eeeks, Paul Crouch..

[mickd7]

What you are trying to say is that the only Jesus out there is the one you believe in and worship and anyone else out there that does not fit your particular description of a Christian is not Christian but false.
Pentacostals, Methodist, Lutherans etc cant worship the true Christ that you worship.
That is the real danger here in that you believe you only carry all truth.
Well we are not saved by what doctrine we might teach and not saved according to what church we attend.
My Bible says in Acts 2:21 that whoesoever that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Now who am I or you to question wheather or not someone is saved if they confess the name of Jesus.
You need to stop judging others serve the Lord and dont worry about what other brothers and sisters are doing.
Of course if you are perfect then pick up the stones and cast them, if not then let the Holy Spirit decide who loves the Lord.
I am a Baptist and I speak in other tongues as the Spirit gives uttereance I have the Gift of Discernment, interpretation of tongues and I love the Lord with all my heart and I love and will serve any brothers and sisters in Christ and I do not care where they worship or how imperfect they might be, for I know that I also am nothing but a sinner saved by grace.
If I could get my fellow Baptist to do anything it would be to stop being so judgemental of others and love each other.
Does having these Gifts make me any better than you ! Absolutely not but I thank God for them and I am edified by them.

There are blessings on TBN, Daystar and the Baptist network and it cost millions to be on the air and just like the Bakkers of years gone past if the news services could get something on them in the past 30 years, they would have done so gleefully.
They are not perfect and some of the shows are questionable, but as I say, I wont watch anything I think is not right and you all can too.
Do I believe the Crouches are Christian. Yes and also Swaggert, the Bakkers, some Catholics,and millions of others that might have some wrong doctrine but God forgives and saves all those that call upon the name of the Lord. Because we are saved by Grace thru Faith plus nothing..........

 

[av1611jim]

mickd7;
You are of course correct. "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
Which "Lord"?
The spirit brother of satan?
The cookie god of RCC?
The oneness god of the UPC?
The mighty god, but not jehovah of the JW's?
The lord krishna?
Which Lord?
The lord who got born again in hell as per Hagin, et.al.?
The lord (matreya) of the new agers?
Which Lord?
No sir. I submit your "gift of discernment" is sadly lacking as pertains to these charlatans.

Yes sir, I am saying there is only one Jesus!!! and He is the one I trust and obey and believe on.
In His service;
Jim

 

[mickd7]

Av: You are trying to be contrary with me for I in no way implied that I discerned anything about my post.
I said anyone that calls upon the name of the Lord is saved and we both know we are speaking of Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God and not some rediculeous name you throw out.
I have no idea where the Crouches stand with God nor Jimmy Swaggert, or anyone else but they profess and preach Jesus Christ so who am I to judge them. I cant and you cant. You might question some of their doctrine but only God knows who belongs to him and who does not so dont judge other Christians and call them names for this is displeasing to the Lord.
I can guarantee that you are not perfect and
have everything down to perfection as far as the Gospel goes but then again that is not required to be saved and full of the Spirit is it.
Sure the Bakkers, and Swaggert failed at one time but cant God forgive and if he can then you should also.

Another thing it does matter who preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Wheather a backsliden Christian or a woman for Gods Word does not come back void and souls can be saved and are through all these Christian organizations and they are just as saved as you or I.
You think God is going to dismiss someone from heaven just because some group u do not approve of leads folks to Christ?

 

[WallyGator]

mickd7,
Your questions raise some interesting points!
WallyGator

 

[blackbird]

mickd7----you don't think there's a need to be a Berean???

 

[LadyEagle]

All I can get on rabbit ears is PBS, PAX, and NBC.

Well, PAX is Catholic. Now what?

Agree with you, mickd7. What charlatons preach is between them and God. They will answer for what they do or don't do. Just as we will answer for gossipping and tearing down the Body of Christ and those who profess Jesus Christ is Lord. Aren't we supposed to confront one another in love, not gossip and rip people and Christian ministries we disagree with up one side and down the other? Especially on an open forum where millions of people can read our words? What kind of testimony for Jesus Christ is this when we have mean-spirited things to say about what people wear and their hair and makeup, blah, blah? I don't watch the Crouch's and I very seldom watch TBN, but I'm grateful there is Christian programming (including PAX), considering all of the rot that is on the airwaves. What would happen if all who disagreed with TBN and the Crouch's theology, etc., just shut up and started praying for them?

