Ecclesia vs. Hetaeria

[DHK]

Take DHK e.g., who denies the Universal Church even exists, yet he claims the Universal Church must baptise with water?

Never said this GE.
You need to quote me when making such slanderous statements.
You know very well I don't believe in a universal church, so why would I make such a statement?

 

[Tom Butler]

GE

Not necessary for another thread, the Scriptures aren't many, but powerful. The onus lies with the one who wants to prove water baptism - he must supply the Scriptures that show - not 'command' - just show, the Church after the Apostles must baptise with water.

Take DHK e.g., who denies the Universal Church even exists, yet he claims the Universal Church must baptise with water?

John the Baptists said in so many words, that he baptises WITH WATER, but that He Who comes after him, would NOT baptise WITH WATER! Now isn't that enough? But there is MUCH more.

What makes a 'called-out' an apostle - a teacher? The fact he is appointed a teacher - an apostle! Now did Christ commission you or me or DHK or the pope to be the teachers of the Church? "You shall call o one Rabbi" for One is your Teacher. Just like the pope makes himself Father against Christ's Law, so does the Church make itself Teacher and Baptiser against God's Law.

Sorry, have to go - very little time now a days, still poorer than ever!

[FONT=palatino, Book Antiqua]Ephesians 4:11-13 "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

V.7 says they all were gifts from Jesus the Christ, among them pastor/teacher. All in the context of the "one body" mentioned in v.4--that body being the local congregation.

Of course, all the apostles are dead, and there were no replacements, since one of the qualifications was that they had to be witnesses of the resurrection.

God continues to call and gift believers for the responsibilities mentioned in 4:11-13.
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[DHK]

[FONT=palatino, Book Antiqua]Ephesians 4:11-13 "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

V.7 says they all were gifts from Jesus the Christ, among them pastor/teacher. All in the context of the "one body" mentioned in v.4--that body being the local congregation.

Of course, all the apostles are dead, and there were no replacements, since one of the qualifications was that they had to be witnesses of the resurrection.

God continues to call and gift believers for the responsibilities mentioned in 4:11-13.
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If there was confustion here, it should have been read carefully.

[FONT=palatino, Book Antiqua]V.7 says they all were gifts from Jesus the Christ, among them pastor/teacher. All in the context of the "one body" mentioned in v.4--that body being the local congregation.[/FONT]

 

[gb93433]

Yes, the local church does have some in it who are not true believers. That means that they are not scripturally baptized, and are imposters. God does not always harvest in the fall, but he always harvests.

Was the man hanging on the cross next to Jesus ever saved? Was he scripturally baptized? When Paul said he did not come to baptize but to preach was he in error when he said that?

"Some in it"? The vast majority never disciple anyone. They are hearers but not doers. I would say most churches are deceived. Many church leaders and pastors have been programmed by their gurus to fail. Very few church leaders today are making disciples. They brag about how many come to know Christ and are baptized each year. But how many brag about the number of disciples they are making who reproduce themselves in the lives of others?

The church is comprised of those who come out of the world to follow Christ.

Imposters may be a part of man's local assembly but they are not part of the church Jesus is building. Jesus dealt with imposters in Mt. 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

James deals with those who are deceived. They are not doers of the word. They are simply pew sitters. They may have correct doctrine intellectually and rub each others backs but they live like practical atheists because they do not make disciples as Jesus taught. Jesus gave the vision and methodology.

If Jesus is building His church then how do you deal with those who are one with Christ in places where Christ has never been named. When they first arrive they do not fellowship with any local church and often times not with anyone until they win at least one for Christ. Some of them are in places where the denomination does not make it known to anyone. They are still called out from the world to follow Christ and make him known in other places of the world. There is not any local assembly where they are.

In your fantasy church (Universal), all are believers, but many are deceived, because they are fellowshipping with those who teach error, particularly error regarding how one is saved.

Every called out one who is part of a local church is also part of the body of Christ. The body of Christ is the universal church.

The church Christ builds is not deceived. He is the head. How could you say that someone who goes to a country alone where Christ is not named with the intent of maing disciples is deceived?

 

[DHK]

What local church does a single missionary in a country all by himself where there are no believers yet attend? What local church did William Carey attend before he won his first for Christ? What would you call the church was he was a part of?

A missionary is a church planter. He is sent out by a local church from which he retains his membership. This is what Paul did. Paul was sent out and commissioned by the church at Antioch.

