Greetings JonC. Grace and hope to you.
I have started to go over your responses to other people to try and understand your position. Since the OP is about Dying Spiritually, I'm assuming that all your comments are an attempt to reach this end goal. My initial assumption is that you are attempting to challenge the notion that the spirit within man literally dies (whatever this might mean, like is gone, or taken back by God, etc).
I do assume however that you intend to take more of a position that spiritual death is seperation and alienation from God. If this is not the case, then correct me.
Now Adam being created in glory is not yet in Glory (the final Glory). In other words he is not yet what God intends him to be in the end. He is growing, progressing, and transforming from one glory to the next toward God's intended end for him.
I think this can be sound ground on the fact that Adam needed the tree of life to sustain his conditional-eternal life and also his communion with God in the garden to continue his perpetual glory toward Glory (his intended end). But everything I just described doesn't seem to describe a savior. Adam does still need to grow and be taught, but I don't think he needs saving from what God created him in.
I'm assuming that what you are tying to point out is that being in the Garden is the relationship (as opposed to Christ being in us). That is, in Adam's case, he was in the temple and in our case after the fall, Christ is in us. (which I contend was the plan all along, that is, Adam was to progress toward this eventually talking place).
You seem to want to focus on Adam before he was in the Garden (which represents communion). Then say, I think, that Adam before the Garden is like Adam after the Garden. (I'm guessing this is an attempt to deny a literal dying spiritually and simply say that Adam went back to the way he was pre-Garden communion...for whatever short of a millisecond that might have been).
If one is to take the casting out of Adam, that is separation from God, as what spiritual death is. Then verse like Ephesians 4:18 starts making more sense on the matter.
To end this long post...I do wonder how you might reconcile the spirit being corrupted?
Currently, in its fallen state, the conscience can become “seared” (1Tim 4:2), defiled (1Cor 8:7, Tit 1:15), weak (1Cor 8:7,10,12) and evil (Heb 10:22). But through the blood of Christ, the conscience can be purified from “dead works” (Heb 9:14), cleared (Acts 24:16, 1Tim 3:9) and can progress toward being good again (1Tim 1:5, 19) by the Spirit of grace.
What I have just written doesn't seem to be anything one could apply to Adam pre-Garden. Yet, it could be applied to Adam post Garden. So my point here is, one might contend that the spirit is not "dead" because spiritually dead means alienation and separation from God. But the Bible does tells us that the spirit of man, and his conscience, are affected in ways that are not just God being absent.
What do you think?
Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)
I have started to go over your responses to other people to try and understand your position. Since the OP is about Dying Spiritually, I'm assuming that all your comments are an attempt to reach this end goal. My initial assumption is that you are attempting to challenge the notion that the spirit within man literally dies (whatever this might mean, like is gone, or taken back by God, etc).
I do assume however that you intend to take more of a position that spiritual death is seperation and alienation from God. If this is not the case, then correct me.
In post #41 your wrote the above. I am going to translate this to my language and say that God created Adam in glory (small g) to be nurtured and developed unto Glory (big G). Which basically means that what we now know is our end goal in Christ as glorified man was God's intention for Adam all along (This is not a statement of Supralapsarianism). He simply took a detour into sin first (which God already knew would happen).
Now Adam being created in glory is not yet in Glory (the final Glory). In other words he is not yet what God intends him to be in the end. He is growing, progressing, and transforming from one glory to the next toward God's intended end for him.
Later in Post #41 you said, "Adam needed a Savior". I am trying to be cognizant of the direction I think you are going but I do have some objection to the use of the word "Savior" here. What I think you are trying to say is that Adam, being not yet glorified man, still needed the Son of God (for this world is for Him and to Him).
I think this can be sound ground on the fact that Adam needed the tree of life to sustain his conditional-eternal life and also his communion with God in the garden to continue his perpetual glory toward Glory (his intended end). But everything I just described doesn't seem to describe a savior. Adam does still need to grow and be taught, but I don't think he needs saving from what God created him in.
In post #43 you seem to try and point out the distinction that Adam was first created (Gen 2:7), then Eden created (Gen 2:8a) AND THEN was placed in the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:8b).
I'm assuming that what you are tying to point out is that being in the Garden is the relationship (as opposed to Christ being in us). That is, in Adam's case, he was in the temple and in our case after the fall, Christ is in us. (which I contend was the plan all along, that is, Adam was to progress toward this eventually talking place).
You seem to want to focus on Adam before he was in the Garden (which represents communion). Then say, I think, that Adam before the Garden is like Adam after the Garden. (I'm guessing this is an attempt to deny a literal dying spiritually and simply say that Adam went back to the way he was pre-Garden communion...for whatever short of a millisecond that might have been).
In post #50, I think you try and get to your point that dying spiritually isn't a literal dying off spiritually but more like a separation from God (in which I agree). I think that all must agree that nowhere in the Genesis account does it say that Adam's spirit literally died off or was taken back. But it does say he was cast out from the presence of God and was unable to then eat of the tree of life.
If one is to take the casting out of Adam, that is separation from God, as what spiritual death is. Then verse like Ephesians 4:18 starts making more sense on the matter.
Or Colossians
and Isaiah
If spiritual death is the alienation from God then one can avoid theologies that want to assert that the spirit is taken back after Adam's sin or that the spirit literally dies off (evaporates) when scripture seems to show this could not be the case.
To end this long post...I do wonder how you might reconcile the spirit being corrupted?
Currently, in its fallen state, the conscience can become “seared” (1Tim 4:2), defiled (1Cor 8:7, Tit 1:15), weak (1Cor 8:7,10,12) and evil (Heb 10:22). But through the blood of Christ, the conscience can be purified from “dead works” (Heb 9:14), cleared (Acts 24:16, 1Tim 3:9) and can progress toward being good again (1Tim 1:5, 19) by the Spirit of grace.
What I have just written doesn't seem to be anything one could apply to Adam pre-Garden. Yet, it could be applied to Adam post Garden. So my point here is, one might contend that the spirit is not "dead" because spiritually dead means alienation and separation from God. But the Bible does tells us that the spirit of man, and his conscience, are affected in ways that are not just God being absent.
What do you think?
Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)
