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Drinking Question......

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annsni

Well-Known Member
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Pro 23:29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes?


Pro 23:30 Those who linger long over wine, Those who go to [fn] taste mixed wine.


Pro 23:31 Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it [fn] sparkles in the cup, When it goes down smoothly;


Pro 23:32 At the last it bites like a serpent And stings like a viper.


Pro 23:33 Your eyes will see strange things And your [fn] mind will utter perverse things.


Pro 23:34 And you will be like one who lies down in the [fn] middle of the sea, Or like one who lies down on the top of a [fn] mast.


Pro 23:35 "They struck me, but I did not become [fn] ill; They beat me, but I did not know it. When shall I awake? I will seek [fn] another drink."


I am no expert but for what it is worth, I always felt these verses described the person that had a drinking problem, and were in the habit of mixing his drinks in some way in order to make it a stronger more potent drink.

While I certainly don't use it as a study version, I think the Message has a great way of putting these verses into our language:

29-35 Who are the people who are always crying the blues?
Who do you know who reeks of self-pity?
Who keeps getting beat up for no reason at all?
Whose eyes are bleary and bloodshot?
It's those who spend the night with a bottle,
for whom drinking is serious business.
Don't judge wine by its label,
or its bouquet, or its full-bodied flavor.
Judge it rather by the hangover it leaves you with—
the splitting headache, the queasy stomach.
Do you really prefer seeing double,
with your speech all slurred,
Reeling and seasick,
drunk as a sailor?
"They hit me," you'll say, "but it didn't hurt;
they beat on me, but I didn't feel a thing.
When I'm sober enough to manage it,
bring me another drink!"
 

Luke2427

Active Member
May I add a few points to the "drinking" issue as it relates to modern day Americans (especially) and a lesser extent to European countries.

First, there is historical proof that the wind made in the Bible was ferminted for two reasons. A) To allow it to be stored without microbial growth that would either turn it to vinagar or just plain make ruin it as a safe drink. There is also historical proof that the wine of the day was a fifty-fifty cut with grape-juice and in some documents it was cut with water for the specific purpose of lowering the alcoholic content to prevent becoming drunk.

Second, Yes, there is one place where evidence of drinking wine to get drunk is mentioned and that just happens to be the first miracle recorded of the Son of God, Jesus. The statement was made by a guest as to why the "best" wine was used first and the cheaper wine later after the guests were drunk. This does seem to indicate that wine was indeed consumed as a "feel good" beverage during the first century. Let us remember that Jesus would have been right and not sinning if the other guests did not see anything wrong with drinking wine for this purpose, but then we have to deal with several verses mostly found in Proverbs not to drink beyond your capacity of "control" and become a drunken slop (my paraphrase, but I think it fits.)

Now, I used to drink. I could drink anybody I knew under the table. I could drink fifteen different drinks in the same evening and beat anybody at the pool table and even keep my mouth under control.

I would cook steaks, Italian sausage and roast corn on charcoal while having a nice cold six-pack to enjoy (part of which I poured on the meat of course). You can't enjoy your buzz unless you are drinking on an empty stomach. I would ask my six year old daughter to bring me another cold one from the frig which she (being daddy's loving daughter) would jump up, run into the house and open it carefully to make sure it didn't spray me (Did you hear what I just said? She was learning habits from her father.)

Still being a drinker I remember being in Israel at a nice restaurant with a tour group containing both Christians and non-Christians. We had a few people with us that we had been working on to accept Jesus as their Savior. Another group that were with us, sat together at a different table because we were Baptists and they were Catholics and people just tend to stay with the people.

I will never forget that there were several men and women we took along in the hopes of converting to accept Jesus. One had become a friend of mine and I had been working with him all week by pointing out the place we think that Jesus may have been killed. I was sick the first week with a protozoa and missed a lot of side trips, but God answers prayers and we were allowed to go where we wanted for a couple of extra days in the old city of Jerusalem, where we met a very nice Christian Arab (who was an Israeli citizen, by the way--many people don't realize there are lots of Arabs that are Israeli citizens and who fight right next to the Jews during a war.

