Drinking

[rlvaughn]

You are missing the point. I do not translate with "grape juice" (グレープジュース), I translate "liquid from grapes"（葡萄の果樹） That is an ambiguous rendering that gives the reader the authority to interpret, rather than interpreting for him. That's a good deal better than, say, the Motoyaku, which translated sometimes as sake (酒, highly alcoholic rice wine).

I can make no knowledgeable comment on what would be an acceptable, better, or best Japanese translation. (Still, if your primary other choice is sake, your decision seems quite reasonable to me!) Nevertheless, I would find it hard to believe that something like "liquid from grapes" would normally be understood as "wine" by English speakers. To me, in English "wine" seems like the general reasonable choice. (We do have "fruit of the vine," but, of course, that is not a translation of oinos.)

As for all the wine in the NT being alcoholic, not true. You have "new wine" (oinos) occurring 4 times in a context that shows it must be unfermented.

Yes, think you are right that οινον νεον in these contexts would have initially been unfermented, but it was wine in prospect in that was what it was intended to be. I was thinking of the other occurrences without the modifier "new" and I still believe all of them would be alcoholic (of course, with the understanding that John 2 is still the open question of our discussion).

Um, these are not methuo but methusko.

As I said earlier, I have no intention of defending that person's view (unless I change my mind, which God has the right to do, I consider the NT uses of methuo always intending intoxication/drunkenness). I gave that link as someone who holds a different view, and I might should have looked harder to find a better representative! Nevertheless, I think if you wade through all his references (if you have any desire to) you will find methuo in some of them. I will probably eventually get around to looking at this in the LXX, but not now.

Um, your last sentence is reading into the text.

Yes, and I meant to make no claim otherwise. Just considering that what happened to the abundance of wine miraculously created by Jesus is an open question, and I'm not sure there is evidence of one outcome more than another -- other than that some of it would have been consumed at the wedding feast since they were out of wine. (That Jesus can and did create more than could be consumed by the people present is proven in the miracles of the fish and loaves.)

Another point that I'd like to do more research on is that the oinos was often diluted. In 3 Maccabees 5:2 in the LXX for example, Hannibal fed his elephants "unmixed wine" (oino pleoni akrato) to hype them up to execute Jews. So if you dilute 3% "wine" then it is even less like the modern stuff.

Here is a link with some good references to the ancient practice of mixing water with wine: Wine & Strong Drink in the Bible, Part 3 – Salem Bible Church

Yes, I don't doubt that practice (diluting wine with water). I believe Patton wrote about that in his book, but it's been years since I read it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My thoughts on alcohol!



Just a few thoughts on why, as a Christian, I do not drink alcohol. First of all, why should I drink alcohol, when all around me lives are being destroyed by it? I have children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. Do they need to see me drinking alcohol? Do I want them to say, "Well, dad drinks," or "Well, gramp drinks," or "well, great gramp drinks?" Or, someone I do not know very well saying, "Tom Sprague drinks, so I guess it is OK!" I want to avoid the very appearance of evil--period! What may be OK for some Christian’s, is not OK for me. I am well aware that I am the only Bible that some people will read, and for me, walking with Christ is serious!!! He laid down His life for me, and He shed His Blood for me!! He delivered me from alcoholism, so why would I want to enjoy something that is so deadly and destructive? Someone might say to me, "Tom, a little drink won't hurt anyone!" O--really? Well, it may not hurt you, but what about those that will imitate you? What starts out as a harmless drink, for them, could end up in a ruined marriage, or a lost job, or a destroyed family!! Why would I want to do something that would cause someone to stumble? Let me be perfectly clear--I have never heard anyone say that their life is better because they drink alcohol!! Go to an AA meeting, and you will hear story after story of ruined lives!! When Christ sets us free from an addiction, He does not intend for us to go "back," and just lightly indulge in it!! That is playing with fire, and your latter end will be greater (destruction) than the beginning. Take a look at Luke 11:24-26



I realize that when we want to do something, we will find a way to justify it!! For me, I can find no way to justify my taking a drink--period! For me, to drink alcohol would be the same as taking it, and pouring it out upon the ones I love the most!! And, pouring it upon the One that loves me the most--Christ--my Lord!

Brother, it is not a sin to drink to those who are conscious of its down sides ... it is a sin to drink if you can’t control it. If your children see you responsibly addressing it that way then you are being a good model for them to emulate. Abstinence is good only if your aware of your weakness and are responsible to abstain . As for the rest of us, drink responsibly.

 

[John of Japan]

I can make no knowledgeable comment on what would be an acceptable, better, or best Japanese translation. (Still, if your primary other choice is sake, your decision seems quite reasonable to me!) Nevertheless, I would find it hard to believe that something like "liquid from grapes" would normally be understood as "wine" by English speakers. To me, in English "wine" seems like the general reasonable choice. (We do have "fruit of the vine," but, of course, that is not a translation of oinos.)

