Easter

roby

never said we were under the law. but why abandon the history of our faith to take on gentile traditions. seems to me that just the meer mention of observing anything in the ot gets everybody scared of following false doctrine and not living by grace. if gentile traditions were incorporated why not at least acknowledge the judaic roots of our faith?

the reference you made to baptist/pentecostal had nothing to do with my post. pls refrain from personel assasination in a christian exchange.

If you want to know the exact tenents of my faith this is not the thread for such a dialogue. however i have know problem discussing it with anyone.

now i am stating in the previous post that the study of our historical holy days past down thru judaic shadows and types can aide us in some of our topics. never hurts to remind one self of what was fulfilled from the ot that we now walk in this grace. with that premise maybe we won't era so much with things creeping into the church.

Acts 17:10-11
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
this was all i was sugesting that we look into the meaning of the day from the scripture and not commentary.

let our words be seasoned with grace since we live in it.

 

First, as a Christian, I have a D-U-T-Y, as does every other Christian, to attack any false doctrine whenever & wherever we find it. And many of the doctrines of the Pentecostals come under that gun. I WILL NOT refrain from attacking what I KNOW are false doctrines! God willing, I'll continue to assassinate cults & false doctrines as He gives me opportunity. And Pentecostalism is one of them, as it strays from Scripture in many aspects.

That being said...

Nothing wrong about learning about the holy days & observances God gave to Israel, and how much the Jews have ADDED to them over the years. We must NEVER forget that WE are under NO obligation to keep them.

OTOH, there's nothing wrong with observing Easter as RESURRECTION DAY.

Speaking of searching the Scriptures, is there any Scriptural basis for:

Modalism
Regenerative Baptism
baby-sprinkling
Annihilationism
King James Onlyism
Speaking in tongues as a necessary condition of salvation


Those five should be a good start.

BTW, do YOU justify Easter in Acts 12:4?

 

NO! (well maybe the chocolate eggs and bunnies part).

I got two chocolate bunnies at the dollar store last week but only one made it home.



HankD

 

Rob

is a messianic Jew a christian? And are they under the law it they keep the OT timetable to calculate Passover? If man changed the formula by which the day comes to us, is M Right wrong or indifferent? Now I am not a member of a cult and do come against all false doctrine. Including, hate, anger, bitterness. Can any body here discuss a topic without fighting it is unfair to everyone to take part of a post and disregard everything else. with that being said did the Church fathers have the authority from God to change the day. And is that change how we now call it Easter as apposed to Passover?

 

Time Like This: is a messianic Jew a christian?

Yes, if he/she believes in JESUS CHRIST as Lord, Savior from sin, Messiah, and God along with His Father Yahweh & the Holy Spirit, who became a man & died to take the penalty for OUR sins, & was resurrected into His full glory and power 3 days later.


And are they under the law it they keep the OT timetable to calculate Passover?

They were given the Passover ordinances to be followed THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS. Those rules are to be applied by any gentile wishing to observe Passover. In other words, if a gentile observes Passover, it's to be by God's same rules for Israel. But the gentile isn't required to observe Passover at all.


If man changed the formula by which the day comes to us, is M Right wrong or indifferent?

Wrong. Please compare the Passover as observed by many Jews today as opposed to God's rules in Exodus 12.
However, one practice observed in Jesus' day that was not in the original ordinances, but not condemned by Jesus was/is to purchase the paschal lamb already prepared by a commercial butcher, save for cooking it.

There's no formula for calculating the beginning of Passover week...it's an ESTABLISHED DATE. It begins the evening of the 14th of Abib(or however a given group of Jews spells or pronounces it) of the Jewish calendar. bearing in mind that the Jews reckon the new day beginning at sunset, rather than at midnight as most of us do.


Now I am not a member of a cult and do come against all false doctrine. Including, hate, anger, bitterness. Can any body here discuss a topic without fighting it is unfair to everyone to take part of a post and disregard everything else.

