Drinking

[Moriah]

You don't make sense.
This is what I said:
The use of alcoholic wine would have been sinful because of what the Bible teaches about wine and what it represents. Christ would not have used a sinful representation to symbolize the purity of his blood. We use his own argument against him. It was grape juice.
The corrupted wine described as corrupted in Proverbs 23 would never be used to symbolize the precious blood of Christ. That is not a blasphemous view, but a Biblical view.

I know what you said, and what you say is blasphemous. Jesus did use real wine and not grape juice.

Your assertion that oinos has only one meaning is false.
It has two--both fermented and unfermented wine. Don't live in denial.

Oinos only has one meaning and it is wine.
Why did you not give the link to the Greek site that says oinos means unfermented wine?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The Frieberg Greek Lexicon defines 'oinos':

19509 oi=noj, ou, o` wine; (1) literally, of the juice of grapes, usually fermented ( LU 1.15); (2) figuratively, in apocalyptic symbolism; (a) as indicating the wrath of God outpoured in judgment (RV 14.10); (b) as an enticement to immorality, like a love potion (RV 17.2)

Usually fermented does not mean always fermented. Frieberg reveals that oinos was sometimes non fermented.

 

[Moriah]

Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came, eating freely and drinking wine — so they say, ‘Aha! A glutton and a drunkard! A friend of tax-collectors and sinners!’ Well, the proof of wisdom is in the actions it produces.”

Matthew 26:27
Also he took a cup of wine, made the b’rakhah, and gave it to them, saying, “All of you, drink from it!

Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I will not drink this ‘fruit of the vine’ again until the day I drink new wine with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

DHK tried to be deceptive by debating me in another thread (Fermented and Unfermented Wine thread) and claimed I said something I did not say during that debate. Then when I told him to quote where I said it, he went searching in another thread. He took something that I said that was about scriptures in the Complete Jewish Bible.

The Complete Jewish Bible says:

Matthew 26:27
Also he took a cup of wine, made the b’rakhah, and gave it to them, saying, “All of you, drink from it!

Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I will not drink this ‘fruit of the vine’ again until the day I drink new wine with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

DHK says, “The use of alcoholic wine would have been sinful because of what the Bible teaches about wine and what it represents. Christ would not have used a sinful representation to symbolize the purity of his blood. We use his own argument against him. It was grape juice. The corrupted wine described as corrupted in Proverbs 23 would never be used to symbolize the precious blood of Christ.”

I wonder what the Readers and translators of the Complete Jewish Bible think about what DHK believes. Maybe DHK should teach and correct them and show them the correct meaning of Matthew 26:27, and 29.

 

[DHK]

DHK tried to be deceptive by debating me in another thread (Fermented and Unfermented Wine thread) and claimed I said something I did not say during that debate.

You believe wine was used in the Lord's Supper and you believe it is fermented. We can prove that. To deny that is to be hypocritical.

Then when I told him to quote where I said it, he went searching in another thread. He took something that I said that was about scriptures in the Complete Jewish Bible.

You are wrong. I quoted from the same thread just a few posts earlier.

The Complete Jewish Bible says:

Matthew 26:27
Also he took a cup of wine, made the b’rakhah, and gave it to them, saying, “All of you, drink from it!

Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I will not drink this ‘fruit of the vine’ again until the day I drink new wine with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

DHK says, “The use of alcoholic wine would have been sinful because of what the Bible teaches about wine and what it represents. Christ would not have used a sinful representation to symbolize the purity of his blood.

And do you think he would use a symbol that represents false doctrine, sin, malice and wickedness to represent his blood. Shame on you!

We use his own argument against him. It was grape juice. The corrupted wine described as corrupted in Proverbs 23 would never be used to symbolize the precious blood of Christ.”

This works against you. What is described in Prov.23 is the fermentation process. Christ would never use fermented wine to symbolize his precious blood. Read on what it says about the consumption of such wine. What strange things do people see?

I wonder what the Readers and translators of the Complete Jewish Bible think about what DHK believes. Maybe DHK should teach and correct them and show them the correct meaning of Matthew 26:27, and 29.

I have the correct meaning. Do you?
They laid false accusations against Christ during his lifetime and at his death. Was Christ a drunkard? Is that what you believe? You believe Christ was a sinner? You believe the false accusations laid against Christ? You need to study your Bible.

 

[annsni]

And do you think he would use a symbol that represents false doctrine, sin, malice and wickedness to represent his blood. Shame on you!

This works against you. What is described in Prov.23 is the fermentation process. Christ would never use fermented wine to symbolize his precious blood. Read on what it says about the consumption of such wine. What strange things do people see?

And yet there is the wine described as a blessing from God:

Deut 7:13: "And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee."

Deut 11:14 "That I will give [you] the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil."

