Easter

[robycop3]

Bluejayy: The KJV translators did know what they were doing when they put the word "Easter" in the Bible. Let me try to explain:

Actually, they DIDN'T; they goofed. Let ME explain:

The Greek word which is translated "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is the word "pascha"...

Which was coined from the Hebrew 'pesach', which means 'Passover' & nothing else. In Luke's day, 'pascha' meant 'pesach/Passover' and nothing else.(The word"Passover" for this observance was coined by Tyndale in the 1520s & has now been universally accepted in English.) Any translation should reflect LUKE'S thoughts, not those of the translators.

In EVERY other instance in which pascha occurred in the Greek mss translated by the AV men, they used 'Passover'. They had no valid reason to render it differently in this one instance.


Coming to the word "Easter" in God's Authorized Bible,

It's NOT "God's Authorized Bible". It was authorized by King James I of England & Scotland. There's not the slightest hint in Scripture, nor in the words of the AV translators themselves that GOD authorized it.

BTW, the AV was the SECOND authorized English version; the FIRST was the "Great Bible" of 1539, authorized, and indeed, requested to be made, by Henry VIII.


some people seize upon it imagining that they have found proof that the Bible is not perfect.

This particular translation ISN'T perfect.


Well, I believe that it is perfect.

Then, in the face of its PROVEN booboos, you believe incorrectly.


Easter, as we know it,comes from the ancient pagan festival of Astarte(also known as Ishtar). This festival, as we know, was in April. It was a celebration of the earth "regenerating" itself after the winter season. This festival involved a celebration of reproduction.For this reason the common symbols of Easter is the "rabbit" and the "egg".Both are known for their reproductive abilities.
At the center of attention was Astarte, the female deity. She is known in the Bible as the "queen of heaven"(Jer.7:18;44:17-25). She is the mother of Tammuz(Ez.8:14).These rituals would take place at sunrise on Easter morning (Ez.8:13-16). From the referances in Jeremiah and Ezekiel,we can see that the true Easter has never had any association with Jesus Christ.

However, the worship of Ishtar had long-since vanished from the Judea area, having been replaced in turn by "Queen of heaven(Chaldean-the planet Venus), Mazda(Persians), Pallas Athene(Greeks), and Minerva(Romans). Easter as we know it was NOT observed any earlier than C. 155 AD, and it was NOT called Easter until Constantine's time, the late 300s AD. You can verify this from any of several good reference works.


PROBLEM: Even though the Jewish passover was held in mid April (the fourteenth or Fifteenth) and the pagan festival Easter was held later the same month,how do we know that Herod was referring to Easter and not the Jewish passover?

How do we know? Easy...First, Herod wasn't referring to ANYTHING in Scripture; the words are LUKE'S, & Luke was referring to Herod's intent. THIS Herod was trying to PLEASE the jewish leadership; Nero had deposed his predecessor for DISpleasing the Jews, causing them to rebel. When this Herod saw killing James had PLEASED the Jews, he sought to please them even more by delivering peter unto them. However, he had arrested Peter during Passover, and intended to hold him until Passover had ended. To say Herod was observing some pagan Easter is poppycock, not supported whatsoever by history. Actually, he was respecting the Jewish Passover, knowing the Jews wouldn't wanna fool with Peter until after Passover.

I've taken the liberty of sending you a little study I wrote, by this board's private messenger service, PROVING, from the King James version, that the whole week of Unleavened Bread is Passover, NOT just the paschal lamb meal. Thus, Herod's intent should be as clear to YOU as it was for LUKE.

If Herod was referring to the passover, the translation of"pascha" as "Easter" is incorrect.

It IS incorrect.

If Herod was indeed referring to the pagan holiday, then the KJV must truly be the VERY word and words of God for it is the only Bible in print today which has the correct reading.

Actually, it's the only English version still in common use that has the INCORRECT reading.

If you wish to discuss the matter further, especially the KJVO myth in general, please post in the "versions" forum, as that's where this type of discussion belongs.

BTW, I'm no professor...I'm a STEELWORKER. If one such as I can easily figure this out, YOU should see the light quite easily. Hope to "see" ya in tne "versions' forum!

Meanwhile, I thought it necessary to answer the Easter thingy here lest some of our brethren be deceived by the KJVO schmoozemeisters.

 

[robycop3]

Dianetevegia: Yeah.... Isn't it in Hezekiah ... something about plastic pastel eggs sending you straight to hell? [Laugh]

Yerp...right next to the verses that say hot-crossed buns cause worms(Ask Herod) and rabbits lay colored eggs that spread leprosy.

 

[robycop3]

RSR...Tentmaker...Hank...

