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Each Eschatological view.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” Revelation 20:5–6 (KJV 1900)
So if the resurrection happens when the 1000 years end, Premillennialist know something only the Father is supposed to know. When the last day occurs! Proving their position is false. Also, rapture buffs would know the end to be 1007 years after the pre-trib rapture begins.
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” Mark 13:32 (KJV 1900)
So if the resurrection happens when the 1000 years end, Premillennialist know something only the Father is supposed to know. When the last day occurs! Proving their position is false. Also, rapture buffs would know the end to be 1007 years after the pre-trib rapture begins.
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” Mark 13:32 (KJV 1900)
Well, actually, we don't know where either paradise or the rest of hades is right now. As they're spirit worlds, they could be right among us.
The only dispensations I believe in are the antediluvian one, the one between the flood & the Old Covenant, the Old Covenant, the New Covenant(present age) & that of the world to come.
You're not stupid. You should be able to see that a great many eschatological prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. And the downfall of partial preterism is the following words of Jesus: Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
If the great trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue! And remember, He also warned against those who say He came in secret!
Matt. 24:26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
And, of course, there's not yet been any beast/antichrist, no mark of the beast, no AOD, etc.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
What you said about the dispensations makes perfect sense, and I totally agree with you on that.
The "sign of the Son of Man" did appear immediately after (at the end of) the tribulation when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. You see the Great Tribulation as a worldwide event, where I see it as a localized event. Again, the events of AD 70 fit perfectly with Christ's prophecies. Finally, Nero / the Roman Empire was the Beast; the "mark" was about those who aligned themselves with Rome; the AOD was when the Roman armies invaded Jerusalem and desecrated the temple.
Having said all that, I do appreciate how we can discuss our different views. Of course our discussions wind up with a lot of each of us repeating the same points over and over, but that's okay. I know that you are a pretty smart guy, and you are quite the expert on history. You do keep me on my toes, but I am fully convinced of the Partial Preterist view. It all comes down to how we interpret the Scriptures, doesn't it?
37818
Well-Known Member
So 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 is meaningless?
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37818
Well-Known Member
Comes across to me as being anti Pre-Millennial.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Imposing an interpertation not agreed upon.
Mikey
Active Member
I didn't get that from watching it. Which part did you see as being anti premillennialism?
He's obviously comes froma postmil view point but he made positive comments on both amil and premil views.
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37818
Well-Known Member
The issue made about the difficulty of understanding the symbolism of Revelation from its ties to OT imagery is classic anti permimillennialism.
Mikey
Active Member
Ok. I understood that that it was a description of the Book of Revelation, which i agree is a book full of imagery and symbols. He also praised premil for being grounded rather than like amil which perhaps is more "spiritual".
He's obviously comes froma postmil view point but he made positive comments on both amil and premil views
37818
Well-Known Member
Revelation 20:2-3, ". . . And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, . . ." This has never yet happened. Pure and simple.
Good, as they're clearly shown in Scripture.
Well, actually, according to the following words of Jesus, it did NOT-Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Nor has the great cosmic event of V29 occur. Do you know what "the powers of the heavens" are? They're the motions of the sun, moon, & planets as seen from earth. Obviously, that won't be a local event.
"All the tribes of the earth" are not local, and neither is the shaking of the powers of the heavens.
Only the destruction of J & the temple. The rest didn't happen then.
NO! Nero didn't meet many of the Scriptural criteria for the beast. He was never in Jerusalem in his life, had no miracle-working false prophet as a deputy, did not overthrow 3 other rulers to become Caesar, issued no mark of the beast, and died insteada being cast alive into hell.
Huh-uh! The mark will be in the right hand or forehead & will be physical. There was no interference with commerce then.
Nupe! remember, jesus said it was spoken of by daniel. And that AOD was when the Seleucid ruler of Judea at the time, Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus in the temple in the 160s AD & sacrificed a pig upon the altar. And Paul mentions in 2 Thess. 2:4 that the man of sin shall sit in the temple & declare himself God. Not even Antiochus did that. Nor did anyone else before that temple was destroyed. Also Rev. 13 mentions the beast's statue which the false prophet will supernaturally cause to speak.
Sorry, Sir; those events simply haven't yet occurred! To be the fulfillment of prophecy, they MUST fit that prophecy TO THE LETTER, without the slightest exception.
The Scriptures are actually pretty plain, with symbolism being easily recognized as such. But Jesus' Olivet Discourse is very-literal, as is most of Revelation. Otherwise, men could make it say anything they wished.
As for partial preterism, if the great trib has already occurred, then the physical, visible, super-glorious return of Jesus is long-overdue! !