God also had wine in His house:

1 Chronicles 9:29 "[Some] of them also [were] appointed to oversee the vessels, and all the instruments of the sanctuary, and the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices."

Jeremiah 31:12 "Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all."

Psalm 104:14-15 "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart."

We also see in Scripture that wine was an acceptable offering to the Lord.

I also just saw this verse that speaks of wine mixed with water as a terrible thing!

Isaiah 1:22 "Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:"

Isaiah 16:10 speaks of a terrible time of no wine: "And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in [their] presses; I have made [their vintage] shouting to cease."

Wine does not represent sin and terrible things. It represents a great gift from the Lord that can be used for both good AND bad - just as other things can as well.

 

[Moriah]

And yet there is the wine described as a blessing from God:

Deut 7:13: "And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee."

Deut 11:14 "That I will give [you] the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil."

God also had wine in His house:

1 Chronicles 9:29 "[Some] of them also [were] appointed to oversee the vessels, and all the instruments of the sanctuary, and the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices."

Jeremiah 31:12 "Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all."

Psalm 104:14-15 "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart."

We also see in Scripture that wine was an acceptable offering to the Lord.

I also just saw this verse that speaks of wine mixed with water as a terrible thing!

Isaiah 1:22 "Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:"

Isaiah 16:10 speaks of a terrible time of no wine: "And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in [their] presses; I have made [their vintage] shouting to cease."

Wine does not represent sin and terrible things. It represents a great gift from the Lord that can be used for both good AND bad - just as other things can as well.

This is excellent.

 

[annsni]

This is excellent.

In just looking through the verses that speak of wine, I found this FASCINATING verse in Proverbs. I wonder how many would say oil is sinful as well!

Proverbs 21:17 "He that loveth pleasure [shall be] a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich."

 

[annsni]

This is excellent.

Thanks but looking at it, I see I misplaced a few of the verses! Oh well - we still get the idea, I think.

 

[Moriah]

In just looking through the verses that speak of wine, I found this FASCINATING verse in Proverbs. I wonder how many would say oil is sinful as well!

Proverbs 21:17 "He that loveth pleasure [shall be] a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich."

Good point, about the oil, which makes me think of this scripture, Proverbs 23:20 Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat.
This scripture talks against too much wine, not wine per se. In addition, do those here who are against wine stay away from people who eat a lot of meat? I do not think so.

 

[Moriah]

Thanks but looking at it, I see I misplaced a few of the verses! Oh well - we still get the idea, I think.

I think the scriptures you gave and the point you made show the purer side when one obeys and does not abuse wine.

 

[DHK]

And yet there is the wine described as a blessing from God:

Deut 7:13: "And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee."

And your point? The fruit of the vine (unfermented wine or the fruit of the vine more accurately) is what they would enjoy. Alcohol is not the harvest. Alcohol is not the increase of the land. That is not the context here; grapes are.

Deut 11:14 "That I will give [you] the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil."

Grapes are gathered in resulting in grape juice.

God also had wine in His house:

1 Chronicles 9:29 "[Some] of them also [were] appointed to oversee the vessels, and all the instruments of the sanctuary, and the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices."

This describes the Tabernacle, which would later become the Temple. Why would those things that represent defilement go into the Tabernacle or Temple. Leaven was not permitted.

Jeremiah 31:12 "Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all."

First, this is a prophetic verse speaking of the Millennial Kingdom. So it is out of context.
Second, it is again speaking of the produce of the land which is grapes, that is fresh grapes, not corrupted grapes.

Psalm 104:14-15 "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart."

Did wine make Noah's heart glad?
Did it make the heart of Lemuel (Prov.31) glad? No. In fact it was suggested that wine be given to the sick and dying;
Proverbs 31:6-7 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
--A merry heart indeed!!

We also see in Scripture that wine was an acceptable offering to the Lord.

We don't see the same things. You see what you want to see because you have a cultural bias with an English word that you subconsciously can only define one way.

I also just saw this verse that speaks of wine mixed with water as a terrible thing!

Isaiah 1:22 "Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:"

Could it not be that the common way of preserving any of their fruits, whether apples, grapes, etc. was via a thick syrup. Water, of course, would spoil the concentrate. If it was mixed with water, not only would you be able to make a proper amount of grape-juice, one wouldn't be able to make his fermented wine either. It would be spoiled.

Isaiah 16:10 speaks of a terrible time of no wine: "And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in [their] presses; I have made [their vintage] shouting to cease."

The treading of the grapes, comparable to bringing in the harvest on the plains, was a joyous time. It is a time of Thanksgiving, which you celebrate as a national holiday.

Wine does not represent sin and terrible things. It represents a great gift from the Lord that can be used for both good AND bad - just as other things can as well.

This you have wrong.
Wine represents in many places the wrath of God.
And in particular the leaven: false doctrine, sin, malice, wickedness.