It doesn't really matter if Herod were Slobbovian. The fact was that he was trying to PLEASE the Jewish religious leadership.

I'm not Jewish, either...but while working on a dope bust with a Jewish undercover officer(during my pagan days as a cop), we waited until AFTER PASSOVER WEEK to go forward, in deference to my partner's religious beliefs. Thus, Herod knew the Jews wouldn't be interested in dealing with peter until after Passover week.

Some KJVOs foolishly assert that JESUS was executed during Passover week. They forget it was the ROMANS who crucified Him, although it was at the request of the Jewish leaders.

You three gents have seen our little Easter discussions in the Versions forum, so I'm sure you're aware that Passover is the WHOLE WEEK of Unleavened Bread & NOT just the paschal meal.

Anyone who doesn't believe this need only ask any Jew.

 

[bluejayy]

robycop3 said,"Easter did not exist any earlier than c.155 AD and certainly didn't exist when Acts was written."

Sorry, you didn't go back far enough in history.
I gave you verses from Jerimiah and Ezekiel.Did you read them?

You said," 'Pascha' was never a name for Ishtar."

This is true. This word is translated "passover".

Let me explain:

To unravel the confusion concerning Easter in Acts 12:4, we must consult our FINAL authority, THE BIBLE. The key which unlocks the puzzle is not found in v.4, but in v.3, as you have quoted.
{THEN were the days of unleavened bread...") to secure the answer that we seek, we must find the relationship of the passover to the days of unleavened bread. We must keep in mind that Peter was arrested DURING the "days of unleavened bread" (Acts 12:3)

You already quoted EX. 12:13-18. V.14 says, "And THIS DAY shall be unto you for a memorial..."
This indicates that the Passover is one day only.

Here in EX.12:13 we see how the Passover got its name. The Lord said that He would pass over all of the houses which have the blood of the lamb marking the door. You already know this; I know that I am not telling you anything you don't already know, just bear with me if you would, please.

After the passover , we find that seven days shall be fulfilled in which the Jews were to eat unleavened bread. THESE are the days of unleavened bread!
In v.18 we see that the dates for the observance were April 14th through the 21st.

This religious observance is stated more clearly in Numbers 28:16-18 which says,
16) And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
17) And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast:seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
18) In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:

In v.16 we see again that the passover is only considered to be the 14th of the month.On the next morning,the 15th begins the "days of unleavened bread."

Deut. 16:1-8: "Observe the month of Abib (April), and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God:for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2. Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.
3. Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction: for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
4. And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coasts seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
5. Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates,which the LORD thy God giveth thee:
6. But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there shalt thou sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7. And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
8. Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein."

Here in Deut. we see again that the passover is sacrificed on the first night (v.1). It is worth noting that the passover was to be celebrated in the evening (v.6) not at sunrise (Ez. 8:13-16).

 

[robycop3]

Bluejayy: robycop3 said,"Easter did not exist any earlier than c.155 AD and certainly didn't exist when Acts was written."

Sorry, you didn't go back far enough in history.
I gave you verses from Jerimiah and Ezekiel.Did you read them?

Yes...They have nothing to do with Easter.

You said," 'Pascha' was never a name for Ishtar."

This is true. This word is translated "passover".

Then you're admitting the KJV people blew it?

Let me explain:

To unravel the confusion concerning Easter in Acts 12:4, we must consult our FINAL authority, THE BIBLE. The key which unlocks the puzzle is not found in v.4, but in v.3, as you have quoted.
{THEN were the days of unleavened bread...") to secure the answer that we seek, we must find the relationship of the passover to the days of unleavened bread. We must keep in mind that Peter was arrested DURING the "days of unleavened bread" (Acts 12:3)

Right...so far.

You already quoted EX. 12:13-18. V.14 says, "And THIS DAY shall be unto you for a memorial..."
This indicates that the Passover is one day only.

Here in EX.12:13 we see how the Passover got its name. The Lord said that He would pass over all of the houses which have the blood of the lamb marking the door. You already know this; I know that I am not telling you anything you don't already know, just bear with me if you would, please.

After the passover , we find that seven days shall be fulfilled in which the Jews were to eat unleavened bread. THESE are the days of unleavened bread!
In v.18 we see that the dates for the observance were April 14th through the 21st.

This religious observance is stated more clearly in Numbers 28:16-18 which says,
16) And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
17) And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast:seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
18) In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:

In v.16 we see again that the passover is only considered to be the 14th of the month.On the next morning,the 15th begins the "days of unleavened bread."

