Ecclesia vs. Hetaeria

[gb93433]

Why are you even a member of "First Baptist Church," or are you?

Because that particular church has leaders who are making disciples and are living for Christ.

 

[gb93433]

Sorry to spoil your party. I am only using Biblical terminology.

All believers belong to the family of God.
All believers also belong to the bride of Christ.

You are absolutely right. Wherever any beliver is he located is a part of God's family. He is a part of the church. The same churxh Jesus talked about in Mt. 16:18.

The word "church" is translated from "ekklesia" which always has the meaning "assembly" or "congregation".

There are many words in Hebrew and Greek which are translated assembly. Synagogue is one of them, ekklesia is another and it defines a particular assembly. Later the Chrisitans used it to mean an assemblky of believers who were called out from the world. Before that it was used in secular society. You have got to know that the early Christians borrowed words from secular society and Judaism. So in a sense you are only half right.

A study into the history of the word ekklesia would quickly realize the derivation of that word. It is a word that means called out from (ek - out from; kletos - called)

ut a family can be scattered. I have brothers and sisters that live hundreds of miles away from me. We don't live in the same cities. We are related by blood. We will always be related.
Likewise once born again we will always be related for we are born into the family of God, and nothing can ever change that fact.

The family of God and the universal church are not the same.

If you believe that those who are scattered are also related then could you define what "you" mean by a universal church? I would define the universal church as those who are believers in Christ regardless of their location. When Jesus calls each believer home He will not decide their eternal destiny based on temporal location. He decided that on the basis if they are His and belong to the true church--the one He built.

 

[targus]

It wasn't the universal church. But I will answer your question in more detail if you first answer the question, What "church" was Jesus referring to, just two chapters later, when he said:

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I don't believe that I said anything about a universal church.

I was merely asking you which local church Jesus was calling "My church".

In answer to your question I would say that the context of Matthew 18:17 is directing one to one's own local congregation.

Now, which local church was Jesus referring to when He said "My church"?

 

[Tom Butler]

Playing the devil's advocate...

Which particular local assembly was Jesus referring to when he said "My church"?

The one he was speaking to at the time--the twelve, assembled around him.

 

[targus]

The one he was speaking to at the time--the twelve, assembled around him.

In that case, why did Jesus say that He would be building His church?

If the twelve Apsotles were the the church that He spoke of why would Jesus speak in a future tense about building a church that was already assembled?

 

[DHK]

I don't believe that I said anything about a universal church.

I was merely asking you which local church Jesus was calling "My church".

True. I was clarifying what it wasn't before I proceeded to explain what it was.

In answer to your question I would say that the context of Matthew 18:17 is directing one to one's own local congregation.

Now, which local church was Jesus referring to when He said "My church"?

As Tom said, it could simply refer to the assembly around him at that time, that is the twelve, and himself.
However, I believe, as you just pointed out: "it is directing one to one's own local congregation." The word is used the same way as it is used in Mat.18:17. It is used as a singular noun representative of many local churches. His church is every Bible-believing church. Christ is the head of all our churches which has the Bible as our foundation. The headship of Christ is clearly taught in the Bbile. The pastor is to submit himself to Christ, as we are to submit ourselves to the authority of the pastor.

Which church in Revelation 2 and 3 is "my church." Christ writes to them all. They are all his churches. Everyone of them is precious in his sight. He cares for them all and writes to them all.

 

[DHK]

You are absolutely right. Wherever any beliver is he located is a part of God's family. He is a part of the church. The same churxh Jesus talked about in Mt. 16:18.

No it isn't. What makes you think that the local assembly spoken of in Mat.16:18 is universal. You are simply reading your own biased theology into a verse and making it say what you want it to say.
There is no such thing as a "universal assembly." It is a contradiction of terms. One cannot have an assembly that cannot assemble. How is this possible? You have never answered that yet.

The word "church" is translated from "ekklesia" which always has the meaning "assembly" or "congregation".

