eeeks, Paul Crouch..

Marcia,

I appreciate your posts and the sites that you mention. Keep up the good work!

 

Well, the argument could be made that the doctrine of OSAS or eternal security is a false teaching and that would be pretty destructive, if it is, considering a lot of people think they are saved because of the doctrine of eternal security. I believe it was first embraced by Augustine, who also believed in infant baptism which Baptists reject. Correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure someone will, LOL.)

I would think the eternal security doctrine (if in error) would be far more damaging and have greater consequences, eternal consequences, in fact, than some of the doctrines the WOF embraces, which, according to their Statement of Faith, don't seem to be in error.

 

While I'm no Kenneth Copeland fan, I find myself agreeing with the scope of what LE is saying here. Surprising, I know. Please get me a chair.

I don't wish to get into the middle of the arguement, here, but I feel it necessary to interject some sound advice for all. We need to learn discernment between those preachers with whom we disagree, dislike, or just aren't our cup of tea, and those who are truly false teachers or wolves in sheep's clothing. Just because we disagree or don't like someone, doesn't mean theyr' false teachers. If that were true, then we ourselves are false teachers, because we've all disagreed here.

 

I agree with JohnV, let's examine the teachings, as I believe Marcia has. This had started out with the OP title to be about a person, it has developed into looking into doctrine. There definately are differences in doctrine here on the board, that is in understanding, not in substance. What Marcia is trying to show is how primary doctrines of Christ, salvation, God have been changed by these false teachers. Again, we are called to do that in the Word of God. It is not about do we like someone, it is about what is being taught.

Bro Tony

 

I have been saying all along that we should not throw out the baby with the bath water and that is what we do when we imply that folks like Copeland cant be saved just because they teach some goofy doctrine. Of course debate such things and call them on it, for that is what I do when I feel strongly enough about something.
I have to call down the IFB quite a lot because of their intolerance to other Christians especially our Pentacostal brethren.
Lady Eagle, you have a level headed approach and I agree with your opinions on these subjects.
Now I know for a fact that some IFB churches have indicated that Pentacostals are not Christian because of what they preach. My own sister is a dried in the wool IFB and one time while visiting their home I read a treatise from her church that was titled ,40 ways Pentacostals are of the devil, now I dont know about you but if you say someone is of the devil, then they cant be a Christian, if u know what I mean.
I say keep your opinions and thoughts about other Christians out of the pulpit and instead stick to how we can live Holy lives and serve the Lord and each other.
Copeland is as much a Christian as we are and so are the Crouches and others for there is no doubt they love the Lord with all their heart regardless of some their particular beliefs .

 

Just fyi, I am not IFB. I have never event attended an IFB church and, in fact, did not even know what they were until about 4 or 5 yrs. ago. I was saved late in life out of New Age, astrology, occult practices, Eastern beliefs such as reincarnation, etc. I am not influenced by IFB teachings, which seem to be a chip on your shoulder.

Whether Copeland or the Crouches are Christians or not is not the issue. The issue is what they are teaching and promoting.

Copeland teaches:
God has a body
Jesus did not become Christ until baptized
Jesus did not atone for sins on the cross
Jesus went to hell to fight Satan to pay for our sins
Jesus took on a sin nature

If you okay with the above teachings, then I can see why you want to keep defending Copeland, but I would have to exhort you to flee these beliefs.
These teachings are a slap in Jesus' face.

The Crouches endorse and promote teachers who teach the above heresies, and they promote Oneness teachers who deny the Trinity.

I can say with no problem that those who deny the Trinity are not Christians. Now, isn't it strange that Christians would promote those who deny an essential of the Christian faith? Why would they do this? Either a lack of discernment or they themselves accept this.

I cannot fellowship with Oneness or WF teachers myself because we are called to reject and repudiate these teachings that deny the faith.

If you are okay with these teachings, then no wonder you don't like what I say.

 

Just an afterthought here:
I find it highly ironic and incredibly sad that when I was a New Ager many Christians made fun of peole like me because I believed in reincarnation, believed in astrology (though you would be amazed how many Christians I talk to like astrology), had a spirit guide, was pro-choice, etc. but now it seems there are Christians who have no problem with the teachings of the Bible that led me to Christ.

I think it's sadder that a Christian accepts teachings such as the Word Faith teachings than it is that someone believes in reincarnation. At least the unbeliever has more of an excuse. As Christians, we should know better: we are called to cling to what is good, to reject evil, to be discerning, to reject false teachings, to recognize that the servants of Satan disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness (this means they will look like Christians), and to test the spirits.

Yet when a teaching is shown by the Bible to be obviously false (such as God having a body or Jesus not paying for sins on the cross), some peole get upset by this and don't want any criticism of this false teachings. This really blows my mind.

 

This sentence from aboe, "but now it seems there are Christians who have no problem with the teachings of the Bible that led me to Christ" should be

"but now it seems there are Christians who have no problem with teachings that deny the teachings of the Bible that led me to Christ."

 

And I would agree with you, but you are invalidating what people clearly post on their web sites. Especially with a big organization such as WOF International, a reasonable person would accept what they post as a doctrinal statement to be that's what they believe. Yet you dismiss it as though it doesn't exist.

