eeeks, Paul Crouch..

If that is true, that the Oneness Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, then that means the songs they have composed are not inspired by the Holy Spirit and Baptists have no business singing them in our churches. So the leaders of all the stripes of Baptists, whether they be SBC, or IFB, or whatever, should have spoken out against using this music. They are in positions of authority and responsibility. The leaders have failed the flocks of millions of Baptists. The Music Ministers in Baptist churches should not introduce these songs into our services. So Baptist Leaders have failed all of us by letting these songs in that were not annointed by the Holy Spirit and are about a false Christ. As members of our local Baptist churches, then, we must confront the wickedness that is sneaking into our hymnals. We must confront the Sacred Music Publishers. See, Marcia, it is a whole much bigger issue than posting links to web sites who warn us about Oneness and WOF and not accepting the doctrinal statements at face value of those you say are false. It is a MUCH bigger issue. And it starts at the top!

Not only that, the presence of the Lord would not be there during the singing of those hymns. Of course, maybe there are some Baptist churches that never see the presence of the Holy Spirit evident in their services anyway, if He is not welcome there.

 

I disagree, LE. I don't think any songs are inspired by the HS - only the Bible is.

I think you want me to back down because of the songs, but I am not backing down. We are told to reject false teachings, LE.

 

You would have a lot of songwriters who would really disagree with you Marcia, about not being inspired when writing songs, or anything else creative. And I disagree with you. I'm not asking you to back down, I'm saying that if what you say is really true, then the problem is a whole lot bigger than false teachings reported by web sites on the Internet.

 

So the songwriters would disagree? I'm sorry, but to say a song is inspired by the HS is like making it scripture and I don't accept scripture outside the Bible. I'm not saying there are not godly songs that give honor to Jesus Christ, but I do not think they are inspired the way the Bible is.

And it's not just false teachings reported on the Internet -- Oneness modalism was a false teaching when it was condemned in the 3rd century. These false teachings haven't gone away -- most of them originate from something older and just take new forms. WF comes from metaphysical and New Thought cults; JW's beliefs were once called Arianism back in the early centuries. Satan is always attacking the gospel by presenting something that looks and sounds like it but is actually a twist on the truth.

 

I did not say that they are.

Agreed.

 

Calm down Bro Tony: I do not agree with the oneness folks, for I am trinitarian, but I was pointing out that all denominations with doctrine we might not agree with have scripture to back them up with.
When I said they were right concerning the name of Jesus is correct for them and scripture such as Act 19:5 it indicates we are to be baptised in the name of Jesus. of course we believe we are baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Technically they are right because several scripture back them on on that issue. The oneness folks have one purpose in life and that stands on those scriptures.
What I am saying is even though they look at it differently they are still considered to be Christian because they call on the name of Jesus and in my opinion he is the same Jesus as we worship. They believe Jesus , the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and so do we. So it is a play on words of Scriptures.

 

Marcia: You are the one jumping way ahead of what I say. I did not say I was Charismatic or that I support Copeland for I do not. What I am saying and have been saying is Copeland and all other Christians that call on the name of Jesus are brethren and are not judged by doctrine but what they did with Jesus.. No I would not accept any teachings you mentioned, but I really doubt he meant it as you interpret it. I would like to see that from his own lips, first.

 

Mick,

I am perfectly calm. I do think you need to think about what you are saying before you say it. What you are saying is that there really is no difference between oneness theology and trinitarian theology, "it is just a play on words". This is not true. While we both may be monotheistic our understanding of one God in three Persons is completely different. That is why you have the doctrine of the Trinity in the Scriptures, and that doctrine is denied by oneness theologians.

God is who God is, He is not who I want Him to be, or what they want Him to be. If I were to say to you that I believe in Jesus,but I do not believe He was born of a virgin, but I still call Him Jesus and I put my faith in Him, am I placing my faith in the Jesus of the Bible. And if I put my faith in that Jesus am I saved? I guess the question for you and I is does it make any difference if a person believes in a different Jesus than the one in Scriptures? Does the denial of the Trinity change the God you are trusting in?