Sake (酒) only appeared in the Motoyaku, I believe, and was totally inadequate. It didn't take long to be revised in the Bungoyaku. The usual rendering in Japanese is budoushu (葡萄酒), which has the Chinese character for sake (pronounced shu in the Chinese compound, meaning alcohol in general in the context) added to the word for grape. We tried to keep it ambiguous, leaving interpretation up to the reader rather than insisting on either grape juice or alcohol. I believe that ambiguous meaning to be the true meaning of oinos.

Yes, think you are right that οινον νεον in these contexts would have initially been unfermented, but it was wine in prospect in that was what it was intended to be. I was thinking of the other occurrences without the modifier "new" and I still believe all of them would be alcoholic (of course, with the understanding that John 2 is still the open question of our discussion).

Yeah, well, regardless, in those passages oinos refers to unfermented juice of the grape. There's no getting around that.

As I said earlier, I have no intention of defending that person's view (unless I change my mind, which God has the right to do, I consider the NT uses of methuo always intending intoxication/drunkenness). I gave that link as someone who holds a different view, and I might should have looked harder to find a better representative! Nevertheless, I think if you wade through all his references (if you have any desire to) you will find methuo in some of them. I will probably eventually get around to looking at this in the LXX, but not now.

I just did a BibleWorks search of methuo. I've never looked at all the references. It will make an interesting study.

 

[rlvaughn]

Sake (酒) only appeared in the Motoyaku, I believe, and was totally inadequate. It didn't take long to be revised in the Bungoyaku. The usual rendering in Japanese is budoushu (葡萄酒), which has the Chinese character for sake (pronounced shu in the Chinese compound, meaning alcohol in general in the context) added to the word for grape. We tried to keep it ambiguous, leaving interpretation up to the reader rather than insisting on either grape juice or alcohol. I believe that ambiguous meaning to be the true meaning of oinos.
Yeah, well, regardless, in those passages oinos refers to unfermented juice of the grape. There's no getting around that.

That "new wine" is just grape juice is not universally agreed upon (I've read other opinions), but I am agreeable to it. Either way, the "wine" in John chapter 2 is not referred to as "new wine." Also, even if oinos is generic or ambiguous, the overall context and plain reading of John 2 favors wine over grape juice.

I just did a BibleWorks search of methuo. I've never looked at all the references. It will make an interesting study.

That should be interesting and helpful. If you think of it when you are finished, please give us at the Baptist Board a report of your findings.

 

[Pastor DanL]

And then there is the FLIP side.
Study: Alcohol does not have any health benefits
‘Moderate’ drinking guidelines are too loose, study says
"But alcohol consumption, even at that allegedly moderate level, is also associated with a suite of cardiovascular problems, including stroke, aortic aneurysm, fatal hypertensive disease and heart failure. The data show that the bad effects offset the good."

 

[John of Japan]

That "new wine" is just grape juice is not universally agreed upon (I've read other opinions), but I am agreeable to it. Either way, the "wine" in John chapter 2 is not referred to as "new wine." Also, even if oinos is generic or ambiguous, the overall context and plain reading of John 2 favors wine over grape juice.

We'll agree to disagree then.

That should be interesting and helpful. If you think of it when you are finished, please give us at the Baptist Board a report of your findings.

I plan to continue the study, but won't finish it soon. We leave for vacation Monday.

 

[John of Japan]

Most sources admit that alcohol by itself is a poison. We saw a young housewife come to Christ in Japan who could not consume alcohol, because she would lose consciousness after only one beer!

In my understanding, alcohol itself doesn't have a taste to it. So the logical conclusion is that people drink it for what it does for them, for the buzz, not the taste. As the Bible says, give that stuff to someone who is dying. I dont' need it, since I have the Holy Spirit and His fruit!

For the record, I've tasted wine, and it smelled and tasted awful. It's an acquired taste. And beer is worse. i much prefer a good grape juice for the taste. I have a nice glass every morning, and delight in it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Most sources admit that alcohol by itself is a poison. We saw a young housewife come to Christ in Japan who could not consume alcohol, because she would lose consciousness after only one beer!

In my understanding, alcohol itself doesn't have a taste to it. So the logical conclusion is that people drink it for what it does for them, for the buzz, not the taste. As the Bible says, give that stuff to someone who is dying. I dont' need it, since I have the Holy Spirit and His fruit!

For the record, I've tasted wine, and it smelled and tasted awful. It's an acquired taste. And beer is worse. i much prefer a good grape juice for the taste. I have a nice glass every morning, and delight in it.

 

[TCassidy]

As far as the "grape juice" argument goes, there is a Greek word that means "grape juice." We see it in Acts 2:13. γλευκους - gleukous. Where we get our English word "glucose." A simple sugar.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Why do you abstain?