Kewl...but I'm a fighter, contending for the faith, used to opposing...and WINNING...against false doctrines and cults. And there are many non-Scriptural thinga against Pentecostal.


with that being said did the Church fathers have the authority from God to change the day. And is that change how we now call it Easter as apposed to Passover?

Easter and Passover have NEVER been the same observance. The followers of Judaism don't recognize Jesus' resurrection & hence haven't observed any Resurrection Day. OTOH, Passover was given ONLY TO ISRAEL, and today's Jews are the only clearly-identifiable Israelites there are.(The others still exist; they've lost their national identity for now...but GOD clearly states they'll be restored. And, same as in the old nation of Israel, this will include the non-Israelis living among them.)

The early Catholic Church made the present formula for determining the date of Easter for any given year in a manner that would NEVER have it falling upon the paschal meal day. We must remember that many of the early Christians blamed the entire Jewish people for murdering Jesus, and they despised them even more for rejecting Him as Messiah. They wanted to get away as far as possible from the Jewish observances, while having observances of their own, especially Communion. Now, while JESUS didn't set any special date or season for Communion, He initiated it at the paschal meal, and many Christians wanted to observe it in that season, but not on the same date as the beginning of Passover. Also, about 155 AD, some Christians had begin to observe Resurrection Day on the 4th day of Passover.

"Good Friday" is a mistake. Careful reading of the Scriptures will show you that Jesus ate the paschal meal & was crucified on TUESDAY, spending Wed, Thu, Fri.(3 nights, 3 days) in the tomb, being resurrected shortly after the beginning of Saturday at sunset. The thing that throws people off is the mention of the HIGH SABBATH in Scripture, which began at sunset the day Jesus was crucified. Again, careful reading of Scripture, along with knowing Jewish customs and observances will show you that the Jews called(and still call) any special observance day a HIGH SABBATH, regardless of what day of the week it falls upon, with all the rules of the regular weekly Sabbath being followed, along with any special rules for that given observance. The High Sabbath mentioned in the crucifixion accounts is the first of the two HOLY CONVOCATIONS during Passover Week mentioned in Exodus 12:16. Remember, Tuesday had begun the previous sunset, with the Jews eating the paschal meal that eve, with the rest of that night and day being the PREPARATION DAY(mentioned in Scripture) for the convocation, with all mundane work being done as far ahead as possible, so on the actual Convocation Day, only essential work such as caring for the ill, and for livestock, & the serving of meals was done.(The meals had been prepared as much as possible the previous day.)

Hope this clears up some of the misunderstanding about the time Jesus spent in the tomb, and the fact that Passover and Easter were NEVER the same observance.

 

We must bear in mind that most people don't know or care about the heathen sources for Christmas, and espacially Easter. The symbolism of many observances changes over time. For example, the swastika is today a nearly-universal symbol for EVIL, and many people hold certain depictions of the eagle as a symbol of evil. But for thousands of years the swastika was a good-luck symbol, while the eagle as depicted by the Romans was a symbol of power. It took only two men-Hitler & Mussolini-to change those symbols into symbols of evil. If a high school student wears a shirt with a swastika on it & subsequently ends up in court, would any judge or jury be swayed by the argument that " this reliable encyclopedia PROVES the swastika was a GOOD LUCK SYMBOL for almost 3000 years"? Thus, a "good" symbol is permanently polluted by a little less than 7 years of history.

Thus, most people now believe that Easter, when observed as Resurrection Day, is a good thing, and we really have no room to criticize it except for to point oit its pagan beginnings.

Also, we must bear in mind that almost every old pagan religion has an important personage among its legends who died & was resurrected or was reincarnated into a better being.