Bro Tony

 

I am new to this forum and have not read all the posts on this topic. I notice that discussion of the word faith movement has surfaced I have read some critics of the word faith movement. I consider the word faith movement to be one of the dominant heresies of today. This "word-faith" heresy which originated with E. W. Kenyon and Kenneth Hagin is being aggressively pushed by Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, Capps, Savelle, Avanzini, Price and others of similar stripe.

John MacArthur writing in Charismatic Chaos, p. 290, states of the Word faith movement as follows:

“Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism . It reveals that at their very core, Word-Faith teachings are corrupt. Their undeniable derivation is cultish, not Christian. The sad truth is that the gospel proclaimed by the Word-Faith movement is not the gospel of the New Testament. Word-Faith doctrine is a mongrel system, a blend of mysticism, dualism, and gnosticism that borrows generously from the teachings of the metaphysical cults. The Word-Faith movement may be the most dangerous false system that has grown out of the charismatic movement so far, because so many charismatics are unsure of the finality of Scripture “

D.R. McConnell, a graduate of Oral Roberts University writes about the word faith movement in A Different Gospel, page 186, as follows:

“There are many perculiar ideas and practices in the Faith theology, but what merits it the label of heresy are the following:
1) its deistic view of God, who must dance to men's attempts to manipulate the spiritual laws of the universe;
2) its demonic view of Christ, who was filled with "the Satanic nature" and must be "born again in hell;
3) its gnostic view of revelation, which demands denial of the physical senses and classifies Christians by their willingness to do so; and
4) its metaphysical view of salvation, which deifies man and spiritualizes the atonement, locating it in hell rather than on the cross, thereby subverting the crucial biblical belief that it is Christ's physical death and shed blood, which alone atone for sin.
All four of these heresies may be accounted for by Kenyon 's syncretism of methaphysical thought with traditional biblical doctrine “


The heretical teachings of this word faith movement are summarized by 16 points presented [page 497ff] in the Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin and revised by Hank Hanegraff.

Heresy #1)

“He’s[God is] very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6’2”, 6’3”, who weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, [and] has a [hand] span of nine inches across.” [Kenneth Copeland, quoted by Hanegraff, Christianity in Crisis, page 121]

“God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words [Genesis 1:26, 28]. These words struck Adam’s body in the face. His body and God’s were exactly the same size.” [Kenneth Copeland, quoted by Hanegraff, Christianity in Crisis, page 379]

“He [God] measured out heaven with a nine inch span ... The distance between my thumb and my finger is not quite nine inches. So I know He’s bigger than me, thank God. Amen.” [Jerry Savelle quoted by Hanegraff, Christianity in Crisis, page 122]

Heresy #2)
Faith is the literal substance that God used to create the universe, and He transported that faith with His words. Here, essentially, is what God did. God filled His words with faith. He used His words as containers to hold His faith and contain that spiritual force and transport it out there into the vast darkness by saying, ‘light, be’! That's the way God transported His faith causing creation and transformation. The way that He created the world was that, first of all, he conceived something on the inside of Him. He conceived, He had an image, He had a picture.

Heresy #3)
All things, including God, are subject to this ‘force of faith’ beause it works according to spiritual ‘laws’ of the universe. There are laws of the world of the spirit. The spiritual world and its laws are more powerful than the physical world . The world and the physical forces governing it were created by the power of faith--a spiritual force. It is this force of faith which makes the laws of the spirit world function. The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation.

Heresy #4)
The greatest thing God conceived of and created was an exact duplicate of himself. This duplicate god--named Adam-was God manifested in the flesh.

Heresy #5)
God eventually went to Adam, who was anatomically male and female, and separated the female part from the male part to make a womb-man (woman). Adam named this ‘man with a womb’ Eve. She, like Adam, was a god.