Deut. 16:1-8: "Observe the month of Abib (April), and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God:for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2. Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.
3. Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction: for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
4. And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coasts seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
5. Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates,which the LORD thy God giveth thee:
6. But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there shalt thou sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7. And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
8. Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein."

Here in Deut. we see again that the passover is sacrificed on the first night (v.1). It is worth noting that the passover was to be celebrated in the evening (v.6) not at sunrise (Ez. 8:13-16).

Very good...but INCOMPLETE !!!


First, GOD'S words to Ezekiel, as translated into the KJV:

Ezekiel 45:21, KJV:
In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

It couldn't be any plainer than THAT! Clearly, Luke was referring to PASSOVER when he used the word 'pascha'.

Now, the words of John, who had eaten the Passover with JESUS:

# John 13:1
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.


John 18:28
Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

We know the pascha meal mad been eaten the previous evening...So, why were those Jews concerned with not being defiled so they could EAT THE PASSOVER if Passover consisted of ONLY the paschal meal?

Please read the little study I sent you for a more-detailed explanation of the above.

This discussion actually may belong in the "versions' forum since it's about a basic point of the KJVO myth, so don't be surprised if a moderator moves it there.

 

[bluejayy]

In 2 Chr.8:13 we see that the feast of unleavened bread was one of the three Jewish feasts to be kept during the year.

Whenever the passover was kept, it always preceded the feast of unleavened bread. In 2 Chr. 30 some Jews were unable to keep the passover in the first month, but were able to keep it in the second month. The dates remained the same (2 Chr. 30:15,21).
In Numbers 9:6-8 there were men that were defiled by touching a dead body, so they could not partake of the passover. In verses 9-13 the LORD makes provision for them to have the passover in the second month, on the same days of the month.

We see then, from studying what the BIBLE has to say concerning the subject that the order of events goes like this:
1) On the fourteenth of April the lamb was killed. This is the passover.
2) On the morning of the fifteenth begins the days of unleavened bread, also known as the feast of unleavened bread.

It must also be noted that whenever the passover is mentioned in the N.T., the reference is always to the meal, to be eaten on the night of the 14th, not the entire week. The days of unleavened bread are NEVER referred to as the passover. It must be remembered that the angel of the Lord passed over Egypt on one night, not seven nights in a row.

Acts 12:3 shows that Peter was arrested during the days of unleavened bread (April 15-21), correct? The Bible says: " Then were the days of unleavened bread." The passover (April 14th) had already come and gone. Herod could not possibly have been referring to the passover in his statement concerning Easter. The next passover was a year away! But the pagan holiday of Easter was just a few days away.
Remember! Herod was a pagan Roman who worshipped the "queen of heaven". He was NOT a Jew. He had no reason to keep the Jewish passover.

In further considering Herod's position as a Roman, we must remember that the herods were well known for celebrating(Matt.14:6-11). In fact, in Matt.14 we see that a Herod was even willing to kill a man of God during one of his celebations.

Herod had not killed Peter during the days of unleavened bread simply because he wanted to wait until Easter. Since it is plain that both the Jews (Matt.26:17-47) and the Romans (Matt.14:6-11) would kill during a religious celebration, Herod's opinion seemed that he was not going to let the Jews "have all the fun". He would wait until his own pagan festival and see to it that Peter died in the excitement.

Well, I hope this helps you out there. I have given you the facts; now you ask God, regardless of what you have been taught, ask God to reveal it to you. I am done with this topic, so if you have more to say about it, I will not answer.

The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. AMEN!

 

[robycop3]

Bluejayy: Whenever the passover was kept, it always preceded the feast of unleavened bread. In 2 Chr. 30 some Jews were unable to keep the passover in the first month, but were able to keep it in the second month. The dates remained the same (2 Chr. 30:15,21).

In Numbers 9:6-8 there were men that were defiled by touching a dead body, so they could not partake of the passover. In verses 9-13 the LORD makes provision for them to have the passover in the second month, on the same days of the month.

God made special exception for them; He didn't change His law.

We see then, from studying what the BIBLE has to say concerning the subject that the order of events goes like this:
1) On the fourteenth of April the lamb was killed. This is the passover.
2) On the morning of the fifteenth begins the days of unleavened bread, also known as the feast of unleavened bread.

