Each Eschatological view.

[1689Dave]

While I completely agree that the 1,000 years are not literal, but symbolic, I'm not quite sure about your "Pharisee" reference. I thought the millennial view (especially Dispensationalism) was introduced around 1830 by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren. Please elaborate.

The Jesuits launched the counter-reformation to deceive protestants into thinking the Antichrist is yet future. They (historic Protestants and some Catholics) believed the Papacy is the Antichrist from the 9th century on. This (the Jesuit lie to deceive them) became Dispensationalism after Darby and Schofield massaged it into that form.

But the Pharisees created Pre-Millennialism. Jesus refuted it in His gospel of the Kingdom as proclaimed in the gospels. But since the Kingdom is invisible and spiritual, all missed it looking for a physical political kingdom instead. So, many today side with the Pharisees expecting a literal physical kingdom of the future. BTW, the ancient church also condemned Premillennialism as heresy.

 

[37818]

While I completely agree that the 1,000 years are not literal, but symbolic, I'm not quite sure about your "Pharisee" reference. I thought the millennial view (especially Dispensationalism) was introduced around 1830 by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren. Please elaborate.

I personally have zero basis to interpet the millennium symbolically. Re: Revelation 20:4-6. For me a yet future literal millennium is as fundamental as Acts 1:11. [Now water immersion and the remembrance are symbolic.] Now my personal eschelogical view is per-millennial post-triblational pre-wrath rapture.

@Lodic,
Please step me through how you came to your symbolic millennium view.

 

[1689Dave]

I personally have zero basis to interpet the millennium symbolically. Re: Revelation 20:4-6. For me a yet future literal millennium is as fundamental as Acts 1:11. [Now water immersion and the remembrance are symbolic.] Now my personal eschelogical view is per-millennial post-triblational pre-wrath rapture.

@Lodic,
Please step me through how you came to your symbolic millennium view.

Use scripture to interpret scripture and it will clear things up for you. John says Revelation is a book of symbols. Have you seen any green horses or red dragons yet?

 

[Two Wings]

Anyone who agrees with Jesus is on a high horse, like it or not.

The Pharisees thought they walked with God too.

 

[1689Dave]

The Pharisees thought they walked with God too.

But they did not agree with Jesus. Do you believe the gospel of the Kingdom as He presented it? Show some of the verses from the gospels you agree with.

 

[Two Wings]

But they did not agree with Jesus. Do you believe the gospel of the Kingdom as He presented it? Show some of the verses from the gospels you agree with.

Sir … I recognize we have never been personally acquainted … but surely you can understand the answer to that basic question


Clearly your understanding of the Gospel is different from mine. What is also different is the way in which we would offer for consideration.

a man ought not think more of himself than he should. And everyone can learn something from everyone.

be humble and kind.

you may be precisely correct in your understanding but your hubris is repulsive.

you may not be precisely correct but your pride in your intellect may be an enormous block to your own sanctification.

I don’t know.

but I DO know your string of challenges here does not glorify anyone but yourself.

i will re read Jesus’ words about The Kingdom and see if there is any reason the 1000 years in Revelation cannot be a literal understanding … as we are able to see that Daniels 483 years was a literal fulfillment of THAT information regarding Christ.

let us not overlook the context from Creation … 6 days to Create. One to rest.

If a day is like 1000 years … and man was given 120 x 50 year periods … 6000 years of dominion over the planet.

1000 years remain for dominion by something/someone OTHER than mankind.

context of Creation (by Jesus) … reveals a 1000 year millennial reign before Satan is released only to be permanently “dispatched”

I try to be teachable in humility. Not my default mode. It isn’t yours either.

 

[37818]

[FYI, the gospel of the kingdom Jesus taught . . . .
Matthew 18:3, "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Mark 10:15, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
Luke 18:17, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."
John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."]

 

[1689Dave]

[FYI, the gospel of the kingdom Jesus taught . . . .
Matthew 18:3, "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Mark 10:15, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
Luke 18:17, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."
John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."]

How about the rest?

 

[37818]

[FYI, the gospel of the kingdom Jesus taught . . . .
Matthew 18:3, "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Mark 10:15, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
Luke 18:17, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."
John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."]

Notice:
". . . shall not enter . . . ."
". . . shall not enter . . . ."
". . . shall in no wise enter . . . ."
". . . cannot see . . . ."
Revelation 21:27, explains, ". . . And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. . . ." And this is after the millennium, after the Judgment.

 

[1689Dave]

Notice:
". . . shall not enter . . . ."
". . . shall not enter . . . ."
". . . shall in no wise enter . . . ."
". . . cannot see . . . ."
Revelation 21:27, explains, ". . . And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. . . ." And this is after the millennium, after the Judgment.

There is no millennium according to Jesus. Scripture never mentions one. It's a Pharisee tradition Jesus refuted.

 

[Two Wings]

How about the rest?