Acts 13:2-3 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
The "they" is the church at Antioch.
Paul went on three different missionary journeys, established over one hundred local churches. He began from Antioch each time, and each time reported back to his home church of Antioch. That is the Biblical pattern that Paul has set. He tells us in 1Cor.1, that he did not do the baptizing. He tells us in Acts 14 that he ordained elders in all the churches that he established. It seems apparent then, that the elders or pastors that were left in charge would have done the baptizing in the churches established.
Apollos suceeded Paul in Corinth. It is likely that Apollos did much or most of the baptizing in Corinth, for Paul says that God did not call him to baptize, and he thanks the Lord that he did not baptize any of them except for three individuals that he mentions. He was sent to preach the gospel. Thus without baptizing individuals he did not completely fulfill the Great Commission by himself. He had others involved in doing so. It involved the authority of the local church.

Are you the only person who is properly informed by which all information is judged? Could there be a remote possibility that you do not know every bit of information on missions? Could it be that your information and experience is so limited that consequently you do not know everything?

Of coursre I don't know everything. I don't like to boast. I don't like to be challenged of my qualifications. I don't even like to post my qualifications. But you have done so. Why do you think I am either qualified or not qualified?
1. Because I have been working on a foreign mission field for the past 25 years or quarter of a century--more than age of many of the people that post here.
2. Because my work presently involves a Bible College at which I teach. However, I have been teaching all this time Bible College courses every year for the past 29 years, many of them missions related.
3. I believe that I have earned the right to speak with some authority on the subject of missions and what happens on the mission field.

Don’t you think that God’s program far surpasses your limited knowledge and experience? For more information you may want to read some books by Rev. Richard Wurmbrand and his wife.

I have read them. So what. People suffer. Christians suffer. That is a fact of life. Does that negate God's program for Biblical missions?

There are many others besides. You may also want to study under a few former missionaries in your seminary studies as I once did and found that I knew much less that I thought.

Study under them? I teach them--missionaries going to the field.

You should know that there are not Christians in every location in this world. I know two people who went to areas where there were no Christians and Christ was not named.

Of course I know that. I believe you took my statement a bit too literal. It is a general statement saying that there are Christians "all over this world" that gather in assemblies such as we do. If I said in every single nation, I was wrong. There are many unreached peoples that have not yet heard the gospel. I know that all too well.

One was in 1977 and the other was in 1995. They have told me not to tell anyone about them or that I know them if asked. The one in 1977 is now retired. When he came home he told me that he was being followed in the U.S. and for me to not tell anyone about him or that I even knew him. That man started churches in the country where he was at but when he arrived he was the only Christian.

The fear of persecution exists from many nations, especially from Islamic nations.

For more research you may want to contact the International Mission Board of the SBC. You may want to contact Wycliffe Bible translators and see where they go too.

I already have quite a bit of information at my fingertips.

Go a location where there are no believers then you will understand.

You assume too much. I have been there, and done that.
BTW, what have you done for the Lord, besides being a critic of others and an armchair theologian?
We (our family) were the only Christians in a city of more than five million. We were pioneer missionaries in a land where we first had to learn the language and then start a work which eventually culminated in a church. We did things the Biblical way.

My point is that growth in a church cannot be measured in how much people feel cared for and how many people the pastors knows and visits. Growth is measured in how many disciples are being made. It is the labor of many not just one. Making disciples is the work of every believer. That is the real missionary work among the people.

The Great Commission is given primarily to the local church. Single individuals do not have the authority to baptize. They are called to be witnesses (Acts 1:8), but the ordinance of baptism was given to the local church. There is no such thing as a universal church. A universal church cannot carry out the Great Commission. It cannot start local churches. It cannot send out missionaries. It cannot do anything. It just simply doesn't exist.

 

[Darron Steele]

...We (our family) were the only Christians in a city of more than five million. We were pioneer missionaries in a land where we first had to learn the language and then start a work which eventually culminated in a church. ...

I am pleased to see how the Lord has blessed your efforts. May He reward your labor bountifully.

 

[gb93433]

They are called to be witnesses (Acts 1:8), but the ordinance of baptism was given to the local church. There is no such thing as a universal church. A universal church cannot carry out the Great Commission. It cannot start local churches. It cannot send out missionaries. It cannot do anything. It just simply doesn't exist.

I would hate to think that you hide under the cloak of a local church should you need to come out against your own church should it become wayward. That happened to me.

My authority does not come from a local church. It comes from God. Should the local church walk with God then great. If the local church becomes lukewarm then it is useless.

I take the universal church as all believers. They will be brought into heaven. Not all local church members are even Christians. Not all church leaders are members. If the disciples can be fooled about Judas who is to say we cannot. I do think that the best indicator of a believer is one who make disciples who reproduce themselves in the lives of others.