Better read it a little more closely. The Jews began their day at SUNSET rather than midnight, as they still do today. Please review the laws of the Passover as God gave them in Exodus 12 & Numbers 9. You'll see there are two Holy Convocations called for, the first one being on the next evening after the paschal meal. By reading those laws, as well as the Gospel of John, you should see the events around Jesus' crucifixion...Jesus ate the Passover meal with His disciples, was arrested later that night, and was crucified the next morning. The PREPARATION DAY that John mentioned was still the same day that the paschal meal had been eaten; the next day began at sunset, & that was the time for the HOLY CONVOCATION. Another thing...the feast day and the convocation days were called HIGH SABBATHS, regardless of what day of the week on which they fell, with all the rules of the regular weekly Sabbath being observed as well as the special rules for that particular High Sabbath. Remember, the Jews were to do no work on those days other than caring for their animals & serving their food. Thus, on the PREPARATION DAY, they did all their mundane work, washing their clothes, cleaning their homes, etc. so they had nothing but essential work to do on Convocation Day. Also thusly, the Jews wanted Jesus & the thieves dead & off the crosses before sunset.

It must also be noted that whenever the passover is mentioned in the N.T., the reference is always to the meal, to be eaten on the night of the 14th, not the entire week. The days of unleavened bread are NEVER referred to as the passover. It must be remembered that the angel of the Lord passed over Egypt on one night, not seven nights in a row.

Ezekiel 45:21, KJV:
In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

It can't be any plainer than this!

Remember, these are GOD'S WORDS, not Ezekiel's! Zeke merely COPIED them.


All these things are right there in your Bible. All you hafta do is READ it. Also, just ASK ANY JEW what Preparation Day is, and whether or not Passover consists of the ENTIRE WEEK or not.

Acts 12:3 shows that Peter was arrested during the days of unleavened bread (April 15-21), correct? The Bible says: " Then were the days of unleavened bread." The passover (April 14th) had already come and gone.

No, only the paschal meal had come & gone.And ACCORDING TO GOD, Passover was still in progress.


Herod could not possibly have been referring to the passover in his statement concerning Easter. The next passover was a year away!

Herod did NOT make the statement in question...LUKE DID! And he wrote PASCHA. In his time pascha meant PASSOVER, AND NOTHING ELSE. Easter didn't yet exist. By his writing "pascha", Luke could NOT have meant anything else but PASSOVER. It was the KJV TRANSLATORS' BOOBOO that made it read "Easter".


But the pagan holiday of Easter was just a few days away.

No, it wasn't. It didn't then exist in that part of the world. And we must remember that Herod, although he was trying to please the Jewish leadership, was serving as ruler UNDER ROMAN AUTHORITY. And the Romans celebrated the rites in honor of Cybele, their goddess of fertility, and of her son/consort Attis, god of vegetation that time of year. Luke would NEVER hace called that orgy PASCHA!


Remember! Herod was a pagan Roman who worshipped the "queen of heaven".

No, he DIDN'T! Please consult any good reference work. In that time and place, the queen of heaven was Minerva, represented in the sky with the planet Venus. And neither Scripture nor secular history say what this Herod worshipped. The only pagan feasts observed in that time/place were the feast(orgy) of Cybele & Attis, and Saturnalia, generally observed near the spring equinox. NEITHER of these was EVER known as EASTER!


He was NOT a Jew. He had no reason to keep the Jewish passover.

I'm not a Jew, either, but I know I'm not gonna be doing any business with any Jew during Passover!

And NOWHERE does Scripture nor secular history say Herod KEPT the Passover. However, he RESPECTED it, much as non-Jewish Americans such as I respect Passover without observing it .

In further considering Herod's position as a Roman, we must remember that the herods were well known for celebrating(Matt.14:6-11). In fact, in Matt.14 we see that a Herod was even willing to kill a man of God during one of his celebations.

That has nothing to do with the subject at hand. We're dealing only with HEROD AGRIPPA here.

Herod had not killed Peter during the days of unleavened bread simply because he wanted to wait until Easter.

No, he wasn't himself intending to kill Peter at all...he was intending to turn Peter over to the Jewish leadership to be dealt with as they wished. herod knew the Jews would NOT interrupt Passover to do this. Your idea is pure GUESSWORK.


Since it is plain that both the Jews (Matt.26:17-47) and the Romans (Matt.14:6-11) would kill during a religious celebration, Herod's opinion seemed that he was not going to let the Jews "have all the fun". He would wait until his own pagan festival and see to it that Peter died in the excitement.

That idea is NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER! Scripture plainly says Herod intended to TURN PETER OVER TO THE JEWISH LEADERSHIP!

This bears out my assertion that KJVOs operate from guesswork and imagination, while ignoring the FACTS found in their own fave Bible version.

Well, I hope this helps you out there. I have given you the facts;

No, you HAVEN'T; it's been mostly guesswork, imagination, Scripture-twisting, and wishful thinking, things for which KJVOs are notorious.


now you ask God, regardless of what you have been taught, ask God to reveal it to you.