There are many words in Hebrew and Greek which are translated assembly. Synagogue is one of them, ekklesia is another and it defines a particular assembly. Later the Chrisitans used it to mean an assemblky of believers who were called out from the world. Before that it was used in secular society. You have got to know that the early Christians borrowed words from secular society and Judaism. So in a sense you are only half right. [/quote]
Words change meaning over time. But the Bible never changes.
Nowadays the word church means building, but that is not the Biblical definition.
Nowadays the word conversation means speech, but in the KJV it meant something different--behavior.
--You talk about a word changing meaning in a later period of time. So what! That is not the meaning that it had during Biblical times. It meant assembly--always. It had no other meaning during Biblical times. The fact that synagogue also means assembly doesn't change anything. If anything it would only strengthen my case. Synonymns are used frequently in the Bible.

A study into the history of the word ekklesia would quickly realize the derivation of that word. It is a word that means called out from (ek - out from; kletos - called)

I am quite aware of the deirvation of the word. It comes from two Greek words, meaning out of. So what. That doesn't change the actual meaning--assembly. If you want to be specific then, it is a called out assembly. However the derivation of a word doesn't define the word. Otherwise Sunday would be the day we worship the Sun, and Thursday is the day that we worship Thor. Is that what you do?

If you believe that those who are scattered are also related then could you define what "you" mean by a universal church?

I don't define a "universal church" because it doesn't exist and cannot exist. It is a contradition of terms. One cannot have a universal assembly--an assembly that cannot assemble. It is impossible. It does not exist.

I would define the universal church as those who are believers in Christ regardless of their location. When Jesus calls each believer home He will not decide their eternal destiny based on temporal location. He decided that on the basis if they are His and belong to the true church--the one He built.

And you would be wrong. Assemblies by their very definition cannot be universal. The only place where all believers can be assembled together is in heaven. If you are saying that then I will agree with you. If you use it in a futuristic sense alone then I will consider it. For all believers will assemble together in heaven. But they can't do that as long as we live on earth. We have a family here. We are born into the family of God. But the family of God never assembles in one place and therefore cannot be rightly called a church. There are churches not The Church.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And you would be wrong. Assemblies by their very definition cannot be universal. The only place where all believers can be assembled together is in heaven. If you are saying that then I will agree with you. If you use it in a futuristic sense alone then I will consider it. For all believers will assemble together in heaven. But they can't do that as long as we live on earth. We have a family here. We are born into the family of God. But the family of God never assembles in one place and therefore cannot be rightly called a church. There are churches not The Church.

An assembly of all those called out of the world. That is universal. They are assembled together under christ. This is why I can pray for my brother or sister and call them that in Russia or Kenya, or anywhere else in the world. Why because we are assembled by being called out of the world and to Christ. They are no less my brother or sister in the Lord though they go to church in a different location or meet with in a different building. BTW the modern conotation of church is not just building as you suppose. But the congregation or body of believers. This is what Jesus was building. Not independent buildings but a world wide body of believers. Which you term family. Family is also an assembly.

 

[Tom Butler]

...why did Jesus say that He would be building His church?

If the twelve Apsotles were the the church that He spoke of why would Jesus speak in a future tense about building a church that was already assembled?

Well, let's define building. It means adding elements until you have a complete building. The twelve were the core foundational group, from which he built a group of followers numbering at least 120 by the day of Pentecost.

Let's consider church planting as an example. When a new church is planted, it might start with five, ten, twenty people. It is no less a church with 20 members than it is with 1,000.

Jesus also said I will build my church. I take that to mean that he would do it personally, during his earthly ministry. One might try to equate the church with a building in progress, which is really not worth much until it's completed. Since the church is not a building, but people, the analogy doesn't work.

 

[Tom Butler]

An assembly of all those called out of the world. That is universal. They are assembled together under christ. This is why I can pray for my brother or sister and call them that in Russia or Kenya, or anywhere else in the world. Why because we are assembled by being called out of the world and to Christ. They are no less my brother or sister in the Lord though they go to church in a different location or meet with in a different building. BTW the modern conotation of church is not just building as you suppose. But the congregation or body of believers. This is what Jesus was building. Not independent buildings but a world wide body of believers. Which you term family. Family is also an assembly.

So, that which does not physically assemble, assembles. I think this is called turning the language on its head.

 

[DHK]

An assembly of all those called out of the world.

Then it is not an assembly is it? Could they all gather in your house? If not, then where? Don't you guys know what an assembly, a gathering, a congregation is? It is a get-together. "Where two or three are "gathered together..." Not where the world is gathered together. Speak in realities; not in the imaginary.

