eeeks, Paul Crouch..

[LorrieGrace]

Marcia,

I appreciate your posts and the sites that you mention. Keep up the good work!

 

[LadyEagle]

False teachings are destructive because they come from Satan, not from God.

Well, the argument could be made that the doctrine of OSAS or eternal security is a false teaching and that would be pretty destructive, if it is, considering a lot of people think they are saved because of the doctrine of eternal security. I believe it was first embraced by Augustine, who also believed in infant baptism which Baptists reject. Correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure someone will, LOL.)

I would think the eternal security doctrine (if in error) would be far more damaging and have greater consequences, eternal consequences, in fact, than some of the doctrines the WOF embraces, which, according to their Statement of Faith, don't seem to be in error.

 

[Johnv]

While I'm no Kenneth Copeland fan, I find myself agreeing with the scope of what LE is saying here. Surprising, I know. Please get me a chair.

I don't wish to get into the middle of the arguement, here, but I feel it necessary to interject some sound advice for all. We need to learn discernment between those preachers with whom we disagree, dislike, or just aren't our cup of tea, and those who are truly false teachers or wolves in sheep's clothing. Just because we disagree or don't like someone, doesn't mean theyr' false teachers. If that were true, then we ourselves are false teachers, because we've all disagreed here.

 

[Bro Tony]

I agree with JohnV, let's examine the teachings, as I believe Marcia has. This had started out with the OP title to be about a person, it has developed into looking into doctrine. There definately are differences in doctrine here on the board, that is in understanding, not in substance. What Marcia is trying to show is how primary doctrines of Christ, salvation, God have been changed by these false teachers. Again, we are called to do that in the Word of God. It is not about do we like someone, it is about what is being taught.

Bro Tony

 

[LadyEagle]

 

[mickd7]

I have been saying all along that we should not throw out the baby with the bath water and that is what we do when we imply that folks like Copeland cant be saved just because they teach some goofy doctrine. Of course debate such things and call them on it, for that is what I do when I feel strongly enough about something.
I have to call down the IFB quite a lot because of their intolerance to other Christians especially our Pentacostal brethren.
Lady Eagle, you have a level headed approach and I agree with your opinions on these subjects.
Now I know for a fact that some IFB churches have indicated that Pentacostals are not Christian because of what they preach. My own sister is a dried in the wool IFB and one time while visiting their home I read a treatise from her church that was titled ,40 ways Pentacostals are of the devil, now I dont know about you but if you say someone is of the devil, then they cant be a Christian, if u know what I mean.
I say keep your opinions and thoughts about other Christians out of the pulpit and instead stick to how we can live Holy lives and serve the Lord and each other.
Copeland is as much a Christian as we are and so are the Crouches and others for there is no doubt they love the Lord with all their heart regardless of some their particular beliefs .

 

[Marcia]

Postd by mickd7
Copeland is as much a Christian as we are and so are the Crouches and others for there is no doubt they love the Lord with all their heart regardless of some their particular beliefs.

Just fyi, I am not IFB. I have never event attended an IFB church and, in fact, did not even know what they were until about 4 or 5 yrs. ago. I was saved late in life out of New Age, astrology, occult practices, Eastern beliefs such as reincarnation, etc. I am not influenced by IFB teachings, which seem to be a chip on your shoulder.

Whether Copeland or the Crouches are Christians or not is not the issue. The issue is what they are teaching and promoting.

Copeland teaches:
God has a body
Jesus did not become Christ until baptized
Jesus did not atone for sins on the cross
Jesus went to hell to fight Satan to pay for our sins
Jesus took on a sin nature

If you okay with the above teachings, then I can see why you want to keep defending Copeland, but I would have to exhort you to flee these beliefs.
These teachings are a slap in Jesus' face.

The Crouches endorse and promote teachers who teach the above heresies, and they promote Oneness teachers who deny the Trinity.

I can say with no problem that those who deny the Trinity are not Christians. Now, isn't it strange that Christians would promote those who deny an essential of the Christian faith? Why would they do this? Either a lack of discernment or they themselves accept this.