I HAVE, and He's already done so, in His word, translated into English now, for nearly 700 years, translated into today's English now. Unlike some people, I take the Scriptures literally. What grounds does anyone have to dispute God's words to Ezekiel, "THE PASSOVER, A FEAST OF SEVEN DAYS"?


I am done with this topic, so if you have more to say about it, I will not answer.

That's because you'll only be proven wrong again, by the very Bible version you're trying to defend. You've been looking for a reason to jump ship for two days now, ever since we started peppering you with verses from your own BV that prove your "Easter" thingy wrong.

I see no comment from you concerning my comments about "God's authorized Bible".

I see no comments from you concerning Ezekiel 45:21.

I see no comments from you concerning John 18:28 , John 19:14, John 19:31, John 19:32, Matthew 27:62, Mark 15:42, or Luke 23:54. Plainly, Jesus had eaten the paschal meal BEFORE HE WAS ARRESTED. What Passover were the Jews who who arrested Jesus planning to observe(John 18:28) if not the Holy Convocation & the rest of the Days of Unleavened Bread, which, according to GOD'S words to Ezekiel, are part of Passover?

I see no admission from you that you were wrong in attributing statements made by LUKE to Herod.

All your imaginings about Easter are proven wrong by Scripture.

I doubt if you read the little study I sent you.

I doubt if you looked into any reference book to see if our commentary is correct.

"Easter" in Acts 12:4 is proven INCORRECT.

In other words, YOU LOSE! Therefore, you bail out!

 

[HankD]

The days of unleavened bread are NEVER referred to as the passover.

Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.


HankD

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Amen on your Colossians reference diane. Colossians 2:13-14 informs we today leave nothing on the table from the ordinances of those under law, as they all were nailed to the Cross and we are not to get involved with the church in Jerusalem as they wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised, and do as the Jew with their Sabbaths, all of them, and not eat any foods not blessed (much of the Gentile food in that day was offered to idols).

We know these Judaizers were from the Pentecostal church (Galatians 2:12) for Paul had to admonish Peter on this matter, and even Barnabas got carried away when certain from James saw them, viz. Peter and Barnabas eating Gentile food with the Gentiles. This falls into line with what Paul couldn’t believe about the Galatians, in chapter 4, verses 10-11, [qi]”Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.”[/qi] The Galatians were wanting to be under the law, and those that had been under it wanted to return. So Colossians 2:16 advises to not let those that first came under the law, that will inherit the earth, to make us feel guilty thinking we must bring some, all, or just one of their practices into the Christian church.

This battle has been constant since Damascus Road. It is just human nature to want to have religious rites, or something, in order for us to believe we should have something to do with our salvation other than coming through faith. The “grace commission” cannot have anything to do with the hands of man. That gift we have is free for He that did all the works, and is the one by whom we are saved.

Easter and Christmas only come to us by way of the Catholic church, by Constantine, Pontifus Maximus – high priest of paganism. If I am not mistaken, there is one that carries that title today.

My Bible says Jesus asked us to remember Him in only one way, as oft as we do it. This is no ordinance, but a personal request on this side of His crucifixion, evidenced by Christ giving Paul specific instructions on this matter. By the grace of God we Gentile’s, and the Jew can join us, He now allows us to partake of His Body and His blood. We Gentiles can now also be in the Temple, even the Holy of Holies as we are where He is.

 

[robycop3]

Seems as if the Jews were just as guilty as anyone else in ADDING to God's commands, or misinterpreting them purposely. For instance, the Pharisees hollered at Jesus & Co. for husking the wheat they pickes as they walked along a road on a Sabbath, accusing them of WORKING. Jesus instantly remonded them that God had never prohibited ESSENTIAL work on the Sabbath. For example, He reminded them that if one of their animals were to fall into a hole on a Sabbath, they'd work to extricate it. And husking wheat by rolling it between one's hands would be considered essential work, as unhusked wheat is almost unchewable.

An example of ADDING to God's commands was the hand-washing ritual before a meal as prescribed by the Pharisees. Sure, WE wash our hands before we eat, but the object is to CLEAN OUR HANDS, NOT to follow some ritual. Jesus ripped those Pharisees for replacing the commands of God with the traditions of man...some of them were faulting Jesus for not washing His hands according to their ritual, while they were letting their aged parents starve. Unfortunately, there are 'religious' people today who do basically these same two sins.

As for Easter...Many of us grew up with it, hearing all the old Easter songs, listening to all the Peter Cottontail stories from our babyhoods onward. That was the case with me, but now I recognize the observance as RESURRECTION DAY. I see NOTHING wrong with participating in this observance, long as it's CHRIST-HONORING and free of the paganism. After all, Jesus' resurrection is *THE* most important event in the establishment of Christianity.