Agreed, as is easily-proven by the prevalence of sin worldwide since before Rev was written.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Not quite sure of your point. Several of us on this thread have very different views of eschatology. Isn't the point of this thread to discuss those different views? From my Preterist perspective, I could say that the "futurist" views are imposed because I don't agree with them.
37818
Well-Known Member
The issue is not that different interpertations exist. In this case I objected against your using what is supposed as it's own proof of what is being supposed. How was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, ". . . great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: . . ."?
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Jesus used "prophetic hyperbole" in Matthew 24:29. You find similar phrases in Ezekiel 5:9, Isaiah 13:9-10, etc. Heavenly bodies often symbolize earthly rulers and governments. Obviously the events of AD 70 fulfilled these local events.
I am assuming the "tribes of the earth" quote is from Revelation 1:7. This is actually one of passages I use to prove that Revelation was written before Jerusalem's destruction (probably 66-68 AD). The "tribes" refers to the Jews, and "the earth" to Judah. As I mentioned earlier, the "powers of the heavens" is symbolic language for earthly rulers.
The Beast was not just Nero, but also Rome. As such, the Beast was very present in Jerusalem.
Just as the seal of the 144,000 was not a physical mark, neither was the mark of the beast. Did they literally have names written on their foreheads? Of course not. In Revelation 13:16-17, only those Jews who aligned with the Old Covenant system were "marked" for access into the Temple.
You are correct in that those prophecies MUST be fulfilled to the letter with no exceptions. You are absolutely correct regarding Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who was only a foreshadow of the AOD. This is precisely what happened. This is why "let the reader understand" is included in the Olivet Discourse. The reader of the prophecy (Daniel 9:27) is to understand what is happening before his eyes. Gabriel told Daniel that "He (Christ) will make a firm covenant with many" which would be broken "in the middle of the week" (when He was crucified). The "one who makes desolate" is the same as the "Man of Sin" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 - Nero. Nero didn't need to physically be there, as they set up emperor worship.
I will admit that I don't understand some of the imagery in Revelation 13, but I will take a stab at it. The beast coming up out of the earth (v. 11) is the False Prophet, who I believe was Apostate Israel. The "fire from Heaven" was most likely firebrands that the Roman army used to attack Jerusalem. The "image of the Beast" probably refers to Vespasian's image that was displayed by the Romans. The Beast (Rome) was "killed" by Nero's suicide, and "came back to life" under Vespasian's rule.
Yes, the Scriptures are very plain, and symbolism is easily recognized as such. It is for that very reason I wonder why you don't see the symbolism that is in the Olivet Discourse. Beyond that, I really don't get how you could see most of Revelation as literal.
The Partial Preterist view regarding the Great Tribulation is that is was a local event. Jesus "returned" in judgment on Israel in AD 70, but His actual 2nd Coming is still in our future. (At least we can agree upon that last part).
37818
Well-Known Member
No. Isaiah 13:9-10, Matthew 24:29-31 has not yet happened.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The nations are the gentiles who God saves as promised to Abraham. Satan is bound by the gospel in this respect. It never says he is out of commission. God uses him every day to inflict his wrath on sinners. Even in your Pharisee version of the kingdom, Satan is actively killing sinners.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Sorry about that, Brother. I don't always make myself clear. In my view, the Great Tribulation was the Jewish Wars (AD 66-70). In Matthew 24:27, Jesus said His coming will be just as lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west. Historically, the Roman armies advanced from east to west. Verse 28 speaks of massive slaughter, which happened when the Roman armies invaded Jerusalem in AD 70. Verse 29 quotes Isaiah 13:10, which was symbolic language used to describe judgment against Babylon. These 1st Century Jews were familiar with this apocalyptic language, they would not take what was meant as symbolic as literal. This would be like expecting felines and canines to fall from the sky if someone told us it's raining cats and dogs.
Then we come to Matthew 24:30, where the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. A sign is different from the object is points to. "All the tribes of the earth will mourn" points to Israel mourning over their judgment.
The use of "this generation" always means the generation He is speaking to. It never means some future generation. He tells His 1st Century audience "when you (not they) see all these things...". This included the "coming of the Son of Man". This does not necessarily mean the literal coming of Christ, but a "coming" in judgment. We find apocalyptic language used many times when God "came" in judgment (Isaiah 13:10-13, 34:3-5; Ezekiel 32:2, 7-8; Joel 3:15-16, etc.). The "nor ever shall happen again" language is hyperbole. We see it in Ezekiel 5:8-9. In 2 Kings 21:8, God says that He will never again make Israel wander from the land He gave their ancestors. Yet, the 10 northern tribes were taken captive, never to return. It's all contextual.
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