I cannot fellowship with Oneness or WF teachers myself because we are called to reject and repudiate these teachings that deny the faith.

If you are okay with these teachings, then no wonder you don't like what I say.

 

[Marcia]

Just an afterthought here:
I find it highly ironic and incredibly sad that when I was a New Ager many Christians made fun of peole like me because I believed in reincarnation, believed in astrology (though you would be amazed how many Christians I talk to like astrology), had a spirit guide, was pro-choice, etc. but now it seems there are Christians who have no problem with the teachings of the Bible that led me to Christ.

I think it's sadder that a Christian accepts teachings such as the Word Faith teachings than it is that someone believes in reincarnation. At least the unbeliever has more of an excuse. As Christians, we should know better: we are called to cling to what is good, to reject evil, to be discerning, to reject false teachings, to recognize that the servants of Satan disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness (this means they will look like Christians), and to test the spirits.

Yet when a teaching is shown by the Bible to be obviously false (such as God having a body or Jesus not paying for sins on the cross), some peole get upset by this and don't want any criticism of this false teachings. This really blows my mind.

 

[Marcia]

This sentence from aboe, "but now it seems there are Christians who have no problem with the teachings of the Bible that led me to Christ" should be

"but now it seems there are Christians who have no problem with teachings that deny the teachings of the Bible that led me to Christ."

 

[LadyEagle]

And I would agree with you, but you are invalidating what people clearly post on their web sites. Especially with a big organization such as WOF International, a reasonable person would accept what they post as a doctrinal statement to be that's what they believe. Yet you dismiss it as though it doesn't exist.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
And I would agree with you, but you are invalidating what people clearly post on their web sites. Especially with a big organization such as WOF International, a reasonable person would accept what they post as a doctrinal statement to be that's what they believe. Yet you dismiss it as though it doesn't exist.

LE, the reason their Stmt of Faith means little is because what the WF teachers have actually said, been quoted to say, heard to have said, are documented to have said and taught, etc. The Stmt of Faith means nothing if one teaches contrary to that OR if the terms means something else.

As others have said, the WF teachings are well known and documented. Do you think I'm making these things up? Are former WF followers making it up? Are others on this board making it up? Are people who have been in WF and now have ministries re WF making it up? You would rather believe the Stmt of Faith than many fellow believers and Christian ministries who have followed the WF teachers and who know what WF teacher say and have documented it.

When I was brand new believer, I was listening to a so-called Christian radio station. I heard a man preaching. He was saying he never gets headaches because as soon as he thinks he will get one, he simply thinks and states, "I am not getting a headache." That is why, he continued, he never has had a headache for 25 years. As soon as I heard this, I was astounded as this is what they teach in the Unity Church (a New Thought church) and what they teach in some areas of New Age. I knew it was not Biblical.

I found it this man was Kenneth Hagin. Of course, I had never heard of him. I researched and got materials on him and WF teachings. I read their own words - this was starting back in early 1991. I have been studying them off and on since then. I have talked to WF followers and former WF followers. Their beliefs are related to my ministry and I am often asked about WF because so many Christians run into this.

You just need to so some research -- you can't always take a Statement of Faith for what it is. I've seen the Statement of Faith on sites of cults that sounded fine. But either the Stmt of Faith does not disclose all, or it's not totally honest, or they mean different things by the terms they use.

 

[Marcia]

Here's a list of articles on Word Faith from a reputable Christian ministry that has been dealing with this area for many years.
http://www.watchman.org/search/watchman_VSearchResult2.cfm

Here's an excerpt from the first article, a Profile of the Word Faith Movement at
http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