Mister Bluejayy's agenda, it seems, was to promote tha false KJVO myth, but when the heat was turned up & he was proven wrong by his own fave Bible version, he opted to bail, as is the wont of many a KJVO when their myth is crushed before their eyes. He MAY be willing to continue the conversation in the proper forum, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[time like this]

Interesting discussion. Maybe we should consider the day on which we celebrate instead of the word used for the celebration not diminishing from the power of word as they define. This year easter is celebrated on March 27th and Passover on April 24th. How can the same celebration be so far apart? I know the early church fathers changed the time of the celebration. looking for who changed the time and why. did these men have the authority to establish a new holy day?

 

[robycop3]

I don't know exactly WHO changed it, but I DO know they were Catholics, who wanted Easter to be completely separate from Passover. Since the date for the beginning of Passover is constant on the Jewish calendar, the RCs devised a method for supposedly keeping Easter close to the day when they believed the resurrection occurred, but not ever falling upon the same day as the paschal meal.

We must bear in mind that Passover was given to ISRAEL ONLY, while Communion was given by Jesus to all. And nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to observe Resurrection day, but I see no harm in observing it long as no one tries to make it a command, thus adding to God's commands. In fact, it gives us another occasion to PRAISE AND THANK JESUS for what He did for us!

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by time like this:
Interesting discussion. Maybe we should consider the day on which we celebrate instead of the word used for the celebration not diminishing from the power of word as they define. This year easter is celebrated on March 27th and Passover on April 24th. How can the same celebration be so far apart? I know the early church fathers changed the time of the celebration. looking for who changed the time and why. did these men have the authority to establish a new holy day?

...........And then from Robycop3
I don't know exactly WHO changed it, but I DO know they were Catholics, who wanted Easter to be completely separate from Passover. Since the date for the beginning of Passover is constant on the Jewish calendar, the RCs devised a method for supposedly keeping Easter close to the day when they believed the resurrection occurred, but not ever falling upon the same day as the paschal meal.

We must bear in mind that Passover was given to ISRAEL ONLY, while Communion was given by Jesus to all. And nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to observe Resurrection day, but I see no harm in observing it long as no one tries to make it a command, thus adding to God's commands. In fact, it gives us another occasion to PRAISE AND THANK JESUS for what He did for us!.

Hi to -- time like this, and Robycop3.

So happy to see some that can correctly divide the Word of God in the Baptist church. I’m basing this observation only on each of your above references. It appears at least on this issue we may see things differently than so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

In history we can find and know this particular form of paganism was brought into the Catholic church officially by Constantine, he being named Pontifus Maximus – high priest of paganism. Isn’t there someone even today that carries that same title, “Pontifus Maximus”? However we also know the Christian was not to observe Passover, for that is only for the nation of Israel. Jesus plainly says he came just for His own. But because of His people’s unbelief, we heathen dogs are now being saved by the Grace of God through Christ’s shed blood, which always had the power to save us all, but the lamb was originally sacrificed just for His own.

So Robycop3 has the Catholic churches number. They are the ones that have duped all the well-known denominations into following the “mother church” into idol worship, with their Holy days of Easter and Christmas. I see above the phrase “early church fathers”, which I endeavor to stay away from mentioning in those particular words. There is One Father of us all, and One Savior of us all, and Israel had many Fathers. But I believe we Christians, if we can say this, only have one that we can hearken back to for direction in the Word of God. Of course that is the gospel of Paul whose gospel is the gospel of Christ Jesus as He sits in heaven today on the right hand of His Father.

Paul is the only Apostle I have, and I’m going to believe what God told him to convey to me. What was before was written for our knowledge and study, to know who God is, and what is His purpose, and who, and who is not the Father’s own. Christ Jesus tells me I am His inheritance, and He was given this inheritance by His Father. Praise God the Father to whom I can now approach through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as I am in His Body. We can now approach the Father as Moses never could. Oh, how I love Jesus, and the Jew also. If not for their unbelief, I a gentile would have never been in the Temple of God. We will now be with Christ Jesus forever, wherever He dwells.

The 12 Apostles observed Passover almost all of their lives, and Paul did for a short time. But we know that the “kingdom of God” that was preached by John the Baptist to the Jew, and by Jesus, and Jesus Christ while on this earth to His people was phased out, and then the kingdom of Christ Jesus was phased in. The birth of the “grace commission”, and the kingdom of Christ to contain also the Gentile, had its beginning on Damascus Road. The seed was planted there on Damascus Road as soon as Paul was insight of that Gentile town. The first Gentile preached to or at was Cornelius some 5-7 years from Pentecost, and Peter had the honor of being chosen by Christ to do it. But after that it was Gods will that he (Peter) and the others, for a while to go just to the house of Israel, and leave the Gentile’s to Paul.