 

Agree fully with you Robycop3 “most people don’t know or care”. But we must ask if God cares. He tells us early on His thinking on such things. God is above all, and there is none beside Him. Those you mention are of men, from their minds. Humans have a tendency to change their minds on some things that are of emotional origins. But when they involve the heart, with the mind, and worship a God on a certain day (Christmas), and a Goddess in the Springtime (Easter), and they declare we will not change this day, nor the “light” of Spring forever, they meant it.

Perhaps this is a little dramatic, but I see truth in it. These idol worshippers of old had the zeal, the belief and the faith, and would not change either of their sacred Holy Days. They told the “church” we will join you, but only on the condition that you let us bring into your church our beloved God and Goddess. We will do as you ask and do all of your rites, if you will do just two things for us. You must allow your people to worship their God on the same day that we worship ours. It is his birthday and since you don’t know or care about yours come worship with us. Is that a deal? The churches reply was a resounding “Halleluiah! In this way we can really let God know how much love him. He’ll surely appreciate that we (..uh, you) came up this idea celebrate His birthday on the same day as your God. Just think we can bring our God to sit side by side with your God.”

The same scenario will fit the Goddess of “light” and “fertility” that brings the morning sunrise as people worship toward the East.

Isaiah 45:5, ”I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:”[/b] This was Israel’s down fall – idol worship, and by their fall we Gentiles can be saved by His grace. We in Christ cannot fall out of Christ, but I do wonder what His view is on those that see no harm in changing, and/or adding on to His Word of the way He wishes us to remember Him. We will find out soon enough. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12.

 

In a way, this reminds me of a discussion I had with some Jehovah False Witnesses. After they went through their speil about blood transfusions, I asked them, "Do blood transfusions save lives, or not?" They hesitatingly admitted that they often do, but one of their "educated" people began to tell me the dangers of BTs. I cut him short gently, reminding him I'd been a Pharmacist's Mate in the NAV, and a working paramedic in the late '70s-80s and I was well aware of the inherent danger in virtually every medical procedure...but that to do nothing was to allow someone to die needlessly when his/her life coulda been saved by a simple medical procedure. Then, I asked them to show me from their NWT, where it's WRONG to save another person's life.

By the same token, I ask Christians to show me from Scripture where it's wrong to worship and honor JESUS CHRIST.

 

I really don’t know the connection you are trying to make between the JW and me. All I have given you is truth in plain language. I don’t believe you quite understood my post. Where did I say it was wrong for you to worship and honor Jesus Christ in any way you wish? Christians, whether Baptist, Catholic, or with no affiliation are free and at liberty to worship as they please. I believe you have a “chip” on those Navy shoulders, and I know you were proud to wear that uniform, and commend you on your duty.

All Christian’s worship and honor our Lord Jesus Christ. Some do it their way, and some do it the way He requested.

We must prove all with Scripture. Please show me by whose authority you worship and honor Him on a False Birthday. What you believe is a lie that somebody puts before the world. Scripture proves it was not the winter months that He was born. There weren’t any sheep in the shed, as the manger was empty. The Shepard’s were in the nearby mountains. Those sheep would be feeding in the trough that Jesus lay in. Don’t you believe somebody lied to you if you believe Jesus was born in December.

When is your Birthday? If you told me I could send you a Birthday card on your Birthday. If “Joe Blow” tells me he knows you, and it is two to three months after your Birthday; and then every year I send you a Birthday card. What would be your reaction? Wouldn’t it make sense for you to know that I may have you mixed up with some one else that Joe Blow knew? Would you honor that card or the sender? You don’t know Joe Blow or the sender, or the sender doesn’t care enough to search out the truth about you.

I believe the Bible teaches that there is going to be a big bon fire going, being feed by folk like you and me that think perhaps we may have some reward coming. Those chosen to be “stokers” will be hard pressed to keep up with all the dead works we leave as we stand before Him to be judged. The whole of the Bible is for us to believe, and to believe whatever He tells us as we live.