The Book of James in which we find references about the tongue are a clue.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by mickd7:

I have no idea where the Crouches stand with God nor Jimmy Swaggert, or anyone else but they profess and preach Jesus Christ so who am I to judge them. I cant and you cant. You might question some of their doctrine but only God knows who belongs to him and who does not so dont judge other Christians and call them names for this is displeasing to the Lord.

Wasn't Paul very outspoken about people who preached bad doctrine. Of course nobody is perfect, but to continue preaching bad doctrine should be called.


For instance, when Oral Roberts preached that he would be killed by God if he did not raise a certain amount of money and it didn't happen, this is an example of building a human empire using the God, which is just flat wrong.

You will know them by their fruits.

 

[rsr]

LadyEagle said:

"Aren't we supposed to confront one another in love, not gossip and rip people and Christian ministries we disagree with up one side and down the other? Especially on an open forum where millions of people can read our words? What kind of testimony for Jesus Christ is this when we have mean-spirited things to say about what people wear and their hair and makeup, blah, blah?"

I have never mentioned hair and makeup; that's superficial and silly.

What I object to is the constant fleecing of the faithful. What do the Crouches et al. spend their money on? They don't have open books, so no one really knows.

The fact that this is on an open forum is neither here nor there; the WoF people, by nature of their public actions, are public figures and open to scrutiny. And they need it.

 

[manchester]

What if there is a very small, minor doctrine that the Baptists have wrong? That means we are worshipping a "different Jesus" and none of us are saved. There can be no confidence in your salvation if having even the slightest error of understanding means you worship a "different Jesus." This interpretation takes the promises of the Bible and makes them void.

 

[av1611jim]

That conclusion is so full of holes that I think I will make a chees sandwich.

In His service;
Jim

 

[mickd7]

Some good points have been made and most in a civil and Christiam manner which is the way it should be for those that call on the name of Jesus.
Name calling and gossip is not neccessary and is forbidden by the Lord.
Of course doctrine should be tested and questioned but in the Christian manner. I also do not watch much on the Christian networks but there are some good shows on them all and I thank God that TBN, Daystar, etc are out there spreading the good news and souls are being saved.
When I see something I question I turn it off and I have even emailed these networks to voice my opinion but without a mean spirit.
There is a whole lot I disagree with in the Christian world out there with Pentacostals, some Baptist, and Charismatics, and others but I realize that we all look through a glass darkly right now and one day we all shall know everything as it is and again there will be tears to be dried on all of us.
The best we can do is pray for one another and love one another and let the Holy Spirit take care of business.

To the one that asked about Berean, sorry I dont understand!

 

[mickd7]

av: After reading your responses and post I knew you had to be a IFB member so I understand why you feel the way you do.
Even Billy Graham the greatest evangelist that ever lived and every other church or people in the Christian world other than your group are on shaky ground so I understand where u are coming from now.....

 

[moeowo2]

Mickd7 here's the scripture dealing with the bereans.
Acts 17:10 ¶ The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily {to see} whether these things were so.
Acts 17:12 Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.

We should always check scripture against what a preacher (or anyone) says to keep us in check.

 

[mickd7]

If Berean means we should check everything carefully against Scripture, then I whole heartily agree and I myself would not accept anything that was not Scriptural, and I believe there is more than enough Scripture that attest to the viability and need for the Gifts of the Spirit in the church today..

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by mickd7:
[QB] What you are trying to say is that the only Jesus out there is the one you believe in and worship and anyone else out there that does not fit your particular description of a Christian is not Christian but false.
Pentacostals, Methodist, Lutherans etc cant worship the true Christ that you worship.
That is the real danger here in that you believe you only carry all truth.
Well we are not saved by what doctrine we might teach and not saved according to what church we attend.

