

Isaiah cried out against the priestly line who got to drinking so often that it was as bad as a sorority beer party. Look further in that passage for the rebuke and solution by God.
Secondly, there is a matter of separation unto God. That hasn't been considered in this thread.

To you defense, it is clear that wine and other forms of alcohol can be dangerous. This does not mean we can make a command out of it and tell everyone they are wrong for drinking (which I am not sure if that is your belief or not). Clearly there are Proverbs from Kings who testify to how it can ruin the throne (if it becomes out of control), Isaiah's people abusing it, and of course there are Nazarite vows against it (which don't apply to everyone). The New Testament commands against abuse of alcohol, but doesn't say drinking in moderation is a sin. It has been quoted that Jesus in John 2 made wine, why do that if it is a sin to drink it? Did Jesus tempt people here? Do the protests in Luke 7 from Jewish leadership that said John abstained but Jesus didn't imply Jesus has a drink here and there?

I also will credit the fact that I would rather someone not drink that drink. Yet, for me having a drink with friends is a great opportunity to converse and even prevent my heart from being legalistic at times. I rarely have a drink and I have never suffered with an addiction to alcohol. I have struggled with materialism majorly throughout my life? Do you drive a nice car, that tempts me greatly .

I hope that helps clear up my thoughts and the majority of others thoughts on here.

 

[The Archangel]

Show me!

I don't believe there is one verse in the Scriptures that condemn any of those three.

But, they remain sin, for they are definitely out of the character and nature of Christ.

Drinking is "out of the character and nature of Christ?"

Have you not read this: [29] I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”(Matthew 26:29 ESV)

After the Last Supper, Jesus announces He won't be having wine again until the Kingdom. So, Jesus will drink (again).

What is more, the phrase "i will not drink again..." tells us that Jesus has been drinking wine. You couldn't be a Jew living in Palestine in the first century and not drink wine.

Certainly, the wine may have been cut with water, and likely it was. However, this raises the question how much alcohol is too much? NyQuil is reported to be about 25% alcohol, does that mean to take NyQuil is a sin? Remember, it is an over-the-counter medication and, as such, is not subject to prescription by doctors. Or is it alcohol under the brand name "Budweiser," "Miller," "Jack Daniels," etc. that is prohibited?

The Archangel

 

[Arbo]

That said, I will have a couple of beers tonight as I watch my Vikings get crushed by the Packers.

The first step on the road to recovery is admitting the Vikings have a problem...:laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

However, this raises the question how much alcohol is too much? NyQuil is reported to be about 25% alcohol, does that mean to take NyQuil is a sin? Remember, it is an over-the-counter medication and, as such, is not subject to prescription by doctors. Or is it alcohol under the brand name "Budweiser," "Miller," "Jack Daniels," etc. that is prohibited?

The Archangel

I think Coors is the sinful one. Yeah, that's it.

 

[annsni]

Annsni, thank you for typing out the full paragraph.

I still don't get what point you are trying to make.

You really think there are some public places that Shorter College professors are still allowed to drink?

Absolutely. Wherever students would not be. They can also partake at home.

 

[preacher4truth]

I find it of interest that one would rush in to call another who would have a beer, or enjoy wine a "drunk." Well, they also called Christ a winebibber. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Jerome, the SBC passes all sorts of resolutions that I find entirely unnecessary. You've quoted just one of them.

There was one about Disney (gasp, how dare they favor giving benefits to same s*x partners and thus encourage sinfulness, even though they (the SBC) ignored the fact that the same rule covering same s*x partnerships would also cover hetero's that are just shacking, let's pick and choose our sins why don't we?) which was probably the most foolish one I can remember.

there was one last year about illegal immigrants that couldn't make up its mind whether to accept it or work for secure borders and thus ended up meaning nothing.

If I have to abide by every resolution the "majority" of SBCers votes for, I'll quit being a member of a church that associates with them. But I don't have too. Neither does my church. Cause we Baptist are always independent at heart.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From "Alcohol Use In America" Resolution passed by the 2006 Southern Baptist Convention:



Full text here for those who want to reinterpret/reimagine what the Convention meant.

Is that true?!? Thank Heavens Im not affiliated with any of that ....."Fiddlesticks" I say! :laugh:

 

[Old Union Brother]

Is that true?!? Thank Heavens Im not affiliated with any of that ....."Fiddlesticks" I say! :laugh:

me too!!!!!:applause::wavey:

 

[Robert Snow]

Huh? Are you saying my dad wasn't a believer because he took morphine?

If he had broken eight ribs and his shoulder along with a punctured lung like I did during my last motorcycle wreck I bet he would be begging for morphine. I know I was.

 

[annsni]

Any one know a doctor who wouldn't mind writing me a prescription, cuz I need another beer....or 2

I've had 2 doctors prescribe alcohol: Beer and/or wine for nursing and beer for a urinary tract infection.