He says Remember me as oft as you do this for through me, by my Father’s Grace, is all that is required of you ituttut. He says my people were to do this in the New Testament, and I then told Paul to tell you, a Gentile that there is a way you can Honor, Obey, and Worship me. Do this as oft as you will, and I will honor you in My Kingdom my Father has given Me. Try to remember my wish ituttut, and not what others believe and wish you to do.

I can find no scripture to contradict His only request to us today. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12

 

The same could be done to defend Islam. Show me from Scripture where it's wrong to worship and honor God?

 

No, that's in the book of Hesitations!

daktim

 

AMEN!!

We celebrate the Resurrection most Sundays and Wednesday's, and make very little of the "Easter Season."

...I do, however, LOVE jelly beans!

daktim

 

Manchester: The same could be done to defend Islam.

Yes, if one misapplies the Scriptures as many pseudo-Christian cults do, or uses an altered bible as the JWs do


Show me from Scripture where it's wrong to worship and honor God?

It isn't...if done in the manner God commanded. Saul was "honoring" God by offering a sacrifice himself, but he was disobeying God, who decreed that only priests were to offer the sacrifices.

 

Ituttut:

We see that the original procedure of sacrifice had changed by Jesus' time, but He didn't declare it wrong. In Leviticus times the people chose an animal from their own flocks for sacrifice, while in Jesus' time they almost always bought such an animal from a vendor. Jesus Himself almost certainly did so. However, the priests most likely followed the written law to the letter.

Jesus blasted the Pharisees for adding to the LAW. They REQUIRED the people to observe a hand-washing ceremony invented by MAN, found nowhere in Scripture. That's different from buying an animal for sacrifice, which became necessary as the Israelis increasingly moved from animal husbandry to other careers. The people buying animals were actually making a sacrifice of money, which which they gained possession of an animal suited for sacrifice. However, the Pharisees' hand-washing requirement was an ADDITION to the law, and not simply a way to conform with the existing law.

Is anyone REQUIRED to observe Easter and/or Christmas by any church? May we not take time for special reflection and praise of God for His inimaginably immense sacrifice He made in our behalf? May we not celebrate the fact that God's Son, who is Himself God, became as one of us for awhile, only without sin...and at the same time, have a season of good will towards men? How many dysfunctional families have become whole again during the Christmas season? How many people have come to Christ, or become much stronger in their faith at Easter? Hasn't GOD used both observances mightily? Sure, ANYTHING can be used for evil purposes...TV, these computers, even the BIBLE...but does evil use make the thing itself evil?

Time to chuck the legalism and use the things God has provided for us!

 

No, that's in the book of Hesitations!

daktim </font>[/QUOTE]If "book of Hesitations" is your original do you have it copywrited? If not OK should I sometime in the future, here or elsewhere, officially plagiarize?

 

Hi Roby. What you write is very true. But see if you may perhaps agree with me on what I see in your reasoning.

You can plainly see the error of the Pharisee, but not the fallacy of the Catholic church, which all her off-spring have taken to their bosom. You nail the Pharisee, and rightly so, but fail to see the churches have done the same thing. They have additional requirements now for the Christian to follow. Who has now become the legalistic of things of man, and do not use that which, as you say “God has provided for us!” He provides for us ”Do this in remembrance of me.”

That is all that He asked, and it was not a command, but a request, so it is not an ordinance, for an ordinance is of law. If we do consider it an ordinance of remembrance, then have we not added to that “ordinance” by agreeing with the Catholic church that we become as the Pharisee by adding to His Word. And even worse we bring into the mist of Christ Jesus one that causes idol worship. Since He tells us it is a “remembrance”, we are to obey, and add nothing to remembering Him in ways he does not wish to be remembered.

Bear with me a moment please. You no doubt are a good Christian, and know much about the Bible, and as with all believers we accept most of what our church believes at the time we join. We become followers. A follower of what becomes acceptable by what ever our church over time has become. But many in Bible study of their own, see troublesome scripture that may not agree with what their church has accepted, in time, over the years.

