Each Eschatological view.

[Lodic]

People must get used to the idea that history & science are ruled by Scripture, & they go hand-in-hand.
And we see prophecy LITERALLY fulfilled all over.

"Futurism" is not dispensationalism, simple as THAT! We see prophecy LITERALLY fulfilled up to the point where the next major event will either be the coming of the beast/antichrist to power, or the Jews building their new temple in Jerusalem.

A recent fulfillment was that of Isaiah 19:17 where the land of Judah would become a terror to the Egyptians. After the last unsuccessful war Egypt participated in against Israel, they quaked in their fezzes every time a Jew racked his Uzi. Now, this has faded to the point where Israel & Egypt signed an economic agreement last year to the benefit of both nations.

Others are still being fulfilled, such as the trampling underfoot of Jerusalem by gentiles. J is home of the 2nd-holiest site in Islam, as well as several Christian sites visited daily by gentiles. And there are thousands of Palestinians living in J.

All the prophecies will be fulfilled literally in God's time.

I see your point regarding "futurism" and dispensationalism. However, while all futurist views are not dispensationalist, all dispensationalists are futurists. That prophecy from Isaiah 19 was fulfilled in Isaiah 20:1-6.

 

[37818]

Certainly, Brother. I've always believed that Revelation contains a lot of symbolism, even when I was a Dispensationalist. Even during that time, I took the view that 1,000 was probably not literal just as we don't believe that God only owns the cattle on 1,000 hills. The "symbolic millennium" view became more solidified as I moved into the Partial Preterist view. Outside of Revelation 20, there are no references to this 1,000 years. I believe this 1,000 years symbolizes a long period of time that Satan's power was limited until the Gospel could spread. Hope that answered your question.

Well you only told me you never really ever believed it was an actual 1000 years. How is that supposed to convince me it isn't an actual future thousand years? Ever since I have been a Christian and the Baptist churches that I have joined premillennialism was a part of the statements of faith. So simply put, not to be premillennial would be contrary to the Biblical faith. I was won to Christ as my Savior in 1962. I Joined that church in 1970.

 

[George Antonios]

Jesus refuted all but Amillennialism in the gospels. But only the born again can see the Kingdom so this presents a problem.

That Christ emphasized the spiritual aspect of the kingdom to men who refused to repent in no way amounts to a negation of the physical aspect of the kingdom.
The Lord also oft spoke of the physical aspect.
Please report both.

 

[robycop3]

The thousand years provides a challenge. On the one hand, as you've said, it's written clearly in Revelation. On the other hand, if it hasn't happened yet, then the White Throne Judgment hasn't happened yet. If the White Throne Judgment hasn't happened yet, then the Resurrection hasn't happened yet. But if the Resurrection hasn't happened yet, then there are no saints in heaven, and none of the faithful departed have set foot in heaven yet. But that directly contradicts the earliest of Church teaching.

It's a noodle-scratcher for sure.

Well, actually, the souls of the dead saints are in the paradise area of hades right now.

 

[robycop3]

I see your point regarding "futurism" and dispensationalism. However, while all futurist views are not dispensationalist, all dispensationalists are futurists. That prophecy from Isaiah 19 was fulfilled in Isaiah 20:1-6.

Actually, it was fulfilled soon after Egypt fought its last unsuccessful battla against Israel, so for awhile, every time a Jew racked his Uzi, the Egyptians shook in their fezzes. That tension eased, & last year Israel & Egypt signed an economic deal beneficial to both nations.

But I'm futurist for the simple & obvious reason that the prophesied eschatological events haven't yet occurred.

 

[37818]

Well, actually, the souls of the dead saints are in the paradise area of hades right now.

Well, I do not think so. I am of the persuasion when Jesus ascended to Heaven to be mediator, He also transferred Paradise to the third Heaven. Ephesians 4:8. Where Paradise is now, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

 

[Lodic]

Well you only told me you never really ever believed it was an actual 1000 years. How is that supposed to convince me it isn't an actual future thousand years? Ever since I have been a Christian and the Baptist churches that I have joined premillennialism was a part of the statements of faith. So simply put, not to be premillennial would be contrary to the Biblical faith. I was won to Christ as my Savior in 1962. I Joined that church in 1970.

My mistake, Brother. I see what you are getting at (now that you've patiently spelled it out to me). I believe 1,000 years to be symbolic because so much of Revelation is also symbolic. This is a large round number, which stands for an indefinite period. To me, it's significant that this 1,000 years is absent from the entire rest of the Bible. Yet, entire doctrines are built from this phrase that appears 6 times in one chapter.

