eeeks, Paul Crouch..

[Johnv]

Sorry, LE, people are going to believe what they want about WoF et al, regardless of whether that belief is true or not, and regardless of what WoF's actually believe. It gives people a reason to complain and point fingers.

Johnv
(who is no supporter of the WoF movement, but doesn't think it's right to be misinformed, either.)

 

[LadyEagle]

Thanks, Johnv.

I should have been a lawyer. Unfairness gets my goat.

 

[Bro Tony]

Misinformation comes also by sticking ones head in the sand and going to some statement of faith which may be the position of certain churches, but has clearly been shown to not be the position of many of the prominent WofF teachers. BTW--the horses mouth is not a statement on paper but what the horse teaches. There is more than enough valid information about the false teachings of the WofF leaders for those who want to really know. We have their own words, writtings, and television apppearances.

Bro Tony

 

[rsr]

John, you and I usually get along, but WoF is just wrong and this belief if not based upon misinformation. I've watched all of them, often at length. I had a long list of things I heard with my own two ears that should raise the hackles on believers.

I don't accuse them of preaching a different Jesus; I accuse them, with full justification, of preying upon hurting and helpless people who are told if they only have faith, and especially if they send in their checks, they will have healing and prosperity.

I am well aware of their tactics, the hypnotic suggestions and finger-snapping, the unintelligible utterances, the constant "go to the phone to make your pledge" (which is always to the TV ministry, by the way), their abhorrent suggestion that the martyrs of the faith could have had it better if they "just had enough faith."

I don't accuse them of heresy; I accuse them of feeding upon those weak in the faith.

I was listening tonight and heard a wonderful song that included "Somebody's being delivered tonight, put your hand on the television set." I kid not.

Of course, I put much of the blame on the modern church; if Christians were doing their jobs, folks wouldn't feel the need to watch such things and feel their only connection to God was by laying hands on the TV set. But they are not blameless and it is sad that millions upon millions of people think this is the substance of Christianity.

(Climbing off soapbox now.)

 

[OldRegular]

LE

First; I am not sure why a Baptist is defending the word-faith heresy.

Second: What you posted from the horses mouth is not what the horses are teaching, they are teaching heresy.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Sorry, LE, people are going to believe what they want about WoF et al, regardless of whether that belief is true or not, and regardless of what WoF's actually believe. It gives people a reason to complain and point fingers.

Johnv
(who is no supporter of the WoF movement, but doesn't think it's right to be misinformed, either.)

If you don't want to be misinformed you should take the time to read the published literature of those who have taped and studied the teachings of the word faith teachers. It is heretical.

 

[LorrieGrace]

rsr,

When you mentioned putting your hands on the tv to be healed, it made me think of Robert Tilton. I still CANNOT believe people would fall for that. He would also send prayer cloths to put under pillows, etc to be healed. Of course, he also always wanted your money. He got busted, but I saw that he is back on cable in the obscure morning hours. The man was SO phony that I was shocked to learn how much he bilked people out of.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
LE

First; I am not sure why a Baptist is defending the word-faith heresy.

Second: What you posted from the horses mouth is not what the horses are teaching, they are teaching heresy.

OldRegular, one of your sources is this:

John MacArthur writing in Charismatic Chaos, p. 290, states of the Word faith movement as follows:

Yet, John MacArthur (if this is the same one) has been accused of heresy himself.

The controversy was originally ignited by a supposed "news" item written by Bob Jones, Jr. in the April 1986 issue of Faith For The Family (a Bob Jones University-sponsored magazine). Jones quoted some remarks MacArthur had originally made in a live Q&A session at Grace Community Church sometime in the early 1970s. MacArthur's comments had been transcribed and published in the May 1976 issue of the Grace Church newsletter "Grace Today." The Jones article cited the comments without any documentation, and without noting that they were from a ten-year-old source.

In the BJU article, Jones quoted MacArthur as saying, "It is not His bleeding that saved me, but His dying." Jones then cited Hebrews 9:22 ("without shedding of blood is no remission") and intoned, "MacArthur's position is heresy."

<snip>
After an exchange of correspondence in which MacArthur thoroughly and carefully explained his original remarks, Jones wrote on October 16, 1986, saying, "I believe the position [MacArthur] has taken in this matter is a heretical position, and all the correspondence in the world is not going to affect my convictions on that point."

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/blood.htm

Do all Baptists believe the way John MacArthur believes on every point on every doctrine? It is apparent from this board that not all Baptists believe the same things. You can go to any Baptist web site and find Doctrinal Statements and yet, all Baptists don't agree with all the Baptist Doctrinal Statements.