Do you understand that there is the true Biblical Jesus and then there are false Jesuses? Methodists, Lutherans, etc. are worshiping the same Jesus if it's the Biblical Jesus. This has nothing to do with denominations and everything to do with FALSE TEACHINGS. I am not judging anyone; I am judging teachings the way the Bible tells me to. As for doctrine, check out how many times 1 and 2 Timothy tell us to hold onto sound doctrine (or sound teaching in some translations -- same thing -- doctrine is teaching).

I am a Baptist and I speak in other tongues as the Spirit gives uttereance I have the Gift of Discernment, interpretation of tongues and I love the Lord with all my heart and I love and will serve any brothers and sisters in Christ and I do not care where they worship or how imperfect they might be, for I know that I also am nothing but a sinner saved by grace.

If you have the gift of discernment you would agree that saying that Jesus did not atone for the sins on the cross is a false teaching.

Do I believe the Crouches are Christian. Yes

So it's Christian to promote Oneness teachers (those who deny the Trinity) and to believe that Jesus did not atone for sins on the cross and to believe and promote the belief that you can speak things into existence like God? That's a very strange Christianity. Guess what? I don't find it in the Bible. Why do you think these beliefs espoused by the Crouches and those they promote are Christian?

 

[mickd7]

You are not getting the point at all. No where did I say that Jesus blood was not needed for atonement and anyone who teaches that are wrong.
I do not follow any of these preachers on TV except a very few and I also said that all these networks have good shows and bad shows with wrong teaching and good teaching so accept what is good for you and reject that which is not as that is what I do.
What I dont do is judge others that claim to be Christian because only Jesus knows their hearts and wheather or not they belong to him.
Let me tell you that when we all get to heaven we will see folks there we never expected to see there and not see some folks we think will be there because as I say only God knows.
We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing and no matter how screwed up ones doctrine is , if they accepted Christ and repented of their sins they will be in paradise with you and I and so you should get used to it. For if you dont you will then, if u know what I mean..
I know what you are really getting to and that is if anyone does not agree with you and your idea of correctness they are not going to make it and that is sad.
You need to stop listening to what is taught you and read it for yourself in the Word.

 

[LadyEagle]

If you have the gift of discernment you would agree that saying that Jesus did not atone for the sins on the cross is a false teaching.

Who says Jesus did not atone for sins on the cross? I know there are web sites out there that are he said, she said, but is there any proof where someone said that from their own lips from their own web site?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
If you have the gift of discernment you would agree that saying that Jesus did not atone for the sins on the cross is a false teaching.

Who says Jesus did not atone for sins on the cross? I know there are web sites out there that are he said, she said, but is there any proof where someone said that from their own lips from their own web site? </font>[/QUOTE]Copeland, Fred Price, Joel Osteen, Jan Crouch, Ken Hagin, and Joyce Meyer are some that say it. Check out the WF links I posted on the thread on Paul Crouch.

Also:
http://www.myfortress.org/JoyceMeyer.html

Here's a page of quotes on this topic:
http://www.myfortress.org/DidJesusPayForOurSinsInHell.html

Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God. Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence."
(Fred Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger June 1980.)


"The Bible indicates that for three days, Jesus went into the very depths of hell. Right into the enemy's own territory. And He did battle with Satan face to face. Can you imagine what a show down that was?"
(Joel Osteen, Sermon, CS-002 - April 23, 2000. Sermon posted on his website)


"It wasn't a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that."
(Kenneth Copeland, What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audiotape #BCC-19, side 1)


"When Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption."
(Ken Copeland, Jesus, Our Lord of Glory, Believer's Voice of Victory 10, 4 (April 1982)

 

[Marcia]

More:

"Christ's physical death on the cross was not enough to save us."
(Ken Hagin, How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01)

"There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell."
(Joyce Meyer, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make Booklet, pg. 37, 1991 edition)


Jesus said, "It is finished."; And He meant the Old Covenant. The job He had to do was just getting started. He really did the job the three days and nights that He was in hell. That's where the job was done. He was pronounced guilty on the cross but He paid the price in hell."
(Joyce Meyer, From the Cross to the Throne)