One of the non-Christians pointed (discretely) at the Catholic group and said, "Look, those people are drinking; obviously if I become a Christian, the Catholic group is not the right group or they wouldn't be sitting there blatantly drinking booze--they sound like a bunch of hypocrits to me. ) I tried to defend them and say, well I don't think they have a problem with a little wine with their food since most are only ordering one glass. He turned to me as serious as the sun rises and says: "No, I don't care. I'm trying to find out which of your groups are right before I even think about making that committment and to sit there and blantantly drink in public does not seem to be the Christian thing to do.

Now, my point is NOT whether the Bible says we can drink or not, but it says (and I'll again use my own thoughts on this) to pluck out your eye or whatever else if it is going to hurt your Christian witness.

Another time, just this last year an engineer who is an evolutionionist who says that God could not exist, and every Christian I have met is a hypocrit anyway. I had a new neighbor move in and this engineer who does not believe in God was giving me a ride. The neighbor was standing in his front yard having a "cool-one" (And in Oklahoma, regular beer is only 3.2%--that was so Oklahoma could sell beer at that level of alcohol and it is classified as "non-intoxicating". To buy regular 6% beer, it cannot be sold cold, nor can it be sold by a regular store--it must be purchased at a liquor store. So, people move to Oklahoma are surprised at the lower alcohol beer and think its funny until they find out that we were drinking beer throughout the prohibition (and bootlegging it to other states) because three-two beer (as its called) is identified by state law as a non-intoxicating drink. You can drink three-two in state parks, but you better not get caught with a bottle or glass of rum in a state park.

finally, everybody in Oklahoma who drinks knows you can get JUST AS WASTED on 3.2 as you can on what is known as Liquor store beer--the only downside is the number of visits to the rest-room.

That man, who was driving me home had never discussed drinking with me, but he pointed at my neighbor with his 3.2 beer can in his hand and his friend with a 3.2 can (much like you see on certain cartoons while the men stand in the alley and talk). I will never forget what he said without being prompted: "Well, looks like you have your missionary work cut out for you. Obviously, your next door neighbor isn't a Christian or he wouldn't be standing there drinking beer in front of the whole town.

It struck me that, whether or not the Bible "legalizes beer or wine in the OT" or even the new; does not the Bible warn us from doing anything that will harm your witness to non-Christians?

Let me tell you that regardless of whether that young engineer becomes a Christian or remains an athiest--some of his blood will be on the hands of the man with the single beer can in his hand.

I told my wife I was going to quit drinking because I was training my girls that it was okay to drink and if any of them continued to do it when they got big and became alcoholics (or already had alcoholic tendencies) then their blood might be on my hands because I not only did something that may have been okay in Biblical times due to storage of the juice and obviously there wasn't much problem with it.

I live in the Bible belt and work with people from all over the world. I would say that in a group of 350 people I know of two that I actually believe are TRUE Christians and they laugh at us, calling us hypocrits if they dare see us with a cold six-pack, or a mug of beer at the steak house. Let alone a fifty dollar glass of wine at one of our Italian resataurants.

People are watching you...brothers and sisters in Christ. Are you like John the Baptist and Jesus Himself? Can a person tell you are a Christian, because whether you like it or not, they are watching you and they want you to mess up and drink or cuss or any other reason they can justify their theory that Christians are nothing more than dumb-hicks who believe something as archaic as a 2000 year old book.

God has given them a longing (for lack of a better term) for God and any excuse they can use to not have to accept the "narrow path" they will and hypocritical Christians just give them one more excuse.

Believe me folks, its not just the government that is watching you!!!

. . . just my thoughts on the subject and to boil it down to one sentence: If you do anything that is questionable and harms our testamony, the blood of those who do not accept him just may be on our hands.

Today, people are watching us carefully just to see how liberal and how much entertainment we will bring into the churches in an attempt to loose a battle that has already been won; but, how many soldiers are we going to loose before Jesus says, as He did in the day of Noah---that's enough.

So, go enjoy your wine, but look around and see how many people would just love to see you play the part of a hypocrit while calling yourself a Christian.

This is not an argument Philip.

It takes the admonition concerning our witness too far. It assumes we should conform to every whim that the lost community purports as the standard of sincerity and hypocrisy. We should not.

It is far more controversial today in the lost community for husbands to be the heads of their homes and for parents to spank their children. Are we supposed to throw that aside because they might call us hypocrites because we do not meet THEIR standard of what a true Christian is? Of course not! That's utterly absurd.