Most of us know from our “frog” experiments in High School, it is not even noticeable what is happening to us. Until around the 1900’s, Baptists did not observe Christ’s mass, which is for the dead, and it is also known the Presbyterians and Methodists didn’t either. That just did not make sense to those good souls back then of creating a mass for a birth. That sounds like abortion to me.

But the main reason was the source from which sprang these two “Holy Days”, for it was that church that brought in idols, and all the New Converts that worshiped those idols, to join with Jesus Christ, in their Catholic church. The Idol Worshippers did not leave their idols at the door. They demanded, and got what they wanted. They, and the Catholic church would observe the Idol Worshippers two Holy Days, on the dates that they, Idol Worshippers, worshipped on, and the Catholic church must bring over their God to there god, so they could all worship these God’s together. In other words, you set your God beside our god………….It is difficult for me to even put these words here. I just cannot believe how Christians can be so blind, of what we worship. We evidently are worshipping “days”, Galatians 4:10. The Jew wanted to go back and worship these things, and the Christian wishes to go forward and choose their own “day”, etc. We are becoming just as Israel that God said enough. It won’t be long until Christ will have enough in His kingdom, and the Idol Worshippers will have their way, with us gone.

More members is not the answer. Baptists also would not come near things that had to do with Idols. They had a wonderment and fear of God for He is Holy, as is our Savior Jesus Christ. But they also knew He loved them, and they in turn in their love, and knowing even though saved, they are going to be facing Christ face to face, one on one, and our judgment is not of heaven or hell, but our position in Him by what we believed. Then where we live in His kingdom we may have a reward or two of what we did down here. But we will be placed by whether we believed what He said. Adding to, or subtracting from will not be the best place in town to live.

Don’t we know (we should) that Jesus was not born on December 15th? Don’t we know He didn’t ask us to observe His Birthday – He would have given us the moment, minute, hour, day, and month). He tells us from where He came (He has no beginning) and where He was formed into Man, and where He came forth.

We should know that most Baptists members even 70 years ago had no idea what was meant by “Good Friday”, unless they asked the Catholic, Lutheran, or believer friends of like faith as they. For some reason Baptist lost their ability to count to three, and/or just don’t believe Christ when He spoke on this earth.

Many will say understanding His Word is progressive, of which I agree. But we are to progress in His Word, and not embellish with what man tells us. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12

 

Ituttut, I've never been a RC nor ever WILL be. However, if you're rejecting things because of their RCC origins, then you should start with your CALENDAR.

Again...Is it a sin to honor Jesus by praising Him for the immense sacrifice that He-who is also God-made in our behalf?

Of course people have known for a long time-if they've read a Bible closely-that Jesus wasn't born on Dec.25, as the shepherds were still letting their sheep graze overnight. But again...Where's the sin in observing the fact that Jesus set aside most of His power & glory to become one of us, only without sin? And again, how many broken relationships have been mended over the Christmas season?

While I won't look down upon your apparent choice to not observe those times, I shall continue to observe them in a CHRIST-HONORING manner. I shall not attempt to make anything out of them that they are not. As for Jesus' REQUESTS, I shall continue to take 5hem as COMMANDS, and endeavor to keep Communion as I have from the first month of my salvation.(November '79)

 

Daktim...

Apparently, this Bluejayy is a hit-and-runner, as he posts an incorrect set of assertions, and, when rebutted, refuses to follow up. I asked him to discuss the Easter thingie in the "versions" forum, but so far he's been a no-show.

I advise everyone to observe Easter in the manner you feel, CONVICTED, be it an all-day church service, nothing at all, or something in between.

 

Hi guys....

After reading through this entire thread (groan), I only have one thing to add:

CHRIST IS RISEN! (CHRIST IS RISEN INDEED!)
Our church is going to celebrate that day that God stamped the bill for our sin-debt: "Paid in full".

I wish you all a happy Easter/Resurrection Sunday!