"Jesus went into hell to free mankind from the penalty of Adam's high treason...When His blood poured out it did not atone. Jesus spent three horrible days and nights in the bowels of this earth getting back for you and me our rights with God."
(Ken Copeland, Personal letter from Ken Copeland, Ft. Worth Texas, March 12, 1979)


"After entering hell and being there for three days, Jesus became born again....Jesus was the first born-again man...Jesus died spiritually for every man so that sinners could be redeemed from spiritual death...Jesus stepped out of life and tasted spiritual death."
(Creflo Dollar, Study Notes, The First Begotten Son, 04/11/04)


Jan Crouch, approvingly recited the following words from Paul Billheimer's book during a live communion service aired on TBN:
"It was not sufficient for Christ to offer up only his physical life on the cross. His pure human spirit had to descend into hell ...His spirit must not only descend into hell, but into the lowest hell....The Father turned Him over, not only to the agony and death of Calvary, but to the satanic torturers of His pure spirit as part of the just dessert of the sin of all the race. As long as Christ was 'the essence of sin' he was at Satan's mercy in that place of torment. . . While Christ identified with sin, Satan and the hosts of hell ruled over Him as over any lost sinner. During that seemingly endless age in the nether abyss of death, Satan did with Him as he would, and all hell was 'in carnival."
(Hank Hanegraaff, "Christianity in Crisis" page 164-165. Jan Crouch and Paul E. Billheimer: "Destined for the Throne," page 83-84. Quoted by Jan Crouch during "Praise the Lord," 20 August 1987)

Joyce Meyer:

Joyce Meyer teaches that Jesus did not pay for sin upon the cross, but actually went to the torments of hell and made atonement there. The following quote is from Joyce Meyer's 1991 booklet on being born again which is worded differently in the 1996-updated edition.

"During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin...He paid the price there;no plan was too extreme...Jesus paid on the cross and in hell;.God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, 'Let Him go.'; Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus...He was resurrected from the dead ¾ the first born-again man" (The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make: A Complete And Thorough Understanding Of What It Means To Be Born Again, 1991, pages 35-36, Joyce Meyer) This quote was found from the Christian Research Institute's article on Joyce Meyer which can be found by "Clicking Here".

In her 1996 edition of "The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make" Joyce Meyer states the same things but with different wording.

"Believe that Jesus did what the Bible says. Believe He is indeed the Son of God, born of a virgin. He took man's sin on the cross. He did not stay dead. He was in the grave three days. During that time, He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin." (Page 41, 1996-Edition) Notice the similar wording in this quote compared to the other quote.

 

[Marcia]

Lady Eagle, when I said check out the links on the Paul Crouch thread, I meant check out the WF links I posted on p. 2 of the thread on Charismatics.

Aside from their heretical statements on the atonement of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Copeland, Price, Hagin, Charles Capps and others repeat the false teachings of the New Thought movement, which started in the late 1800's. That Movement spawned Christian Science, Unity, and the Church of Religious Science and several offshoots of those, as well as being a major force of thinking in the New Age movement.

One of the teachings of New Thought is that one can bring about material changes in reality through the power of thought and words. This is where New Age affirmations come from (repeating something over and over so that it will come about). Copeland, Price, and others teach that a believer can manipulate special spiritual laws by using faith as a force to get wealth and health (basically, faith becomes a tool of sorcery):

Fred Price : "If you keep talking death, that is what you are going to have. If you keep talking sickness and disease, that is what you are going to have, because you are going to create the reality of them with your own mouth. That is a divine law." (Fred Price, Realm, 29).

Kenneth Copeland : "The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation. (The Force of Faith, Kenneth Copeland, Ft. Worth: Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1983).

Kenneth Copeland : "What you are saying is exactly what you are getting now. If you are living in poverty and lack and want, change what you are saying.... The powerful force of the spiritual world that creates the circumstances around us is controlled by the words of the mouth." (The Laws of Prosperity, Kenneth Copeland, Ft. Worth: Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1974).