Born in 1860, E. W. Kenyon is generally recognized as the founding father of the modern Word-Faith Movement. Beginning as a Methodist, he became quite ecumenical, associating with the Baptists. Some of his work even resulted in the founding of a few Primitive Baptist Churches. Late in life, Kenyon moved into Pentecostalism. At the same time, he combined elements of the metaphysical cults, such as Christian Science, New Thought theology, and Unity School of Christianity (D.R. McConnell, A Different Gospel, pp. 31-35). "The doctrines of correct thinking and believing accompanied by positive confession, with the result of calling a sickness a symptom (denial of reality supported by a Gnostic dualism) are not found in Christian writings until after New Thought and its offspring had begun to develop them. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to state that the doctrine originated and developed in these cults, and was later absorbed by Christians in their quest to develop a healing ministry" (H. Terris Neuman, An Analysis of the Sources of the Charismatic Teaching of Positive Confession, p. 43).
Though obviously not the movement's originator, some have also called Kenneth Hagin the "grand-daddy of the faith teachers" (Sherry Andrews, "Kenneth Hagin ‹ Keeping the Faith," Charisma, October 1981, p. 24). In a survey of readers of Charisma (a major Charismatic magazine) concerning those ministers that influence them the most, Kenneth Hagin was 3rd, ranked behind only TV evangelist Pat Robertson, and the heir apparent to the Word-Faith movement throne, Kenneth Copeland (Kenneth Hagin, Jr., Charisma,"Trend Toward the Faith Movement," August 1985, pp. 67-70).

 

[Marcia]

More...

DOCTRINE
God
Word-Faith teachers claim that God operates by spiritual law and is obliged to obey the faith-filled commands and desires of believers. He not only reveals prosperity teaching supernaturally to the Word-Faith teachers, but personally and verbally confirms their unique interpretations of Scripture (Copeland, Laws of Prosperity, pp. 60-62).

They say the Abrahamic Covenant is the basis for commanding God to do His part in the covenant. Robert Tilton says, "we make our own promises to do our part, then we can tell God, on the authority of His word, what we would like Him to do. That's right, you can actually tell God what you would like His part in the Covenant to be" (God's Miracle Plan for Man, p. 36). Kenneth Copeland says, "as a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent, because it is His Word" (Our Covenant with God, p. 32). Copeland goes so far as to say that "God was the lesser party and Abraham was the greater" in the covenant between them (Copeland, Legal and Vital Aspects of Redemption, 1985, Audio Tape #01-0403).

The Faith teachers also make God into a big man. Copeland says, "God is...a being that stands somewhere around 6'-2," 6'-3," that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, and has a hand span of nine inches across" (Spirit, Soul, and Body, 1985, Tape #01-0601). Morris Cerillo, in an alleged out-of-body experience, describes God: "Suddenly, in front of this tremendous multitude of people, the glory of God appeared. The form that I saw was about the height of a man 6 feet tall, maybe taller, and twice as broad as a human body, with no distinguishing features such as eyes, nose, or mouth" (The Miracle Book, pp. x-xi).

One should ignore the overwhelming evidence from fellow believers and ministries who have studied WF for years.

 

[Marcia]

That should be, "One should not ignore the evidence."

Man
Word-Faith teachers say that not only is God a big man, but man is a little god. Kenneth Hagin has asserted, "man...was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority.... He made us the same class of being that He is Himself.... He lived on terms equal with God.... The believer is called Christ, that's who we are; we're Christ" (Zoe: The God Kind of Life, pp. 35-36, 41). "God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself...He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even" (Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham, 1989, Tape #01-3001). He also proclaims, "You don't have a God in you ‹ you are one!" (Copeland, The Force of Love, 1987, Tape #02-0028). Morris Cerillo says "the whole purpose of God was to reproduce Himself. ...you're not looking at Morris Cerillo, you're looking at God, you're looking at Jesus" (The End Time Manifestation of the Sons of God, Audio Tape 1, Sides 1 &;2).

Christ
The deity of Christ is compromised. Kenneth Copeland, in relating what Christ supposedly told him, says, "don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God...the more you get to be like Me, the more they are going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn't claim I was God. I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was with Me" (Copeland, "Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory, #15, 2 February 1987, p. 9). "Jesus was on the earth just a man, not the son of God" (Frederick K.C. Price, Tape #RP 19, May 1993). And Kenneth Hagin says, "You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was" (The Word of Faith, December 1980, p. 14).

Atonement
The very important doctrine of the atonement of Christ is distorted. Frequently Word-Faith teachers unduly over-emphasize the spiritual death instead of the physical death of Christ. "Physical death will not remove sins" (Hagin, The Name of Jesus, p. 29). In other words, it took the spiritual death of Jesus to atone for sins. "Do you think that the punishment of our sins was to die on the cross? If that was the case, the two thieves could have paid our price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God" (K. C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, June 1990, p. 7).