Sins always enter in a church by an idol. Not just pictures, statues of things we may know what they look like, or maybe not. They usually are of men/women/babies, or a woman with a baby, or animals. Then we have the other kind, the most subtlest of all, appealing to our senses of beauty and emotional. He, we know who, just walks in, in all his beauty, with his pipes, and drums (band) as God describes Him. When people speak today of going to worship, if you will notice they are thinking about the singing, not the preaching. We praise God by our singing, and find worship in our love and adoration as we hear His Words as He speaks to us. He doesn’t talk to us as He did with His people. He left all of His Word with us, explaining the beginning, and taking us to the end. But until Saul/Paul, we just did not know it all. Now we do, and all that we have to do is divide out His Word that is to us today, so that we may be with Him as those Saints come marching in.

 

[robycop3]

I don't know if paul continued to observe Passover or not, but I suspect he did. First, as a Jew, Paul knew the Passover command was to be observed by Israelis FOR ALL GENERATIONS. Next, he didn't wanna alienate the other Jews who'd think his abandonment of Passover was heretical. nor did he wish to be a stumbling block by abandoning Passover, causing conscience clashes in those Jews who continued to observe passover after being saved, by possibly making them believe Passover was then WRONG. Also, he knew JESUS had observed Passover since His earthly youth.

One thing's certain...PAUL, NOR ANY OTHER APOSTLE EVER CELEBRATED EASTER! It didn't exist in their lifetimes!

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by robycop3:
I don't know if paul continued to observe Passover or not, but I suspect he did. First, as a Jew, Paul knew the Passover command was to be observed by Israelis FOR ALL GENERATIONS. Next, he didn't wanna alienate the other Jews who'd think his abandonment of Passover was heretical. nor did he wish to be a stumbling block by abandoning Passover, causing conscience clashes in those Jews who continued to observe passover after being saved, by possibly making them believe Passover was then WRONG. Also, he knew JESUS had observed Passover since His earthly youth.

Agree with your understanding of the Word as this is what it teaches. But it has more to say I believe. Me not being a Jew, and none so recognized as such today, leaves zero to observe Passover today. Did Paul continue the practice? I believe a case can be made that He did not. I believe Paul is no way the same as the other Apostle’s. They will have their kingdom, and I do not believe Paul will be in their mist as they judge earthly Israel.

The way I understand the Word is God finally got Paul far away from Jerusalem. I believe Paul finally gave up trying to save Israel. God finally got through to Him that He (Jesus) could not get them to believe, and neither could the Holy Ghost, so what chance did Paul have.

But Paul had crucified the Pentecostal church so thoroughly, scattering, and forcing them into Gentile lands, he was now trying to make up for it. So he just kept on, and Christ wanted him to get on to the Gentiles, and the rulers of the world, the Gentiles were headquartering in Rome.

We see in Acts, Paul was warned not to go to Jerusalem, and forget it and its works. They were not for him. But in our freedom and free will from God, we sometime do what we think best. So God took Paul to the woodshed in Jerusalem. Christ used His half-brother, James the legalist of the works church to humble Paul. I believe when Paul got to Jerusalem, God slapped up beside the head to confuse him.

James was evidently a very strong willed person, plus he being the half brother of Jesus gave him great leverage, as we see how he took over the church that Peter was to head up. But before this incident and afterwards, James could not match Paul. I’m sure Paul regretted this part of his personality until he died. He could have, and probably did lose some of his effectiveness for the Body of Christ. Some see this incidence in Acts, and then believe some of what Paul said, but never quite sure if he is what he said he was. The only heavenly appointed Apostle of Christ from heaven as He sits on the right hand of His Father.

So what am I talking about. Paul went to Jerusalem to worship and do the things that the Pentecostal kingdom of God church was doing. Paul was even going to offer a sacrifice, and he was going to foot the bill for the other’s that took an oath also. But we see where God stepped in and would not allow Paul to depart from the Christian faith and get back under the law of the Jew. This is similar to when God sent Peter to actually preach to a Gentile. This was unheard of, but Peter an obedient servant of God did what He was told. But as Peter was preaching and winding up to get to the great commandment of ”repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” God stopped Peter’s tongue – Acts 10:43-45, ”To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. 44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. 45. And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.” God does not want a Gentile anywhere near any teachings of what is for His people only. Christ will have His inheritance, in His kingdom in the kingdom of God. We’ll get to see the kingdom people as they come marching in.