 

[annsni]

And your point? The fruit of the vine (unfermented wine or the fruit of the vine more accurately) is what they would enjoy. Alcohol is not the harvest. Alcohol is not the increase of the land. That is not the context here; grapes are.

Grapes are gathered in resulting in grape juice.

Grape juice that was put into wineskins and allowed to ferment to become wine. This is the issue with the wineskins bursting. Grape juice does not cause wineskins to burst.

This describes the Tabernacle, which would later become the Temple. Why would those things that represent defilement go into the Tabernacle or Temple. Leaven was not permitted.

Which is exactly why it was wine that was to be brought to the temple - the best wine, not juice.

First, this is a prophetic verse speaking of the Millennial Kingdom. So it is out of context.
Second, it is again speaking of the produce of the land which is grapes, that is fresh grapes, not corrupted grapes.

The produce of the land - grapes - produces wine. It is speaking of wine, not juice.

Did wine make Noah's heart glad?
Did it make the heart of Lemuel (Prov.31) glad? No. In fact it was suggested that wine be given to the sick and dying;
Proverbs 31:6-7 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
--A merry heart indeed!!

Yes, it was wine that did all of these. It is wine that was misused and it would be wine that would gladden the heart of one who is perishing.

We don't see the same things. You see what you want to see because you have a cultural bias with an English word that you subconsciously can only define one way.

No, I read the Word of God with open eyes and see clearly that wine is wine, not juice.

Could it not be that the common way of preserving any of their fruits, whether apples, grapes, etc. was via a thick syrup. Water, of course, would spoil the concentrate. If it was mixed with water, not only would you be able to make a proper amount of grape-juice, one wouldn't be able to make his fermented wine either. It would be spoiled.

Wow - adding much to the Word of God? Adding water was not seen as a positive. If one wanted to make concentrate to preserve their fruits, would they consume the concentrate? I don't see that in Scripture at all.

The treading of the grapes, comparable to bringing in the harvest on the plains, was a joyous time. It is a time of Thanksgiving, which you celebrate as a national holiday. [/quote[

Yes - and it was celebrated with wine - new and old.

This you have wrong.
Wine represents in many places the wrath of God.
And in particular the leaven: false doctrine, sin, malice, wickedness.

Wine represents good and bad as does leaven. Remember that the kingdom of God is compared to leaven and I don't recall the kingdom of God being false doctrine, sin, malice or wickedness.

 

[The Biblicist]

Wine represents good and bad as does leaven. Remember that the kingdom of God is compared to leaven and I don't recall the kingdom of God being false doctrine, sin, malice or wickedness.

The only issue I take with you is this last statement. Jesus is speaking of the APPARENT kingdom of God on earth. The kingdom that is likened unto leaven is the PROFESSING kingdom of God consisting of TARES and "BIRDS" false teachers in so much that the true kingdom children are "hidden" and won't be revealed unto the coming of the Lord when the TARES are removed (vv. 43-44).

Notice that the two small parables of the leaven and mustard seed are placed in between the parable and its explanation. Why? Because they emphasize the UNNATURAL appearance of God's kingdom on earth. The LARGE appearance is due to false professors and false doctrine.

When you look at a mustard seed and compare it to the plant it produces then it is obvious that the size is deceptive and so is the size of the APPARENT KINGDOM of God on earth.

When you HIDE leaven in dough the dough takes on an UNNATURAL APPARENT SIZE and so does the APPEARNCE of the Kingdom of God on earth due to false tares and doctrine.

Now in this APPARENT kingdom of God the true children are "HID" like a treasure in a field and won't be revealed until a separation takes place in the APPARENT kingdom of God.

 

[annsni]

The only issue I take with you is this last statement. Jesus is speaking of the APPARENT kingdom of God on earth. The kingdom that is likened unto leaven is the PROFESSING kingdom of God consisting of TARES and "BIRDS" false teachers in so much that the true kingdom children are "hidden" and won't be revealed unto the coming of the Lord when the TARES are removed (vv. 43-44).

Notice that the two small parables of the leaven and mustard seed are placed in between the parable and its explanation. Why? Because they emphasize the UNNATURAL appearance of God's kingdom on earth. The LARGE appearance is due to false professors and false doctrine.

When you look at a mustard seed and compare it to the plant it produces then it is obvious that the size is deceptive and so is the size of the APPARENT KINGDOM of God on earth.

When you HIDE leaven in dough the dough takes on an UNNATURAL APPARENT SIZE and so does the APPEARNCE of the Kingdom of God on earth due to false tares and doctrine.

Now in this APPARENT kingdom of God the true children are "HID" like a treasure in a field and won't be revealed until a separation takes place in the APPARENT kingdom of God.

So the kingdom of heaven being like leaven is sin? I just don't read that in the passage.