. . . Just a man on earth, and taking on the nature of Satan at the cross, Jesus becomes just a sinner in need of redemption. At the resurrection Jesus is a born again man from the pit of hell. "Jesus was born again in the pit of Hell....The Church started when Jesus was born again in the gates of Hell" (Charles Capps, Authority In Three Worlds, pp. 212 13).

 

[LadyEagle]

Marcia, thanks for posting those, but I've already read them on the Internet.

But either the Stmt of Faith does not disclose all, or it's not totally honest, or they mean different things by the terms they use.

Since we are being totally honest, I wonder if you have ever confronted any of these WOF teachers or personally contacted the WOF International regarding the links you provide and about the misinformation they list on their web site. Actually I think it would be fair and informative for you to arrange a debate with one of the leaders in the WOF denomination and question them in person, face to face, via chat room, or something, so we could all learn just what is true and just what is false from the horse's mouth.

As we all know, we can find anything on the web.

 

[Marcia]

Too many people have talked with them and heard their teachings, LE. I don't need to confront them. I doubt they would even talk to me anyway, but that isn't the issue.

They are false teachers -- I do not need to debate or confront them to know this.

 

[mickd7]

Well Marcia you have finally got to the point that I have being trying to get you to and that is , the salvation of Copeland is not the issue but his teaching. I could not agree more and now that is settled we can move on.
I agree that his teaching is not for me and never has been. When I see him or his wife on I move on by and that is what you should do.
And since you want to stick to the basic tenents of our faith, we must go to the only one that counts and that is ( we are saved by faith thru grace in Jesus and his atoneing blood) and all the other doctrine though important will not get one soul into heaven so I deduce that if the oneness crowd believe in Jesus and his atoning blood then they are saved for that is all it takes. They believe in the Father , Son and Holy Ghost but not as we do but it is the same Jesus as we teach. Now I would never go to one of their churches for they are weird but I do believe they are in the realm of Christianity just as 7th day Adventist, Catholics and all the rest that call on the sweet name of Jesus.
Your problem seems to be that someone taught you the things you believe and you have been hard on others when you should be sympathetic to others since you yourself was accepted into the fold with your background.
My advice to you would be to love all the brethren and let Jesus take care of who knows him and who does not.
As for TBN I must reiterate that they have all kinds of shows on but many times you will see a addendum that says they do not neccassarily agree with opinions or teachings that others broadcast. There are some great shows on TBN and some not so good, so my dear Christian watch those you like and let others watch what they like and dont worry about it. You will be happier and the Lord will love you for it.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by mickd7:
Well Marcia you have finally got to the point that I have being trying to get you to and that is , the salvation of Copeland is not the issue but his teaching. I could not agree more and now that is settled we can move on.

Why do you say I "finally got to the point" of saying the teachings of Copeland are the issue and not his salvation? I NEVER made his salvation an issue -- I never even touched on it. Why do you say this to me? You are implying I said things I never said, mickd7.

so I deduce that if the oneness crowd believe in Jesus and his atoning blood then they are saved for that is all it takes. They believe in the Father , Son and Holy Ghost but not as we do but it is the same Jesus as we teach.

Excuse me, but you are wrong. Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Their Jesus is also God the Father. So when Jesus prays in the Bible to His father, He is speaking to Himself. Their belief is that God is taking on roles -- there is no Trinity, no fellowship and relationship between Father, Son, and HS because they are all the same being. This was declared a heresy back in the 3rd century; that is why they are not accepted in the Christian churches as fellow believers. Their Jesus, God, and HS are not the same as the Bible. That's the whole point.

Your problem seems to be that someone taught you the things you believe and you have been hard on others when you should be sympathetic to others since you yourself was accepted into the fold with your background.

Why do I have a problem? I think you have a problem of wanting to acccept teachings against the Bible as okay. You seem to think it's wrong to evaluate and reject false teachings. And I'm supposed to be grateful that Christians accepted me "with my background?" Are they supposed to only accept certain people who believe in Christ??