One thing's certain...PAUL, NOR ANY OTHER APOSTLE EVER CELEBRATED EASTER! It didn't exist in their lifetimes!

Amen and Amen! I’m with you brother. The Jews got into trouble associating with idols, and we are no different today.

 

[time like this]

If we as beleivers do not celebrate the jewish passover which is Jesus. Then how do we and where do we recieve our NT observance of passover as being at a different time from that of the jews. Since the thing we reject was not jewish but from God, before there was a law(torah). I beleive walk on sandy foundations when we distance ourselves from our biblical roots and their natural symbolisms as passed to man from God. Christian is just an english way of saying messias (Mashiach)in the hebrew tongue. We quickly abandoned any and everything of judaism yet we quickly embrace traditions of western thought as they originate from heathen nations. we say we are free to do this by grace because we are not under the law/torah (teachings). I have know plans to offer sacrafice of my own jesus has done that once and for all for all and it is everlasting. Yet in the traditions of written judaism we see the prophetic history of our faith and it ever speaks of the grace of God that we now have in Christ Jesus. We so often accuse one another of trying to live under the law, and not to take part in ot celebrations yet the ones that are man made, and the dates certain men have decided to adopt that we all know originated out of paganism rituals that israel was constantly told to separate from have now become holy by grace. Yet if i celebrate the passover in the same season as jews do I will be looked upon as a heretic or without understanding of the principles of grace.Judaism is not man made but a pattern given to moses from God. Why is wrong to refrence these traditions as long as we are not denying Christ but acknowledging the path by which he came and the grace that is shown in the shadows and types.

I like that we are discussing this and not fighting with scriptures.

 

[av1611jim]

I just LOVE those malted-milk robins eggs!
I get me a couple bags EVERY Easter. Although Malted Milk Balls are good, they ain't nothin like Robin's Eggs!
MMMMMGood!

Call me pagan. I just LOVE them malted eggs!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[robycop3]

Time Like This...

The Passover(pesach in Hebrew, pascha in Greek) was given ONLY TO ISRAEL AS A NATION, & to those non-Israeli families & individuals who'd chosen to live among Israel. After all, THEY were the ones who were "passed over".

ALL the Jewish ceremonies and observances were given to them by God. And please note that nowhere in Scripture is there any command for the GENTILES to observe them unless they were living among israel and wished to serve God same as the Israelis. A clear example of this is the KENITES, who were Midianites, and included Moses' in-laws.

Remember, Scripture says if one is living under the law, he/she must obey ALL OF IT, TO THE LETTER, AND IF ONE FAILS IN JUST ONE POINT, ONE FAILS IN ALL OF IT. Therefore, if you're observing Passover, but not taking the ordained steps to remove the ceremonial defilements we each encounter every day, then you've FAILED to keep the law!

Scripture says, that while the laws are still "on the books", we're not under the ceremonial laws any more; JESUS fulfilled them in our places.

Remember, some Greeks enquired of the Jewish apostles whether they should begin keeping the Jewish law since they were saved, had heard the Gospel from Jews, and Jesus was a Jew...and , AFTER PRAYER, the apostles told them what few of the laws to keep.(This, of course, included the genaral laws of behavior.)

You CANNOT vacillate between systems! The NEW COVENANT has replaced the Old Covenant (by FULFILLING it through Jesus, who presented the New Covenant...He didn't ERASE the old one!)

I don't observe Passover, Sabbaths, new moon festivals, etc. for the simple reason I'm not Jewish and was never under that law. OTOH, JESUS observed Jewish law because He was incarnated as a Jew, and preached the Kingdom of God because He IS GOD, and had every right and authority to preach it.

I notice you claim to be Baptist/Pentecostal. This explains your wanting to keep some JEWISH observances while still claiming to be a Christian. Sure, you say these ordinances are from GOD, while ignoring the fact that He gave most of them to ISRAEL ALONE!

Personally, I won't associate with any pentecostal orgs or activities whatsoever. They have way too much legalistic horsefeathers and misinterpretations of Scripture for me! Methinks it's a CULT.

 

[robycop3]

Guess I'm doing sumpin wrong, Jim! I've busted caps on hundreds of wabbits & aint never found no eggs in any of'em.

A big 10-4 on those Brach's & Cadbury eggs!

 

[Debby in Philly]

OY!

We have this every holiday.

Easter is the first Sunday
after the first full moon
after the first day of spring.

And that has pagan written all over it. Just like Christmas being timed with the winter solstice.

SO TAKE THE HOLIDAY BACK, and use it as a means of getting folks' attention and share the gospel! End of discussion!