Neither should we swear off social drinking just because some ignorant lost people lay out some foolish standard by which they judge what makes a Christian. The lost world does not dictate to Christians how we live.

Jesus did not conform to the standards of stupid, arrogant lost people who thought they could judge what makes a person godly. And on the same issue, at that.

The Pharisees accused Jesus of being a glutton and a winebibber. Jesus did not care, nor did he change his lifestyle to these ignorant, arrogant, judgmental lost people.

Neither do I. Neither should you.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Not only that, using this is blatant cherry-picking.

No one yet has said what good comes from drinking wine.

Scripture says, "God made the wine that makes merry the heart".

It makes merry the heart. God made it. That's enough.

When the Bible says something like that it is placing its stamp of approval on it.

The only thing you can sensibly, intelligently argue against is the abuse of wine. This would be moot since we ALL AGREE THAT THE ABUSE OF ANYTHING INCLUDING WINE IS SIN!
 

Luke2427

Active Member
...yet in many places it is a curse to not have it. Go figure. :rolleyes:

I also recall God saying it gladdens the heart of man.

Why has NOT ONE person actually touched my post where I listed all of the passages of Scripture?

Because Pharisees don't hold the Scriptures in the same high regard as you and I.

They hold their opinions in that lofty place in their hearts which you and I would only give to the Scriptures in our own hearts.

SCRIPTURES!? WHO CARES ABOUT THE SCRIPTURES!??

I have my opinion on the matter! Don't muddle it with what the Almighty has said on it!!
 

Luke2427

Active Member
How is it the weak of faith who do not drink? I would say that it is the carnal who drink and the strong in faith who do not. :thumbsup:

Because the weaker brother is always the one who has a big problem with something God has not condemned.

His faith is weak because he is ignorant of the will and Word of God.

Abstaniers tend to fit this bill.

People who drink responsibly as the Bible teaches show that they understand the Scripture and thus show that they are the stronger brother.
 

freeatlast

New Member
This is not an argument Philip.

It takes the admonition concerning our witness too far. It assumes we should conform to every whim that the lost community purports as the standard of sincerity and hypocrisy. We should not.

It is far more controversial today in the lost community for husbands to be the heads of their homes and for parents to spank their children. Are we supposed to throw that aside because they might call us hypocrites because we do not meet THEIR standard of what a true Christian is? Of course not! That's utterly absurd.

Neither should we swear off social drinking just because some ignorant lost people lay out some foolish standard by which they judge what makes a Christian. The lost world does not dictate to Christians how we live.

Jesus did not conform to the standards of stupid, arrogant lost people who thought they could judge what makes a person godly. And on the same issue, at that.

The Pharisees accused Jesus of being a glutton and a winebibber. Jesus did not care, nor did he change his lifestyle to these ignorant, arrogant, judgmental lost people.

Neither do I. Neither should you.

I would have to disagree. It is not going too far when we limit our liberties to be seen in a culture as true to our calling. Scripture makes that clear. 1Cor 9:18-22. However the examples you tried to use are ridiculous. There is a big difference in obeying the word of God and not conforming to culture in those areas of commands then there is in surrendering our liberties to conform with a societies understanding of proper conduct.

You also used the scripture about how Jesus was called a glutton and a winebibber. The problem here is that those who seek to let their liberties run wild instead of limiting them have twisted that passage to fit their twisted view.
The fact that the Lord was accused of something does not mean that He was actually doing it. Let me explain. Those who seek their own pleasures over self denial for the Lord suggest the Lord actually was a person who drank strong drink and often based on that scripture. However I have never heard someone try and claim being a glutton is biblical because Jesus was also a glutton based on that scripture. That is what the accusation says! The truth is however that He was neither a glutton or one that used strong drink. They were simply accusing Him of those things. He was also accused of having a devil, but that also was false.
So your argument is totally lacking merit of any kind. We ARE to limit ourselves (our liberties) to what ever would cause society to bring accusation on us as long as that denial does not go against a direct command of God. The reason that anyone would be against this is because they love themselves more then God. That is what scripture says would happen in the last days. 2Tim 4:3-4.
 

freeatlast

New Member
Because the weaker brother is always the one who has a big problem with something God has not condemned.