My advice to you would be to love all the brethren and let Jesus take care of who knows him and who does not.

I do love the brethren. What makes you say I don't?

As for TBN I must reiterate that they have all kinds of shows on but many times you will see a addendum that says they do not neccassarily agree with opinions or teachings that others broadcast. There are some great shows on TBN and some not so good, so my dear Christian watch those you like and let others watch what they like and dont worry about it. You will be happier and the Lord will love you for it.

What you say is not what the Bible says. Jesus did not tell us to ignore false teachings, and most of what is on TBN is false teaching (with a very few exceptions). I think you need to read 2 Peter 2.

Peace,
Marcia

 

[rsr]

Marcia said:

"Too many people have talked with them and heard their teachings, LE. I don't need to confront them. I doubt they would even talk to me anyway, but that isn't the issue."

Amen.

Hinn and Crouch have already made clear what they think about their detractors:

http://www.raptureready.com/rapture/sspc2.html

http://www.raptureready.com/rapture/sspc4.html

And, from Crouch's own Web site:

"I am sick and tired of getting beat up by the heresy hunters on this question: Should we GIVE, expecting to RECEIVE from God? How they rant and rage against this so-called 'prosperity gospel.' After all, Jesus was poor and we should be like Jesus! We should give out of pure love for God in obedience to His word, never expecting anything but the barest of necessities until we get to heaven! They chew us up and spit us out on their radio programs, books, and newsletters.

So, let me ask you and them one eternal question: DID GOD GIVE HIS SON TO DIE, EXPECTING NOTHING IN RETURN? Well, the answer is so obvious it really does not need an answer!

GOD HAD A NEED — so what did He do? HE GAVE!

Yes, He gave and He gave the very thing He needed. His first family had sinned and betrayed Him — He lost his first son and daughter. Yes, 'GOD SO LOVED…THAT HE GAVE.' So, what did God RECEIVE? As we have shared many times — God received millions, no, billions of sons and daughters and you, dear Partner, are one of them! Praise the Lord! WE are God's reward for HIS GIVING! God lives by His own law — you HAVE TO GIVE to receive!"

And check out Aquilla Nash on the TBN Web site:

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7/14.html

And, so long as I'm on the soapbox, I once called Mike Murdock's number and asked what I could do if I didn't have any money. I was told it was just a call center and they couldn't answer that question.

 

[LadyEagle]

PROPHECY FROM AQUILLA NASH
(Read by Paul Crouch on the March 1, 2004, "Behind The Scenes" Program)

Those of Eastern descent will be divided. Where there was a oneness of purpose among them it will no longer be so, for the Lord will bring many of them to faith in Christ. Many will know that the Lord is Lord of all nations and multitudes will come to Him. This shall cause no small stir among the Eastern world. There will be a great shaking among those who follow other gods. Those who refuse the Lord will see their strength fail. The evil they have devised will turn upon their own heads.

“Fear not America for the Lord is with you. Many have prophesied in My Name the destruction of America, but I have not spoken it, says the Lord. The haters of this Nation will seek to destroy, but wisdom will prevail against it.”

This Nation will take a turn for the good in 2004. Three men in high places of government will be set aside. Those that I have raised up to take their place will be of a different spirit and it will cause great change to take place.
The righteous of this Nation shall stand up stronger than ever. Godly men and women will stand in high places and once more the world will know America is one nation that stands under the umbrella of God’s Spirit.

Many changes will occur in areas of government throughout the world. Governmental policies will change. Many for the good of the people.

Hmmm....interesting from the Nash website, rsr.

Those of Eastern descent will be divided. Where there was a oneness of purpose among them it will no longer be so, for the Lord will bring many of them to faith in Christ. Many will know that the Lord is Lord of all nations and multitudes will come to Him.

This is true - millions of Muslims in the Middle East and that whole area of the world are turning to Jesus Christ from the Jesus Film Project.

Three men in high places of government will be set aside...

John Ashcroft, Colin Powell, and Don Evans resigned from the Bush Administration. Those are three men in high places of government. Hmmmm.....