Heresy #6)
The Fall caused Adam and Eve's divine natures to be replaced with Satan’s nature. They also lost their rights of rulership to planet earth. Even God was barred from having full access to earth because Adam and Eve were under His lordship when they ‘fell’. Through their disobedience Satan became the god of this world.

Heresy #7)
God formulated a scheme to take back the earth, but in order to execute His plan He had to find a human who would invite Him (give Him permission) to work within the earthly realm. Finally, God got to a point where He had His plan ready for operation. And He saw a man named Abraham. In return for allowing God to bring the Messiah through his lineage, Abraham received unlimited health and wealth.

Heresy #8)
For centuries God visualized Jesus. Then, when it was finally time for the Messiah to come forth, God spoke him into existence through faith in the same way that He had visualized and spoken into existence everything else. Bringing forth Jesus, however, was also dependent upon whether or not Mary would lend her faith to help form the body of the Lord out of the literal ‘Word’ (confession).

Heresy #9)
While on earth Jesus was wealthy. He lived in a big house, had a great deal of money, and wore the finest clothes.

Heresy #10)
Although Jesus declared that he walked with God and that God was in Him, he never actually claimed to be God. In fact, during his three years of public ministry Jesus did not stand in a class by himself.... He was ministering on earth as a human being -- a prophet anointed with the Holy Spirit. Jesus remained sinless so He could redeem men from their Satanic natures.

Heresy #11)
In order to redeem humanity, Jesus had to die spiritually as well as physically. When He died spiritually, he died in the same way that Adam died. In other words, He lost His divine nature and was given the nature of Satan. Jesus’ death on the cross and His shed blood did not atone for our sins. The atonement took place in hell through the devil's torturing of Jesus’ spirit for three days and three nights. Unfortunately for Satan, Jesus was taken to hell ‘illegally’ because He had never sinned. This ‘technicality’ enabled God to use His ‘force of faith’ to revive Jesus’ spirit, restore Jesus’ divine nature, and resurrect Jesus’ body. Through the resurrection process Jesus was ‘born again’.

Heresy #12)
When a person is born again they experience exactly what happened to Jesus. Their satanic nature is replaced by God’s divine nature. The transformation is so identical to Jesus’ transformation that Christians become little gods (small “g”) and are as much an incarnation of God as was Jesus.

Heresy #13)
Because Christians are ‘little gods’, they now have access to the ‘God- kind of faith’, which can be used to get virtually anything they want. Christians, rather than God, have authority in the earth over Satan and sickness and disease. Consequently, believers should never pray God’s will be done.

Heresy #14)
To obtain specific desires, Christians must do three things: (1) loose the power of the “force of faith” by speaking or positively confessing whatever is wanted (e.g., ‘I am healed’, ‘I am not sick’, etc.); (2) believe that whatever has been confessed will definitely be received; and (3) ignore or look beyond the visible reality (i.e, remaining sickness, low finances, etc.) and

Heresy #15)
Everything bad, including poverty and sickness, comes from Satan. God’s people should have a completely blessed life. A Christian not experiencing such a life is either: (1) in sin; or (2) lacking enough faith to bring about what is desired.

Heresy #16)
The power of audible confession is so great that sometimes a person can unknowingly bring tragedy upon themselves by making negative confessions. For example, a woman who is mugged may have actually caused that mugging if at any time prior to the experience she made comments like, ‘I live in such a dangerous part of the city that I'm afraid I’ll be mugged’. The woman should have been saying, ‘I will not be mugged’. Similarly, someone who jokingly says ‘I feel like I'm going crazy’ may actually become insane.

The above 16 points show how the word-faith teachers have corrupted the truth contained in the Word of God into gross heresy. I cannot say that all those caught up in the word-faith movement are unsaved but thay are surely following heretical teachings.