 

LE, the reason their Stmt of Faith means little is because what the WF teachers have actually said, been quoted to say, heard to have said, are documented to have said and taught, etc. The Stmt of Faith means nothing if one teaches contrary to that OR if the terms means something else.

As others have said, the WF teachings are well known and documented. Do you think I'm making these things up? Are former WF followers making it up? Are others on this board making it up? Are people who have been in WF and now have ministries re WF making it up? You would rather believe the Stmt of Faith than many fellow believers and Christian ministries who have followed the WF teachers and who know what WF teacher say and have documented it.

When I was brand new believer, I was listening to a so-called Christian radio station. I heard a man preaching. He was saying he never gets headaches because as soon as he thinks he will get one, he simply thinks and states, "I am not getting a headache." That is why, he continued, he never has had a headache for 25 years. As soon as I heard this, I was astounded as this is what they teach in the Unity Church (a New Thought church) and what they teach in some areas of New Age. I knew it was not Biblical.

I found it this man was Kenneth Hagin. Of course, I had never heard of him. I researched and got materials on him and WF teachings. I read their own words - this was starting back in early 1991. I have been studying them off and on since then. I have talked to WF followers and former WF followers. Their beliefs are related to my ministry and I am often asked about WF because so many Christians run into this.

You just need to so some research -- you can't always take a Statement of Faith for what it is. I've seen the Statement of Faith on sites of cults that sounded fine. But either the Stmt of Faith does not disclose all, or it's not totally honest, or they mean different things by the terms they use.

 

Here's a list of articles on Word Faith from a reputable Christian ministry that has been dealing with this area for many years.
http://www.watchman.org/search/watchman_VSearchResult2.cfm

Here's an excerpt from the first article, a Profile of the Word Faith Movement at
http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

 

More...

One should ignore the overwhelming evidence from fellow believers and ministries who have studied WF for years.

 

That should be, "One should not ignore the evidence."

 

Marcia, thanks for posting those, but I've already read them on the Internet.

Since we are being totally honest, I wonder if you have ever confronted any of these WOF teachers or personally contacted the WOF International regarding the links you provide and about the misinformation they list on their web site. Actually I think it would be fair and informative for you to arrange a debate with one of the leaders in the WOF denomination and question them in person, face to face, via chat room, or something, so we could all learn just what is true and just what is false from the horse's mouth.

As we all know, we can find anything on the web.

 

Too many people have talked with them and heard their teachings, LE. I don't need to confront them. I doubt they would even talk to me anyway, but that isn't the issue.

They are false teachers -- I do not need to debate or confront them to know this.

 

Well Marcia you have finally got to the point that I have being trying to get you to and that is , the salvation of Copeland is not the issue but his teaching. I could not agree more and now that is settled we can move on.
I agree that his teaching is not for me and never has been. When I see him or his wife on I move on by and that is what you should do.
And since you want to stick to the basic tenents of our faith, we must go to the only one that counts and that is ( we are saved by faith thru grace in Jesus and his atoneing blood) and all the other doctrine though important will not get one soul into heaven so I deduce that if the oneness crowd believe in Jesus and his atoning blood then they are saved for that is all it takes. They believe in the Father , Son and Holy Ghost but not as we do but it is the same Jesus as we teach. Now I would never go to one of their churches for they are weird but I do believe they are in the realm of Christianity just as 7th day Adventist, Catholics and all the rest that call on the sweet name of Jesus.
Your problem seems to be that someone taught you the things you believe and you have been hard on others when you should be sympathetic to others since you yourself was accepted into the fold with your background.
My advice to you would be to love all the brethren and let Jesus take care of who knows him and who does not.
As for TBN I must reiterate that they have all kinds of shows on but many times you will see a addendum that says they do not neccassarily agree with opinions or teachings that others broadcast. There are some great shows on TBN and some not so good, so my dear Christian watch those you like and let others watch what they like and dont worry about it. You will be happier and the Lord will love you for it.

 

Why do you say I "finally got to the point" of saying the teachings of Copeland are the issue and not his salvation? I NEVER made his salvation an issue -- I never even touched on it. Why do you say this to me? You are implying I said things I never said, mickd7.

Excuse me, but you are wrong. Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Their Jesus is also God the Father. So when Jesus prays in the Bible to His father, He is speaking to Himself. Their belief is that God is taking on roles -- there is no Trinity, no fellowship and relationship between Father, Son, and HS because they are all the same being. This was declared a heresy back in the 3rd century; that is why they are not accepted in the Christian churches as fellow believers. Their Jesus, God, and HS are not the same as the Bible. That's the whole point.

Why do I have a problem? I think you have a problem of wanting to acccept teachings against the Bible as okay. You seem to think it's wrong to evaluate and reject false teachings. And I'm supposed to be grateful that Christians accepted me "with my background?" Are they supposed to only accept certain people who believe in Christ??

I do love the brethren. What makes you say I don't?

What you say is not what the Bible says. Jesus did not tell us to ignore false teachings, and most of what is on TBN is false teaching (with a very few exceptions). I think you need to read 2 Peter 2.

Peace,
Marcia

 

Hmmm....interesting from the Nash website, rsr.

This is true - millions of Muslims in the Middle East and that whole area of the world are turning to Jesus Christ from the Jesus Film Project.

John Ashcroft, Colin Powell, and Don Evans resigned from the Bush Administration. Those are three men in high places of government. Hmmmm.....