My point is the Doctrinal Statement of the WOF is clear and available for all to see. If some WOF deviate from or add to or delete from that Doctrinal Statement, it isn't fair to judge a whole denomination on what some in that denomination preach or say. Just as it isn't fair to judge all Baptists by what some Baptists preach or say. It's too broad of a brush and and biased.

If you refuse to accept the Doctrinal Statement of the International WOF to represent what they believe, then why should anyone accept the Baptist Faith and Message as being representative of what all Southern Baptists believe? Furthermore, if you refuse to accept the WOF Doctrinal Statement as representing their core beliefs, then you are accusing all of them of being liars.

And, what started out as a critique of some of the WOF preachers has now become a blanket accusation/condemnation of the whole denomination in spite of what the denomination's Doctrinal Statement says.

 

[LadyEagle]

PS: There is an interesting thread about Original Sin going on here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2590.html

To deny or downplay or parse words about the doctrine of Original Sin is heresy, but that is the discussion going on about what is now in the Baptist Faith and Message.

I was raised as an IFB and accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior in 1957. I was always told by my IFB pastor/dad when I was growing up that Southern Baptists were liberal. Maybe he was right after all.

 

[blackbird]

LE says, "Maybe he was right after all."

No, I'm afraid that he's wrong!! Not all SBCers are liberal---just like not all IFBers are conservative fundamentalists!!!

I've said it once---I'll say it a million times---the WOFers are a disgrace to what is called "Expository Preaching"---I'm just surprised that so many people actually follow those "Horses of a different color!!!"

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by rsr:
John, you and I usually get along, but WoF is just wrong and this belief if not based upon misinformation.

Originally posted by OldRegular:
If you don't want to be misinformed you should take the time to read the published literature of those who have taped and studied the teachings of the word faith teachers. It is heretical.

These are two examples of what I was talking about. As I said, I'm no supporter of the WoF movement. I disagree with many beliefs of the WoF movement, none of which need to be listed here. However, disagreeing with them does not equate to declaring open season on them, as has been demonstrated here. I disagree with Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, and with Catholicism as well, but when someone posts information about them that's factually incorrect, I (or anyone else) should be able to correct that information without being branded a "heretic suporter" and the like. LE has attempted to correct information, and has provided documentation supporting her position. If you folks, or anyone else, has infor that is contrary (other than "I heard it here or there"), feel free to post it, and we can continue to have a healthy discussion on the topic that is RESPECTFUL of the other posters.

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
I was raised as an IFB and accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior in 1957.

I wasn't aware that someone could accept the Lord at the age of two years.

 

[mickd7]

Lady Eagle: pPraise God the SBC has snatched back the convention from moderates and is firmly on conservative ground. I attend one of the Conservative SBC churches and they are right on. There is work to do but gradually the convention is turning things around.
I was married in a IFB church and they were and are good people but they are not moving forth in these last days as the SBC are because unlike the IFB they are open to change and are not judgemental towards other Christians.
There is a move going on where Pentacostals and others are moving into the SBC. Not to change them but to embrace them.
When I got saved it was through a youth group from the Assemblies of God in a Army chapel. They were fantastic Christians and I thank God they were there at the right moment and time to minister to me. I joined a Southern Baptist church in Germany and had a great fellowship there.
Later I was filled with the Holy Ghost in a meeting with Christ for Europe and it was fantastic. When I was saved it was wonderful and my life changed but when I received the infilling of the Holy Ghost it went from great to greater.
In my 30 years as a Christian I have been a part of Church of God, Assemblies of God and Southern Baptist.
I would not trade my experiences I have had with any of them.
But I must admit that I could not and do not reconcile to some of the beliefs the Pentacostals have i,e women preachers and leaders, loss of salvation, sanctification as a seperate experience after salvation, and a few more. But they did love the Lord very much and they preach salvation through the blood of Jesus and that is what really counts.
At any rate this is why I call myself a Bapticostal for I believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are for today but I also believe the doctrine of the Southern Baptist. After weighing everything out we felt we should go back to our Baptist roots and this is what we are doing. Nothing against the precious Pentacostal believers but the Southern Baptist
is closer to doctrine for me. What I would love to see happen one day is the Southern Baptist open up to the Holy Ghost more and see a mighty move of the Spirit but in Gods time.
By the way my wife was filled with the Holy Ghost in that Southern Baptist church in Germany during a Sunday School class after the teacher taught on the subject. Now that caused a stir I tell ya.
No church or denomintion is perfect and they all can contribute to the body of believers. We may be different in some ways but we are one in Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Lady Eagle

Regarding your post about remarks attributed to John MacArthur. Suppose Jesus Christ had pricked his finger and shed some blood. Would that have provided for the remission of our sins?

 

[blackbird]

Certainly it was the shedding of blood---and paralleling that shedding is His death--the shedding was at His death---His death was because of the shedding---See??