2 Peter 3:8 tells us that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and vice versa. Common sense tells us this is not a literal statement. It simply describes time from God's perspective. Technically speaking, I believe one could be pre-millennial and still not believe in a literal 1,000 years. The point is the events, not the specific length of time.

 

[Lodic]

Actually, it was fulfilled soon after Egypt fought its last unsuccessful battla against Israel, so for awhile, every time a Jew racked his Uzi, the Egyptians shook in their fezzes. That tension eased, & last year Israel & Egypt signed an economic deal beneficial to both nations.

But I'm futurist for the simple & obvious reason that the prophesied eschatological events haven't yet occurred.

I still hold to my original statement regarding when that was fulfilled. You are a futurist for the same reason that I am a preterist - because it makes more sense to you. I was a Dispensationalist for about 30 years. I realized the error of dispensationalism during the Persian Gulf War, and I started digging deeper into the prophetic scriptures. (I had not realized so much of the Bible was about prophecy.) That was how I started on the road that led me to Partial Preterism.

If I may ask, have you ever been a Dispensationalist? If so, what convinced you of its errors? Did your church push any particular view, or have your views come as a result of a lot of personal study?

 

[37818]

My mistake, Brother. I see what you are getting at (now that you've patiently spelled it out to me). I believe 1,000 years to be symbolic because so much of Revelation is also symbolic. This is a large round number, which stands for an indefinite period. To me, it's significant that this 1,000 years is absent from the entire rest of the Bible. Yet, entire doctrines are built from this phrase that appears 6 times in one chapter.

2 Peter 3:8 tells us that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and vice versa. Common sense tells us this is not a literal statement. It simply describes time from God's perspective. Technically speaking, I believe one could be pre-millennial and still not believe in a literal 1,000 years. The point is the events, not the specific length of time.

Well, first thank you for being patient with me on this. Now there are a number of issues to this. That book of Revelation is without a doubt a matter of interpertation. My study of that book is on going. My understanding is the symbolism is explained or readily understandable, Revelation 1:20 for an example. Revelation 3:14, by Revelation 1:5 and Colossians 1:18 as another example. The 1000 years are explicit, Revelation 20:2-7. Malachi 4:3 for Revelation 20:9. And there is much more. The more I study this the more I am convinced.

 

[Dave G]

I thought the millennial view (especially Dispensationalism) was introduced around 1830 by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren. Please elaborate.

Apologies for replying, but I think you might find this informative:

"Dispensationalism", which is what I was taught growing up in IFB and IB circles, is said to have ( largely ) been developed by John Nelson Darby around 1830.
It has been popularized in the Western churches from about the last 150 years or so through men like C.I. Scofield and Harry Ironside.

Based on what I was taught, it takes all the Scriptural passages regarding the end times and lays them out flat...
with a "pre-Tribulational" ( at the very beginning of the 70th "week" of Daniel ) catching away of all of God's saints,
followed by a 7 year period ( half of it peaceful, the last half progressively bad to the point of exceedingly harsh ) of rule by Anti-Christ, who will persecute those who come to Christ during that time period ( while the rest are with the Lord in Heaven ),
followed by the Lord touching down on the Mount of Olives at the end, casting the beast ( Anti-Christ ) and the false prophet into Hell and Satan into chains and ruling from Jerusalem for a literal 1,000 years.

But the millennial view has been around a lot longer than Darby's version of it, which makes the Lord essentially "return" twice...
the first time in the clouds, and the final time bodily after 7 years.

 

[37818]

2 Peter 3:7-13 is a telescopic view. As also John 5 - John 6 of Revelation 20 - Revelation 21. Revelation is giving details. John 6:44, ". . . and I will raise him up at the last day. . . ."

 

[Dave G]

If I may ask, have you ever been a Dispensationalist?

I cannot answer for roby, of course,
but yes, I was taught that view growing up in Independent Baptist churches from the day that I first heard the word of God and believed it in 1978.

If so, what convinced you of its errors?

The Scriptures and careful ( and constant ) study of them over the past 18 years or so.

Did your church push any particular view, or have your views come as a result of a lot of personal study?

See above.

 

[37818]

Some prophecies are distant, others are details. Two detail prophecies are like mountains. Looking from distance they seem together. Two resurrections, first separates the second by the millennium and after the second, the Judgment after it the final New Heaven and New Earth.