His faith is weak because he is ignorant of the will and Word of God.

Abstaniers tend to fit this bill.

People who drink responsibly as the Bible teaches show that they understand the Scripture and thus show that they are the stronger brother.

How blind can anyone be to claim that they are strong because they drink and a brother who refrains is weak? By your standards John the Baptist was weak and you are strong. PLEASE! How about those who drink are blind and those who abstain can see. By the way what exactly is responsible drinking?
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
As is obvious by your claim that the Bible does not teach us to abstain from alcohol.


OK. Look not upon the wine when it is fermented.

In your effort to support this new doctrine of teetotalism which is not older than Pentecostalism, you have added to the Scripture, created a new doctrine the Church has never adopted, twisted the Word of God to suit this poorly formed argument, and haphazardly spoken against what God Almighty has spoken for.


It has been shown to you that the Bible teaches the moderate consumption of wine.

The Puritans were most certainly one of the purest sects in Christian history and they drank beer.

The Pilgrims brought it over on the Mayflower.

Scripture and church history show that you and yours are well nigh alone in this new doctrine.

All that you really have is the Pharisees and Billy Sunday to support your position.

Why don't you bend to God's Word?

Either make a case from Scripture that God demands teetotalism or confess your false doctrine and turn from it.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
How blind can anyone be to claim that thye are strong because they drink and a brother who refrains is weak? What exactly is responsible drinking?

I think I made it clear. Reread the post.

The real question is how blind can someone be to their own spiritual weakness who condemns what God does not- that being the very definition of weaker brothers?
 

ituttut

New Member
See, the issue is that Fred keeps saying that the Bible says not to look on wine when it is fermented however, that's not in any version I have - even the NIV and the Message! LOL
Agree, and from your post it looks as if Fred is including all types, and colors.

I find in this verse a No, NO spelled out for us. "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." There is such a thing as Red Sparkling Wine. It is effervescent. Does the wine bubble in the cup? Is there a "blush to it"? Do we desire "sweets"? A "sweet, bubbly" will make a beeline to our brain.

A previous verse tells us to not tarry. With the "sweet stuff" you don't have to tarry very long.

To tell you the truth I have no idea if God's people ever had white Wine, also not knowing if White Grapes even existed in that age.
 

JohnHunton

New Member
I say this

I cant prove that if you have a beer or wine wrong but Paul teaches us to abstain from the appearance of evil. If you are in the U.S. in most places you set down at a meal somewhere order you beer then invite the waitress to here your Church then what are they going to think. Come on lets be realistic what more important. I have been to England 4 time they may not have problem. In the U.S yes for the most part I have been to Germany 3 times not Problem to most . In Jamaica big problem in Guatemala big problem Mexico big problem and In Africa you get the picture. I think it is better just to abstain from drinking use it in your communion OK BUT I dont think we would serve beer or whiskey at the Lord's table no we would use wine made from grapes. If you must drink a beer please dont do it in public
 

freeatlast

New Member
I cant prove that if you have a beer or wine wrong but Paul teaches us to abstain from the appearance of evil. If you are in the U.S. in most places you set down at a meal somewhere order you beer then invite the waitress to here your Church then what are they going to think. Come on lets be realistic what more important. I have been to England 4 time they may not have problem. In the U.S yes for the most part I have been to Germany 3 times not Problem to most . In Jamaica big problem in Guatemala big problem Mexico big problem and In Africa you get the picture. I think it is better just to abstain from drinking use it in your communion OK BUT I dont think we would serve beer or whiskey at the Lord's table no we would use wine made from grapes. If you must drink a beer please dont do it in public

I can tell you why they have no problem in England, and Germany. They at one time were filled with Christians, but they have since abandoned the faith. I believe that God writes Ichabod on such nations as we are seeing happen here in the USA because of our rebellion. Thye do not have the Spirit to lead them so as they can know that drinking is not for the Child of God.
 

freeatlast

New Member
In your effort to support this new doctrine of teetotalism which is not older than Pentecostalism, you have added to the Scripture, created a new doctrine the Church has never adopted, twisted the Word of God to suit this poorly formed argument, and haphazardly spoken against what God Almighty has spoken for.