 

Bro Tony: There is no doctrine in the Bible that mentions trinity. Man made that term up. I must reiterate that the oneness folks belive that there is one God and so do us trinitarians. It does not matter how we describe a doctrine in the Bible for if it is a wrong teaching concerning anything but salvation it has nothing to do with our salvation!
Do u honestly thing that when a oneness person dies and stands before the pearly gates, and Jesus ask , why should I let you in, and the oneness person says because i believe that you are God and you die for my sins, Jesus will then say sorry but you have to go on to hell because you had a wrong notion conceerning my name.
Of corse not and Jesus will say, come on in my faithful servant , but I must tell you that some of your doctrine was wrong, but I shall now tell you like it is and you will understand.
Then Jesus calls forth a Baptist believer and says , now let me correct you on a thing or two, for one why did you deny my Word concerning my Gifts I sent your way and you said you would not be open to them for my pastor said they were not for us today. The Baptist starts bauling and says I am sorry and he joins the oneness brothers and weep together as Jesus dries away the tears and they all rejoice together and move into the mansions that God had prepared for them.......

 

Those faith teachers have some wrong concepts concerning faith but they are closer to us Baptist when it comes to faith for the Bible says that we will not receive anything a part from faith and it is imposible to please God without faith. A Baptist will say when they are praying for a miracle or healing or anything else will say, if it be thy will, but a faith person will say by faith I will receive whatever I ask for because I ask in faith believing. Let me tell you that the one that prays in faith is the one that will receive what they need.
A Baptist praying ; Lord I ask you into my heart and I ask you to save me and forgive me if it be thine will, will not get salvation, for he did not pray in faith but hope, the same with a faith person. If he prays for a healing and says I believe it done and believes in his heart that he will be healed, then since God cannot lie , if we ask in faith concerning something we need , then we shall obtain that thing.

 

Jeus is Lord

 

Old Regular, again, this list you have presented hese are things someone has written about the WOF movement and are not directly sourced from them.

But I am curious how some of these, in particular, are heresies. In fact, I will start threads about them.

 

LE says, "I am curious how some of these, in particular, are heresies."

LE---you don't have to be a spiritual "Rocket Scientist" to figure the heresies that FE listed---listen to the WOF "boys and girls" long enough with a discerning spirit---and you'll pick up on every one of 'um!!

Blackbird

 

blackbird, I'm starting threads with the ones I question in the Theology section. There are several that I'm looking at and wondering if they are truly heresies or errors or if they are errors at all. Not everything that is disagreed upon is a heresy or an error, either, and to call them heresies is just flat out, well, wrong, no matter who does it or their reason for doing it.

 

They are sourced from recordings of speeches by the word-faith people.

 

OldRegular says, "They are sourced from recordings of speeches by the word-faith people."

Many of these(if not all)speeches are documented in MacArthor's book-- "Charismatic Chaos" as well as other reliable sources

I would personally advise the study of these particular books OVER listening to the WOFers themselves---for fear that the listener will be caught up in the "Vortex" of the heresies---a "Vacuum Cleaner" that will suck up your mind---then everything you have in your pocketbook, wallet, and checkbook afterwards!!!

 

LOL, blackbird.

 

Good advice Blackbird. A casual listening of these folks will not necessarily pick up their heretical teachings. MacArthur's book is excellent. Hanegraff also has a book out called Christianity in Crisis.

 

Actually, WF teachers say that we should not ask according to God's will but use faith as a force to get what God is supposed to give us. They also say that we can create what we want with our lips and mouths.

I think you are being disingenuous. I gave links that give direct quotes. I have heard some of these things when Copeland, Hagin, and others speak. So don't believe me if you don't want to. Don't believe all the careful documentaton that has been going on for years on the WF movement. There is a reason their teachings are known and not accepted as biblical. People are not making this up. I'm not going to keep saying this.

And it is not true that all people who call on the name Jesus are brethren -- it has to be the right Jesus. I've hammered on that over and over but you don't seem to get it for some reason. People are not calling on the Lord of the Bible when that lord did not atone for sins on the cross, did not become Christ until baptized, and had to take on a sin nature, becoming "born again" in hell in the presence of Satan. That's NOT my Lord.