One with God is a majority. We see it over and over in scripture. We see over and over the work done by one person walking with God. If I waited for a church to motivate me to make disciples I would still be waiting.

 

[gb93433]

I don't like to be challenged of my qualifications. I don't even like to post my qualifications. But you have done so. Why do you think I am either qualified or not qualified?

I am challenging your theology. It has nothing to do with your qualifications.

BTW, what have you done for the Lord, besides being a critic of others and an armchair theologian?

Amos was told the same thing.

The author at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm does a good job of talking about what I have spent my life doing.

We (our family) were the only Christians in a city of more than five million. We were pioneer missionaries in a land where we first had to learn the language and then start a work which eventually culminated in a church. We did things the Biblical way.

If God led you to do that, then great. God bless you.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK pontificated...

"There is no such thing as a universal church. A universal church cannot carry out the Great Commission. It cannot start local churches. It cannot send out missionaries. It cannot do anything. It just simply doesn't exist.

From Lighthouse Baptist Church of American Fork, Utah...

"The Universal Church

I believe that there is only one true church, whose head is Christ. I believe that Christ is building His church through the agency of the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that the Church originated on the day of Pentecost and consists of all Spirit baptized believers regardless of their location. Hence, the church is unique to this dispensation.

Local churches are visible expressions of the universal church (Acts 13:1; Ro 16:1; 1 Co 1:2; Rev 2:1,12,18)."

From an evangelical website called "GotQuestions,org"

Here is who they are:

" GotQuestions.org is a volunteer ministry of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, Scripture, salvation, and other spiritual topics. We are Christian, Protestant, conservative, evangelical, fundamental, and non-denominational. We view ourselves as a para-church ministry, coming alongside the church to help people find answers to their spiritually related questions."

And here is what they say:

"Question: "What is the difference between the universal church and local church?"


Answer: To understand the difference between the local church and the universal church, one must get a basic definition of each.


The local church is a group of believers in Jesus Christ who meet in some particular location on a regular basis.

The universal church is made up of all believers in Jesus Christ worldwide.



The term church comes from at least 2 words. One of the words has to do with the meeting together or “assembly” (1 Thessalonians 2:14; 2 Thessalonians 1:1). This word is one that pertains to the work of God in saving and sanctifying believers as “called-out ones.” When the word church is found in the English Bible, the word used is this one.

The second word is one that speaks of ownership and literally means “belonging to the Lord.” This is the word that is transliterated into the actual word church. This Greek word is only used twice in the New Testament and is never used directly naming the church (1 Corinthians 11:20; Revelation 1:10).


A local church is normally defined as a local assembly of all who profess faith and allegiance to Christ. Most often the Greek word ekklesia is used in reference to the local assembly (1 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 11:8). There is not just one specified local church in any one area necessarily. There are many local churches in larger cities.


The universal church is the name given to the church worldwide. In this case the idea of the church is not so much in the assembly itself but rather in those constituting it. The church is the church even when it is not holding an official meeting. In Acts chapter 8 and verse 3, one can see that the church is the church even when they at home. When examining the actual text of Acts 9:31, one can observe that the King James rendering of the word churches should actually be the singular church which describes the universal church not just the local churches.

Some may try to describe the universal church as the invisible church. Be careful not to do this. The universal church is never described in scripture as invisible, and surely it was not meant to be invisible. Here are more verses that talk about the universal church: 1 Corinthians 12:28; 15:9; Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18.

Recommended Resource: The Master's Plan for the Church by John MacArthur.

http://www.gotquestions.org/about.html

http://cometothelight.org/statement_of_faith-the_church.html


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

I would hate to think that you hide under the cloak of a local church should you need to come out against your own church should it become wayward. That happened to me.

First, in spite of bad experiences one must go by the teaching of the Word of God.
Second the teaching of the Word of God is clearly set forth in Acts 13:1-4, where Paul and Barnabas are set forth by the church of Antioch, their home church.
Third, I certainly don't "hide" under a cloak of a local church; I submit to its authority. It is a Biblical doctrine.
Fourth, if ever the local church went into doctrinal error it would be my responsibility to separate and find another. If I was in a situation where there was no other it would become my responsibility to start one.

My authority does not come from a local church. It comes from God. Should the local church walk with God then great. If the local church becomes lukewarm then it is useless.

Frankly, you are not God, and not in a position to challenge God's authority.
God has placed in authority His Church, local churches. There are only local churches, and authority comes by submission to those that are in authority no matter how much you may dislike it. No man is an island.