That is universal. They are assembled together under christ.

Where? When? At what time? Who are the deacons? When will the offering be taken up? Who will be singing specials, if any? Have you found a place yet?

This is why I can pray for my brother or sister and call them that in Russia or Kenya, or anywhere else in the world. Why because we are assembled by being called out of the world and to Christ.

You need a dictionary brother. Look up the word "assembled."
There is no one that is Russia assembled together with Kenya. You are dreaming. That is imaginary. People assemble together in one place. Think of Matthew 18:20

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
--Gathered together; assembly--the same thing.
Go back three verses earlier in the Darby translation:

Matthew 18:17 But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer.
--The "assembly" that is "gathered together" is the local church.

They are no less my brother or sister in the Lord though they go to church in a different location or meet with in a different building. BTW the modern conotation of church is not just building as you suppose.

I never said it was a building. But I do insist that a local church is a gathering in a local place. The early believers in Rome met in the catacombs (cemetaries). But it was a place, a local place. There were no church buildings until 250 years after the death of the apostles. No, it isn't the building at all. And I never said it was.

But the congregation or body of believers. This is what Jesus was building. Not independent buildings but a world wide body of believers. Which you term family. Family is also an assembly.

Yes, a church is a congregation of believers.
And Jesus is the head of each and every congregation of believers that are Bible-believing churches.
There is no such thing as a universal assembly. It is a contradiction of terms. It just doesn't make sense. There is no such thing as a pagan church. There is no such thing as an unbaptized disciple. There is no such thing as a prayerless prayer warrior. These are the the things that you are trying to tell me exist. They don't make sense.

 

[gb93433]

So, that which does not physically assemble, assembles. I think this is called turning the language on its head.

Some missionaries will not see a local assembly sometimes for years. Yet they are still a believer and not part of a local assembly. An example might be William Carey who went to live and work in another country for the purpose of winning people to Christ. My understanding is that he won one to Christ after 11 years.

 

[gb93433]

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
--Gathered together; assembly--the same thing.

--The "assembly" that is "gathered together" is the local church.

Where does just one person fit in?

Yes, a church is a congregation of believers.
And Jesus is the head of each and every congregation of believers that are Bible-believing churches.

What type of church are you referring to in Rev. 2 & 3?

Years ago I met a young lady who came to know Christ and received him while studying as a student at BYU. She came to Christ by reading her Bible. Her family was not happy at all. She did not attend a Bible believing church at all. Yet I am convinced to this day that she was a part of Christs' Churhc when she received Christ. It was not too long after that she quit BY and attended the local university where came in contact with some Christians and started attending a good church in the area.

There is no such thing as a pagan church.

Read Rev. 2& 3 again.

There is no such thing as an unbaptized disciple.

Ever watch a man who was not baptized lead his friend to Christ within a few hours? By the time I was baptized I had led many to Christ. When a preacher told me I should get baptized, I asked why? He had always preached that getting baptized was an affirmation of the decision I made for Christ. It was well known around campus that I was a Christian and had taken a stance. In many ways for me getting baptized was just getting dunked.

While I agree with the many examples you gave I still have not gotten answer to some I have asked. An assembly is more than one person. Where does the person fit who goes to a country to work by himself where Christ has not been named? Is he part of a local church or not? If he is not, then is he part of Christ's church? Before the days of jets it was not all that unusual for people to show up in a country by themselves to work and evangelize.

 

[DHK]

Ever watch a man who was not baptized lead his friend to Christ within a few hours? By the time I was baptized I had led many to Christ. When a preacher told me I should get baptized, I asked why? He had always preached that getting baptized was an affirmation of the decision I made for Christ. It was well known around campus that I was a Christian and had taken a stance. In many ways for me getting baptized was just getting dunked.

My testimony, in part may be very similar to yours. I also was saved, when the Lord used two friends in the Navigator's movement. I credit the Navigator's for giving me a good practical founddation in practical living. For more than one year I was discipled under their leadership. However, they never put any importance on the local church or on baptism. I never left the Catholic Church during that period of time.