Rom 14:13 KJV Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rom 14:13 KJV Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

That could mean anything Wesley... could be a all u can eat buffet for some, a good looking woman or man depending, a box of chocolates to a fat person, money, cars etc.

 

[rlvaughn]

And then there is the FLIP side.

Another "flip side" study I've seen/read in the past says that grape juice offers the same health benefits as wine. I don't worry about such studies when trying to determine what is biblical (but I do like grape juice, so I like that study!).

I plan to continue the study, but won't finish it soon. We leave for vacation Monday.

Enjoy your vacation, but try not to forget us! Or maybe that is exactly what you're trying to do!

Most sources admit that alcohol by itself is a poison. We saw a young housewife come to Christ in Japan who could not consume alcohol, because she would lose consciousness after only one beer!

I would expect that saying alcohol is a poison or not derive a lot from their presuppositions. I just looked at one "alcohol is a position" page and decided that sugar and a number of other things is also a poison. As the the Japanese housewife, perhaps that is something like an "allergic reaction"? For some reason in recent years there are lots of folks with peanut allergies, but that doesn't make peanuts inherently sinful

In my understanding, alcohol itself doesn't have a taste to it. So the logical conclusion is that people drink it for what it does for them, for the buzz, not the taste. As the Bible says, give that stuff to someone who is dying. I dont' need it, since I have the Holy Spirit and His fruit!

For the record, I've tasted wine, and it smelled and tasted awful. It's an acquired taste. And beer is worse. i much prefer a good grape juice for the taste. I have a nice glass every morning, and delight in it.

I wouldn't know about alcohol's having a taste or no, but many (most) of the drinks that have alcohol have tastes -- that apparently many people claim they like. I suppose to some extent all tastes are acquired, such as buttermilk or sauerkraut (yum), oysters or balut (yuck) e.g. I'm with you, though, I don't care for the taste of wine -- definitely not beer -- and much prefer grape juice. I've always liked grape juice. Of course, even too much of it can be a bad thing. I have no interest in drinking that causes me to take the position that the wine at the wedding of Cana was fermented wine rather than grape juice. In fact, it was quite a hard sell for me to change my long-held and hard-held opinion on this text.

 

[atpollard]

Let me put it this way. In the new version of the Japanese NT I am currently proofreading should we change John 2:10 from what we currently have it as (十分飲んだ, have drunk plenty) to 酔っぱらっている (are drunk)? You see, this matters when translating the Bible.

That is a good question. I hope you don’t mind if I take a stab at it.

(First the disclaimer: I don’t read Greek, just Strong’s & Thayer’s, so I ain’t no linguist.)

It sort of depends on whether you are trying for ‘equivalent words’ or ‘equivalent thought’ as your primary goal. John 2:10 says “drunk” so that would be the more literal rendering. The issue is the intent of the meaning in the context that it is used. If you have ever drunk, then you will know that each drink further dulls your taste buds, so the ‘thought’ behind the statement about the quality of the wine is that most people serve the best flavored wine first and the cheaper wines after the guests have had their taste buds dulled by drinking. He is not attempting to express the thought that most of the guests are passing out as Jesus’ wine is being served.

Your decision is how to comminucate the message within the Japanese culture. Will they understand the idiomatic language if you say “drunk” to mean a general reference and not a specific description of this particular wedding? Will it taint the understanding of a wedding by that culture?

Since you are a Linguist who reads Greek, is there anything in the story to suggest that “wine” doesn’t mean “wine” and the man is THAT impressed with Grape Juice?

Why would most people serve the good grape juice first and the cheap grape juice later? That really only makes sense with alcohol.

 

[rlvaughn]

It's an acquired taste...

I suppose to some extent all tastes are acquired,...

Speaking of acquired tastes (gag), don't know what the Korean lady is saying, but...

 

[Wesley Briggman]

That could mean anything Wesley... could be a all u can eat buffet for some, a good looking woman or man depending, a box of chocolates to a fat person, money, cars etc.

Or wine, beer, etc. Correct?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Or wine, beer, etc. Correct?

Even a good scotch— single malt. That will. Put hair on your er chest as daddy used to say.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As far as the "grape juice" argument goes, there is a Greek word that means "grape juice." We see it in Acts 2:13. γλευκους - gleukous. Where we get our English word "glucose." A simple sugar.

Usually 30% for all us diabetics.

 

[Calminian]

...My interpretation of the facts scattered throughout the entire Bible is that drunkenness is absolutely condemned but a restriction against all drinking wine is not absolute.

This is the objective conclusion that virtually all careful readers come to.

 

[Calminian]

NEWS FLASH!! Child killed by gluttonous driver.

Oh, wait. That never happens. It's always a drunk driver.

Back to emotion.

 

[Calminian]

Even a good scotch— single malt. That will. Put hair on your er chest as daddy used to say.

My grandmother drank scotch every night. Not sure why scotch. She was Norwegian, but don't know if it was an ethnic preference. But every night until she died at age 95.