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Why?
Titus 1:10-11 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

There is obvious accountability. If you are one of those who refuse the authority of the local church, then the pastor may think that you are one of those "who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not."
--The authority comes from the church.

I take the universal church as all believers. They will be brought into heaven. Not all local church members are even Christians. Not all church leaders are members.

I have no idea what you are speaking about. A church leader must be a member to be a leader. Of course I don't recognize the term "universal church". if that is what you are speaking about. But your statement doesn't make sense. A leader is a member, or else cannot be a leader. That is the same as saying that Bill Gates is not (or was not) a part of the Microsoft Company. No sense.
A leader is part and parcel of that organization which he represents.

Use Scriptural terminology. All Christians are not part of a non-existent universal church. But they are all a part of the family of God. Once born again, we are born into God's family: brothers and sisters in the Lord. All over the world we are brethren in Christ--the family of God. In that sense we have some degree of unity. There are churches, and there is the family of God. But there is no such thing as a universal church, an assembly which cannot be assembled.

If the disciples can be fooled about Judas who is to say we cannot. I do think that the best indicator of a believer is one who make disciples who reproduce themselves in the lives of others.

That is why we have local churches. It is easy for one person to deceive another. It is much harder for one person to deceive an entire church. Thus the so-called universal church fails in this area also. John spoke to this problem:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
--The deceiver would not last long in a local church because of the doctrine being taught. He would not be able to be faithful. He would soon leave. They would be made manifest--that is, brought to the light. That can only properly happen in a local church setting.

One with God is a majority. We see it over and over in scripture. We see over and over the work done by one person walking with God. If I waited for a church to motivate me to make disciples I would still be waiting.

I don't understand your problem. Don't wait for a local church to motivate you. Tell the pastor what God has placed on your heart, and get the prayer support and any other support the local church may be able to give you.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Never said this GE.
You need to quote me when making such slanderous statements.
You know very well I don't believe in a universal church, so why would I make such a statement?

GE:
So what are you here slandering yourself? It's just your rhetorics is above me, if not you confirm here what I 'slandered' you about.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

‘Antitype’

In 1Pt.3:20-21, “The like figure-antitypon which now saves us” – the “antitype” – is “NOT”, ‘baptism’, “but”, is “the resurrection of Jesus Christ”. In context:

“(18) For Christ also once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit* (19) by which He … preached … (20) when once the longsuffering of God waited while the ark was being prepared; into which ark … eight people were safely brought through the flood. (21) That Antitype indeed that now saves us – a baptism NOT a washing of the body of dirt – but (the Antitype of) a good conscience (and) a satisfying answer toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ – IS HE WHO is at the right hand of God having gone into heaven where (even) angels, authorities and powers are His subjects (now).” * “Declared the Son of God … to the Spirit of Holiness.”

 

[gb93433]

I have no idea what you are speaking about. A church leader must be a member to be a leader. Of course I don't recognize the term "universal church". if that is what you are speaking about. But your statement doesn't make sense. A leader is a member, or else cannot be a leader. That is the same as saying that Bill Gates is not (or was not) a part of the Microsoft Company. No sense.
A leader is part and parcel of that organization which he represents.

I cannot begin to tell you how many members of Baptist churches over the years I have witnessed to. Apparently they must have come forward as a kid or something and were dunked but not born again. My next door neighbor a few years ago who was a pastor was married to a lady who came forward during one of his sermons and she said that she was not saved. Her dad was an evangelist too. When I was in seminary every year there were students who came forward declaring that they were not saved. Yet all of them were members of Baptist churches. Just because someone is a member of a local church does not mean they are a part of Christ’s church.

Use Scriptural terminology. All Christians are not part of a non-existent universal church. But they are all a part of the family of God. Once born again, we are born into God's family: brothers and sisters in the Lord. All over the world we are brethren in Christ--the family of God. In that sense we have some degree of unity. There are churches, and there is the family of God. But there is no such thing as a universal church, an assembly which cannot be assembled.

That is why we have local churches. It is easy for one person to deceive another. It is much harder for one person to deceive an entire church. Thus the so-called universal church fails in this area also. John spoke to this problem:

If churches were not deceived we would see them making many disciples. Too often they are lulled to sleep by the gurus they listen to and think that Sunday School and other programs make disciples when most of them simply fill the people with head knowledge.

The deceiver would not last long in a local church because of the doctrine being taught. He would not be able to be faithful. He would soon leave. They would be made manifest--that is, brought to the light. That can only properly happen in a local church setting.