Two years after my salvation the Lord led me to an IFB church where I was baptized and became a member.
In spite of two years of discipleship, I maintain to this day that if a person is not baptized he remains in disobedience to the Lord. He may thoroughly know his Bible, but lives in disobedience to the Bible. Jesus said:
"No man having put his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the Kingdom of God."
He was speaking of discipleship. And baptism is the first step.

While I agree with the many examples you gave I still have not gotten answer to some I have asked. An assembly is more than one person. Where does the person fit who goes to a country to work by himself where Christ has not been named? Is he part of a local church or not? If he is not, then is he part of Christ's church? Before the days of jets it was not all that unusual for people to show up in a country by themselves to work and evangelize.

William Carey remained a member of his own church in England.
Even the Apostle Paul remained a member of his church in Antioch, from which he began his three missonary journeys and to which he returned.
A missionary is commissioned and sent out by his own local church. It is to his local church that he is accountable. The goal of the missioary is in the Great Commission--to make disciples. After disciples are made they are "not to forsake gathering themselves together, as the manner of some is, but so much the more as we see the day approaching." That refers to the local church. Proper discipleship first leads to baptism and then leads to membership in the local church. A local church ministry ought to be the goal of a missionary, no matter how long it may take. With some it will take longer than others, as was the case with William Carey. That doesn't negate the importance of the Great Commission any.
Nor does it belittle the importance of God's divine institution of the local church.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Then it is not an assembly is it? Could they all gather in your house? If not, then where? Don't you guys know what an assembly, a gathering, a congregation is? It is a get-together. "Where two or three are "gathered together..." Not where the world is gathered together. Speak in realities; not in the imaginary.

Where? When? At what time? Who are the deacons? When will the offering be taken up? Who will be singing specials, if any? Have you found a place yet?

You need a dictionary brother. Look up the word "assembled."
There is no one that is Russia assembled together with Kenya. You are dreaming. That is imaginary. People assemble together in one place. Think of Matthew 18:20

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
--Gathered together; assembly--the same thing.
Go back three verses earlier in the Darby translation:

Matthew 18:17 But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer.
--The "assembly" that is "gathered together" is the local church.

I never said it was a building. But I do insist that a local church is a gathering in a local place. The early believers in Rome met in the catacombs (cemetaries). But it was a place, a local place. There were no church buildings until 250 years after the death of the apostles. No, it isn't the building at all. And I never said it was.

Yes, a church is a congregation of believers.
And Jesus is the head of each and every congregation of believers that are Bible-believing churches.
There is no such thing as a universal assembly. It is a contradiction of terms. It just doesn't make sense. There is no such thing as a pagan church. There is no such thing as an unbaptized disciple. There is no such thing as a prayerless prayer warrior. These are the the things that you are trying to tell me exist. They don't make sense.

You guys seem to be too caught up in buildings. This in not a church or the church. We are united in Christ and he is present everywhere through the Holy Spirit. Just because a christian is located somewhere else has no bearing on whether or not they are my brother and I have a responsibility to pray for them. If it were otherwise there should be no need to pray for missionaries and pastors at other locations. Jesus said my church. Thats not My assemblies its my assembly. And not just in Jerusalem. It is not a contradiction in terms. A senator is just as much one if he is visiting Europe as he is when in the Senate. With all the benefits and privilages of one. Hey they can even teleconferance. We are called out of this world but must live in it. We're not talking about buildings but people. Jews are Jews in Isreal or in the diaspora they are still Jews. Why should I pray for you. You seem to be picking at straws. There a levels of assembly and this was definately understood by Jesus disciples and the early church. There is a local assembly and an assembly of those called out united in Christ otherwise its a waste of time praying for each other.:BangHead:

 

[Tom Butler]

You guys seem to be too caught up in buildings. This in not a church or the church. We are united in Christ and he is present everywhere through the Holy Spirit. Just because a christian is located somewhere else has no bearing on whether or not they are my brother and I have a responsibility to pray for them. If it were otherwise there should be no need to pray for missionaries and pastors at other locations. Jesus said my church. Thats not My assemblies its my assembly. And not just in Jerusalem. It is not a contradiction in terms. A senator is just as much one if he is visiting Europe as he is when in the Senate. With all the benefits and privilages of one. Hey they can even teleconferance. We are called out of this world but must live in it. We're not talking about buildings but people. Jews are Jews in Isreal or in the diaspora they are still Jews. Why should I pray for you. You seem to be picking at straws. There a levels of assembly and this was definately understood by Jesus disciples and the early church. There is a local assembly and an assembly of those called out united in Christ otherwise its a waste of time praying for each other.:BangHead:

DHK can speak for himself, but I don't think we're caught up in buildings; we're caught up in rightly defining ekklasia as assembling, and pointing out that the "Universal Church" doesn't and can't.