You cannot seperate the two because they happened simultainiously!

So, OldRegular! See?? Pricking of His finger & shedding some blood is not the same as shedding His blood and dying upon the cross! See?

Fat Eagle--concerning Southern Baptists "opening up" more to the Holy Spirit??? On my salvation day---July 27, 1977---I opened up all the way, Baaaaaby!!!! Amen???

Your Southern Baptist preaching buddy,
Blackbird

 

[LadyEagle]

Certainly it was the shedding of blood---and paralleling that shedding is His death--the shedding was at His death---His death was because of the shedding---See??

You cannot seperate the two because they happened simultainiously!

So, OldRegular! See?? Pricking of His finger & shedding some blood is not the same as shedding His blood and dying upon the cross! See?

Preach it, blackbird, ole buddy, Preach it! Hallelujah!

 

[rsr]

Johnv said:

If you folks, or anyone else, has infor that is contrary (other than "I heard it here or there"), feel free to post it, and we can continue to have a healthy discussion on the topic that is RESPECTFUL of the other posters.

I have posted nothing that I have not heard myself or gleaned from these evangelists' own Web sites, for which I have provided links.

I personally, with my own two ears, heard Benny Hinn claim that Adam could fly.

I have personally watched preacher after preacher making implicit promises of blessings in return for cash. Sometimes explicit.

Others on this thread have similar testimony.

 

[Johnv]

And, in those cases, RSR, those folks would be wrong. However, I've also heard Baptist preachers say there's not a literal Hell, or that Adam and Eve were godlike, or that if you tithe, you'll get financial blessings in return, or that the KJVO is the only valid bible, etc. That dun't mean that these are acceptible Baptist thought.

Again, I'm not supporting the WoF movement, but I am supporting LE's posts with support on the topic.

 

[rsr]

I don't really give a hang about the entire WoF movement. I have never made a single comment (that I can remember) about the whole movement because I understand there are differences among congregations and pastors.

I have, however, opposed teachings that I have witnessed myself that are an embarrassment to Christianity. And TBN is full of them.

Just as I vociferously oppose someone like Fred Phelps who calls himself a Baptist and is really just a glorified (in his eyes and the eyes of his family) hater to the nth degree.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by blackbird:
So, OldRegular! See?? Pricking of His finger & shedding some blood is not the same as shedding His blood and dying upon the cross! See?
Your Southern Baptist preaching buddy,
Blackbird

What is your problem blackbird?????????? Your response to my post sounds like you are , not in a moderator. Did I say that "Pricking of His finger & shedding some blood was the same as shedding His blood and dying upon the cross!"???????????? No I did not. SEE????? I was trying to make a point to Lady Eagle related to remarks she attributed to MacArthur. SEE????? Both of you were apparently unable to understand it. SEE?????

 

[LadyEagle]

I was trying to make a point to Lady Eagle related to remarks she attributed to MacArthur. SEE?????

I DIDN'T make the remarks, OldRegular, SEE???

Spurgeon dot org made the remarks, SEE??? There is a controversy about John MacArthur even on a thread on this Board, SEE???

But since you used him as an authority, I pointed it out, SEE???

The point I was trying to make is not to trash a whole denomination because of a few wiseguys, SEE???? Baptists wouldn't want to be broad brushed as believing in heresy just because some of our own controversial and questionable preachers, have embraced heresy, SEE????

And even some Pentacostals speak out about some of these very people, SEE????? A FEW DON'T SPEAK FOR THE WHOLE, SEE????

Johnv and Fat Eagle get the point I was making, so why can't you, SEE?????

(Thanks, Johnv and Fat Eagle

)

There are PLENTY OF BEAMS in EVERYONE'S EYES, IN ALL PARTS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, SEE????? AND BECAUSE A FEW GO WHACKY OR WHATEVER, DOESN'T MEAN THEY ALL ARE!!! SEE?????

Jesus is coming back for His Bride, a Glorious Church Without Spot or Wrinkle. We Baptists better be trimming our own lamps in anticipation of the Bridegroom rather than focusing on all the soot on other lamps. And we sure better learn to Love One Another, even those Pentecostals and Holy Rollers down the Road, our Nazerene Brethren, those AG folks, and a whole lot of others, SEE????? We're gonna be spending ETERNITY with all those we don't agree with and once Jesus comes back, all this bickering and backbiting is gonna be sorted out by HIM! So you don't believe the Gifts of the Spirit are for today and healing is for today? Fine, maybe you're the ear. Maybe they are the hand. Maybe someone else is the foot. SEE??? One of these days, we're ALL gonna have the same doctrine - when the Bridegroom Comes for His Bride!

PS: And quit picking on my buddy, blackbird!