It has been shown to you that the Bible teaches the moderate consumption of wine.

The Puritans were most certainly one of the purest sects in Christian history and they drank beer.

The Pilgrims brought it over on the Mayflower.

Scripture and church history show that you and yours are well nigh alone in this new doctrine.

All that you really have is the Pharisees and Billy Sunday to support your position.

Why don't you bend to God's Word?

Either make a case from Scripture that God demands teetotalism or confess your false doctrine and turn from it.

What is moderation? Where is the line? The bible NEVER says to drink in moderation.
 
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Jason Garrett

New Member
Drinking alcohol is not a sin against God. #1, it's not illegal to do so, so consuming it is not in violation of man's law. Second, no where in the Word does it state such.

Is consuming large amounts of fattening food a sin against God? Is not taking care of our bodies to the point we are 25, 50, 100 pounds overweight a sin against God? I once had a revival pastor at my church who incorporated the use of alcohol into his sermon as an evidence of being far from God, yet he was grotesquely overweight. Just rediculous.

Would you invite someone into your home who grossly mismanages their personal finances? This is a sin. Would you invite someone into your home who does not tithe? Seems to me we as humans spend a whole lot more time worrying about the sin of others than Jesus EVER did. To Jesus, sin is what keeps us from personal relationship with Him. His punishment for our sin is disciplinary, not punitive. It's with a purpose. Thus, I would contend preventing those who are struggling in whatever kind of sin from being around us is punitive and rather high and mighty. Jesus went LOOKING for the sinners and developing relationship with them. We SHOULD be inviting these people into our homes in order to develop relationship with them and hopefully, through the leading of the holy spirit in their lives, encourage and convict them to change their ways.
 

freeatlast

New Member
Drinking alcohol is not a sin against God. #1, it's not illegal to do so, so consuming it is not in violation of man's law. Second, no where in the Word does it state such.

Is consuming large amounts of fattening food a sin against God? Is not taking care of our bodies to the point we are 25, 50, 100 pounds overweight a sin against God? I once had a revival pastor at my church who incorporated the use of alcohol into his sermon as an evidence of being far from God, yet he was grotesquely overweight. Just rediculous.

Would you invite someone into your home who grossly mismanages their personal finances? This is a sin. Would you invite someone into your home who does not tithe? Seems to me we as humans spend a whole lot more time worrying about the sin of others than Jesus EVER did. To Jesus, sin is what keeps us from personal relationship with Him. His punishment for our sin is disciplinary, not punitive. It's with a purpose. Thus, I would contend preventing those who are struggling in whatever kind of sin from being around us is punitive and rather high and mighty. Jesus went LOOKING for the sinners and developing relationship with them. We SHOULD be inviting these people into our homes in order to develop relationship with them and hopefully, through the leading of the holy spirit in their lives, encourage and convict them to change their ways.

You seem to be totally confused on the bible and its teachings. First there is no tithe for the church. We are free to give as our hearts decides, Read Corinthians. Next the bible never says that being what you call fat is a sin. That is mans teaching not God's. This is not about the lost but about those who claim to be saved and still seek to dishonor themselves and the Lord with alcohol.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I can tell you why they have no problem in England, and Germany. They at one time were filled with Christians, but they have since abandoned the faith. I believe that God writes Ichabod on such nations as we are seeing happen here in the USA because of our rebellion. Thye do not have the Spirit to lead them so as they can know that drinking is not for the Child of God.
There you have it, to be saved you cannot drink...they go hand in hand. I wouldn't be so quick to call out the salvation of many believers when you hold to a works based false Gospel yourself.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I can tell you why they have no problem in England, and Germany. They at one time were filled with Christians, but they have since abandoned the faith. I believe that God writes Ichabod on such nations as we are seeing happen here in the USA because of our rebellion. Thye do not have the Spirit to lead them so as they can know that drinking is not for the Child of God.

I would say that my friends both in England and Germany would disagree with you. There is life in those countries. The Gospel is being preached and the name of God is being lifted up for His glory.
 

freeatlast

New Member
That is between them and the Holy Spirit , is it not??

I think that is a cop out for one and against the scriptures for another because we do have some informating in EPH., but let me ask do you think the Spirit of God has one standard or many in this area?
 
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