 

[1689Dave]

Well you only told me you never really ever believed it was an actual 1000 years. How is that supposed to convince me it isn't an actual future thousand years? Ever since I have been a Christian and the Baptist churches that I have joined premillennialism was a part of the statements of faith. So simply put, not to be premillennial would be contrary to the Biblical faith. I was won to Christ as my Savior in 1962. I Joined that church in 1970.

You assume John's 1000 years are the same as the Pharisee's Premillennialism. They are not. You are in fact dragging a false doctrine scripture NEVER mentions into Revelation despite God's warning against doing so. 1000 in the OT = a large number of anything in common usage. Besides, how can it be the kingdom when Satan attacks the kingdom when the 1000 years end?

 

[1689Dave]

Thank you. If I may ask, what do you make of Revelation 20:2-10, where "1,000 years" appears six times?

The biggest mistake people have ever made when interpreting Revelation 20 is to assume just because John uses the symbolic number 1000, which means "a large quantity" in the Old Testament, he is referring to the Pharisees Premillennial doctrine also using the number 1000 for its duration. Scripture NEVER mentions their millennium. And Jesus totally destroyed it in the gospels teaching the gospel of the kingdom. Moreover, the early church condemned Premillennialism as heresy at the Council of Ephesus. Premillennialists violate God's warning by adding Pharisee ideas to Revelation.

 

[1689Dave]

Some prophecies are distant, others are details. Two detail prophecies are like mountains. Looking from distance they seem together. Two resurrections, first separates the second by the millennium and after the second, the Judgment after it the final New Heaven and New Earth.

The two resurrections happen on the last day at the same time according to Jesus.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

 

[Lodic]

Apologies for replying, but I think you might find this informative:

"Dispensationalism", which is what I was taught growing up in IFB and IB circles, is said to have ( largely ) been developed by John Nelson Darby around 1830.
It has been popularized in the Western churches from about the last 150 years or so through men like C.I. Scofield and Harry Ironside.

Based on what I was taught, it takes all the Scriptural passages regarding the end times and lays them out flat...
with a "pre-Tribulational" ( at the very beginning of the 70th "week" of Daniel ) catching away of all of God's saints,
followed by a 7 year period ( half of it peaceful, the last half progressively bad to the point of exceedingly harsh ) of rule by Anti-Christ, who will persecute those who come to Christ during that time period ( while the rest are with the Lord in Heaven ),
followed by the Lord touching down on the Mount of Olives at the end, casting the beast ( Anti-Christ ) and the false prophet into Hell and Satan into chains and ruling from Jerusalem for a literal 1,000 years.

But the millennial view has been around a lot longer than Darby's version of it, which makes the Lord essentially "return" twice...
the first time in the clouds, and the final time bodily after 7 years.

No apologies necessary. I appreciate your jumping in. I had assumed the millennial view started with Dispensationalism. Thank you for the correction.

 

[Lodic]

I cannot answer for roby, of course,
but yes, I was taught that view growing up in Independent Baptist churches from the day that I first heard the word of God and believed it in 1978.

The Scriptures and careful ( and constant ) study of them over the past 18 years or so.

See above.

Again, thank you for jumping in. It's good to know what led people to the views they hold. I was saved in 1978, and the only "end times" teachings I was taught for many years was Dispensationalism. I never heard the term "eschatology" until the early 90s, which is when I learned there were other views. I only learned of the Jewish Wars and the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem around 2010. Just that knowledge opened my eyes to much deeper study in eschatology.

 

[Two Wings]

And Jesus totally destroyed it in the gospels teaching the gospel of the kingdom.

Like JonC and his cv vax statements, you've incessantly repeated this phrase in one form or another.

help a brother out, will ya? scripture reference and the context you understand it to be ... obviously we know the outcome (stated above 957 times this week) ... but how do you arrive at this?

I'm willing to be corrected. I'd also accepted a pre-trib church rapture & "immanence" of Jesus' Return for most of my born again life because that is what I was taught.

Where does Jesus say there is no 1000 year period after His Return ... between His Return/Wrath of The Lamb and the eternal "dispatching" of Satan/New Jerusalem (Creation)

I know Jesus said "I've told you all things in advance" ... so that day will not over take you. What day? His Return ... but John clearly indicates there is a period (1000 years ... or, as you say, a really long time/lotta years) Christ reigns on His earth in post-Armaggedon before the New Jerusalem "I make all things new."

 

[Mikey]

Jesus refuted all but Amillennialism in the gospels. But only the born again can see the Kingdom so this presents a problem.