Because I want to continue to question my own stinking thinking, I searched The Word for passages where Jesus taught/described/presented “The Kingdom of God” ...

38 hits ... my search engine included OT and NT references. Those 37818 posted, too.

The closest I was able to find which would indicate there is NOT a literal 1000 year reign of earth by Jesus and His heirs was the exchange by Jesus & the Pharisees in Luke 17:20-21 ... that the Kingdom will not have signs to be observed. That the Kingdom is “in (their) midst” ... being Jesus Himself.

So ... how about a vector or two. Revelation 20 mentions a 1000 years 3 or 4 times ... Now, perhaps ... and I’m just throwing this out for (re)consideration ... perhaps the high frequency repetition of that phrase in a single chapter LITERALLY means 1000 years as we know a lap around the sun being a year.

 

[37818]

. . . the exchange by Jesus & the Pharisees in Luke 17:20-21 ... that the Kingdom will not have signs to be observed. That the Kingdom is “in (their) midst” ...

Also Jesus after Judas was sent out that night explained to His disciples, John 14:16-17, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. . . ."

 

[robycop3]

People must get used to the idea that history & science are ruled by Scripture, & they go hand-in-hand.
And we see prophecy LITERALLY fulfilled all over.

"Futurism" is not dispensationalism, simple as THAT! We see prophecy LITERALLY fulfilled up to the point where the next major event will either be the coming of the beast/antichrist to power, or the Jews building their new temple in Jerusalem.

A recent fulfillment was that of Isaiah 19:17 where the land of Judah would become a terror to the Egyptians. After the last unsuccessful war Egypt participated in against Israel, they quaked in their fezzes every time a Jew racked his Uzi. Now, this has faded to the point where Israel & Egypt signed an economic agreement last year to the benefit of both nations.

Others are still being fulfilled, such as the trampling underfoot of Jerusalem by gentiles. J is home of the 2nd-holiest site in Islam, as well as several Christian sites visited daily by gentiles. And there are thousands of Palestinians living in J.

All the prophecies will be fulfilled literally in God's time.

 

[37818]

There is a major problem for those who have the notion "there is no millennium."
Revelation 20:2-7.
Revelation 22:19, ". . . And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the tree of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. . . ."

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus refuted all but Amillennialism in the gospels. But only the born again can see the Kingdom so this presents a problem.

he was premil though, as were the Apostles!

 

[robycop3]

"Thousand years " is plainly written in several verses.

 

[Stephen Green]

"Thousand years " is plainly written in several verses.

The thousand years provides a challenge. On the one hand, as you've said, it's written clearly in Revelation. On the other hand, if it hasn't happened yet, then the White Throne Judgment hasn't happened yet. If the White Throne Judgment hasn't happened yet, then the Resurrection hasn't happened yet. But if the Resurrection hasn't happened yet, then there are no saints in heaven, and none of the faithful departed have set foot in heaven yet. But that directly contradicts the earliest of Church teaching.

It's a noodle-scratcher for sure.

 

[Lodic]

I personally have zero basis to interpet the millennium symbolically. Re: Revelation 20:4-6. For me a yet future literal millennium is as fundamental as Acts 1:11. [Now water immersion and the remembrance are symbolic.] Now my personal eschelogical view is per-millennial post-triblational pre-wrath rapture.

@Lodic,
Please step me through how you came to your symbolic millennium view.

Certainly, Brother. I've always believed that Revelation contains a lot of symbolism, even when I was a Dispensationalist. Even during that time, I took the view that 1,000 was probably not literal just as we don't believe that God only owns the cattle on 1,000 hills. The "symbolic millennium" view became more solidified as I moved into the Partial Preterist view. Outside of Revelation 20, there are no references to this 1,000 years. I believe this 1,000 years symbolizes a long period of time that Satan's power was limited until the Gospel could spread. Hope that answered your question.

 

[37818]

. . . if the Resurrection hasn't happened yet, then there are no saints in heaven, and none of the faithful departed have set foot in heaven yet.

Absolutely false. Believers to this day go to Heaven when they physically die. 2 Corinthians 5:8, is where the Apostle Paul wrote, ". . . We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. . . ."

 

[Lodic]

The Jesuits launched the counter-reformation to deceive protestants into thinking the Antichrist is yet future. They (historic Protestants and some Catholics) believed the Papacy is the Antichrist from the 9th century on. This (the Jesuit lie to deceive them) became Dispensationalism after Darby and Schofield massaged it into that form.

But the Pharisees created Pre-Millennialism. Jesus refuted it in His gospel of the Kingdom as proclaimed in the gospels. But since the Kingdom is invisible and spiritual, all missed it looking for a physical political kingdom instead. So, many today side with the Pharisees expecting a literal physical kingdom of the future. BTW, the ancient church also condemned Premillennialism as heresy.

Thank you. If I may ask, what do you make of Revelation 20:2-10, where "1,000 years" appears six times?