Satan is alive and well. Do not ever underestimate his power and manipulative ways. Let me just give one example by asking you a question. How many people in churches today are making disciples? I know from experience it is very few. They are deceived. The gurus have taught the pastors how to “pastor” and preach with good oratory but seldom do any teach local pastors how to make disciples.

I have watched Satan walk in the door of a church and stay as I preached the truth. I have watched people snarl at me and say all kinds of lies about me when I exposed their ways through the truth of God’s word. The church became clearly divided. I watched it happen a few years ago to another pastor in a church that had its eyes on the world’s ways. Satan will stay if the people let him. Just look at Rev. 2&3. Satan will not walk in openly manifesting himself to be evil but rather truth with deception. Look at how Adam and Eve were deceived. Another way he enters is what James 1:22 talks about.

James 1:22, “But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.”
Those church leaders who are not making disciples are deceived because they are not doers of the word. Deception is all over in churches in America. So many pastors have unknowingly bought into an unbiblical church growth mentality.
I have seldom seen a man who was making disciples vary far from the truth but I have seen many who have studied the Bible for intellectual profit only go down a deep well.





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[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

All Christians are not part of a non-existent universal church. But they are all a part of the family of God. Once born again, we are born into God's family: brothers and sisters in the Lord. All over the world we are brethren in Christ--the family of God.

VICTORY!!!!!!

You've got it, now! You finally have it!

The bolded part of your statement up there IS the "Universal Church".

Oh Happy day! There is hope! :thumbs:



:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

DHK...




VICTORY!!!!!!

You've got it, now! You finally have it!

The bolded part of your statement up there IS the "Universal Church".

Oh Happy day! There is hope! :thumbs:



:godisgood:

Sorry to spoil your party. I am only using Biblical terminology.

All believers belong to the family of God.
All believers also belong to the bride of Christ.

But there is no such thing as a universal church, so why pretend that one exists when it doesn't. The word "church" is translated from "ekklesia" which always has the meaning "assembly" or "congregation". There is no such thing as a congregation that is world-wide, that can assemble universally. It is impossible. The closest organization we have to that is the United Nations, and that is only representative of each nation. To gather all the believers in the world into one place (one assembly) is impossible. Thus there is no universal church.

But a family can be scattered. I have brothers and sisters that live hundreds of miles away from me. We don't live in the same cities. We are related by blood. We will always be related.
Likewise once born again we will always be related for we are born into the family of God, and nothing can ever change that fact.

The family of God and the universal church are not the same.

 

[DHK]

If churches were not deceived we would see them making many disciples. [FONT=&quot]
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Why are you even a member of "First Baptist Church," or are you?

 

[Tom Butler]

Why are you even a member of "First Baptist Church," or are you?

I'm wondering why anyone who holds to a Universal Church even bothers with a local congregation, given such a low view of it.

When it suts them, they feel free to ignore the congregation, act independently of it, even deny that it was created by Jesus. I see some inconsistency in the argument that Jesus is the head of the church, but didn't start it.

The local church is denigrated as deceived, because some members are not true believers. Goodness, it would be imperfect even if that were not the case. We've all heard the line "if you find the perfect church, don't you join it, because it won't be perfect anymore."

Who is more deceived than believers who are of the "Universal Church," who belong to local congregations which teach error; who actually embrace some of that error; and actually promote some of that error in their mission efforts?

Or, if they actually do not subscribe to the theological error of the church they attend, why do they remain there?

 

[Tom Butler]

If you want to see classic examples of believers ignoring the local church of which they are members, just look at all the independent "ministries" that prolifierate.

How many evangelists out there have sought the counsel of their church, and operate as an arm of their local congregations?

Some ministries have set up boards of directors to whom they are supposed to be accountable. We have seen over and over how that turns out to be a sham. And why would they want to be accountable to a board, when they eschew any relationship with their local church?

That said, there are many fine men and women of God, who are engaged in these ministries, who seek to preach and teach biblical truth.

If that sounds like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth........I am.

 

[targus]

It comes down to terminology. There is one family of God of which we all are sons of daughers, and all have been adopted into when we were born again.
But the Bible itself doesn't use the word translated church "ekklesia" in a universal sense, as in "church of Christ." It always refers to it as a local church, for the word itself should be translatied assembly.
The only time all believers will be assembled together will be in heaven. We can look forward to that day.

Playing the devil's advocate...

Which particular local assembly was Jesus referring to when he said "My church"?

 

[DHK]

Playing the devil's advocate...

Which particular local assembly was Jesus referring to when he said "My church"?

It wasn't the universal church. But I will answer your question in more detail if you first answer the question, What "church" was Jesus referring to, just two chapters later, when he said:

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.