I am truly fascinated with your statement that there is a local assembly, and assembly of those called out united in Christ. Again, we have assemblies assembling, and assemblies which can't assemble and don't assemble, assembling. We have local ekklasias called out to assemble, then we have worldwide ekklasias called out, also assembling.

Oxymoronic semantic contortions, I'd say.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Thinking stuff...

"You guys seem to be too caught up in buildings."

In a HUGE way. This is sometimes referred to as "churchianity"...the taking of Gods assemblies and giving them too much prominance, and sometimes giving its leaders too much authority.

"This in not a church or the church. We are united in Christ and he is present everywhere through the Holy Spirit. Just because a christian is located somewhere else has no bearing on whether or not they are my brother and I have a responsibility to pray for them. If it were otherwise there should be no need to pray for missionaries and pastors at other locations. Jesus said my church. Thats not My assemblies its my assembly."

It's so obvious from the scriptures that its just staggering how these brothers can miss it.

There have been times during my christian walk that I was between "churches" for a period of time. When moving to another city. When God had not yet plugged me into another fellowship after He pulled me out of one, etc etc.

During those times I was still every bit a part of Gods Church...his "Universal" church. He still blessed me and ministered through me, he still provided opportunities for christian fellowhip, etc, He still blessed as I worshipped Him, etc.

In time I would find another fellowship, but I never felt like I was "away" from church, but now I'm "back" in church.

I was just glad to be back in close fellowship with brothers and sisters again.


:godisgood:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinking stuff...



In a HUGE way. This is sometimes referred to as "churchianity"...the taking of Gods assemblies and giving them too much prominance, and sometimes giving its leaders too much authority.



It's so obvious from the scriptures that its just staggering how these brothers can miss it.

There have been times during my christian walk that I was between "churches" for a period of time. When moving to another city. When God had not yet plugged me into another fellowship after He pulled me out of one, etc etc.

During those times I was still every bit a part of Gods Church...his "Universal" church. He still blessed me and ministered through me, he still provided opportunities for christian fellowhip, etc, He still blessed as I worshipped Him, etc.

In time I would find another fellowship, but I never felt like I was "away" from church, but now I'm "back" in church.

I was just glad to be back in close fellowship with brothers and sisters again.


:godisgood:

Good point. If you move out of town The Lord help you because you are no longer part of an assembly! You've excommunicated yourself!:laugh: That is until you find another assembly. Do you have to be baptised again if you change churches? Boy in this day and age swimsuites are a christian requirement!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Tom Butler...

"I am truly fascinated with your statement that there is a local assembly, and (an) assembly of those called out united in Christ. Again, we have assemblies assembling, and assemblies which can't assemble and don't assemble, assembling. We have local ekklasias called out to assemble, then we have worldwide ekklasias called out, also assembling."

You cant "see" it because you arent God. When God looks down at His Universal Church, He sees "some" of that church physically gathering together in places of fellowship, while "some" others...for any number of reasons...are not physically gathering presently.

Yet God knows them intimetly, He is blessing them, and He is using them as an instrument to bless others. In Gods eyes, we are ALL assembled. We are assembled here on planet earth doing those things that God is ordaining for us to do, through the Holy Spirits indwelling and empowering.

In other words, The Lord Jesus Christ is living out HIS life in and through them just like He is with those who are assembling.

What a wonderful God we serve!


:godisgood:

 

[Tom Butler]

Good point. If you move out of town The Lord help you because you are no longer part of an assembly! You've excommunicated yourself!:laugh: That is until you find another assembly. Do you have to be baptised again if you change churches? Boy in this day and age swimsuites are a christian requirement!

Actually, you should consider yourself a member of your previous church until you find a new church home where you live.

Many years ago, members requested dismissal from a church when they moved. They were dismissed until the congregation said they were.