eeeks, Paul Crouch..

[Marcia]

The link for my previous post is
http://craom.net/Hereticalsayings.htm

More from that same page: Here we see what false teachers Copeland and Price say about our sovereign Creator. If this doesn't make your skin crawl, I don't know what will.

Kenneth Copeland : "God had no avenue of lasting faith or moving in the earth. He had to have covenant with somebody. . . . He had to be invited in, in other words, or He couldn't come. God is on the outside looking in. In order to have any say so in the earth, He's gonna have to be in agreement with a man here." ("God's Covenants With Man II" [Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985], audiotape #01-4404, side 1.)

Kenneth Copeland : "I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is....The biggest one is God....I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the Fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least--that's a big loss, man. . . . Now, the reason you don't think of God as a failure is He never said He's a failure. And you're not a failure till you say you're one." ("Praise-a-Thon" program on TBN [April 1988].)

Frederick K.C. Price : "God can't do anything in this earth realm except what we, the body of Christ, allow Him to do. Now that statement is so--that's so--that's so foreign and so contrary to tradition that, like I said, if they could get their hands on me right now most evangelicals would burn me at the stake and dismember me and feed me to the crocodiles, because they'll consider that statement to be just heresy." ("Ever Increasing Faith" program on TBN [1 May 1992], audiotape #PR11.) Cf. chapter 6, 85.

And there's even more.

 

[LadyEagle]

Thanks, Marcia, but you did exactly what I asked you not to do.....here say. Anybody can post anything on the web and make it look authentic....

I know there are web sites out there that are he said, she said, but is there any proof where someone said that from their own lips from their own web site?

 

[LadyEagle]

Okay, let's start with Kenneth Copeland...

I want to see things from the "horse's mouth" in context. Not snips of things here and there that other people have posted. But let's see if Kenneth Copeland is a "heretic" (as was on the heretic poll in the poll forum).

Salvation
Salvation is a gift that is made available to those who repent, believe and confess that Jesus is Lord and that He died and rose from the dead to save mankind (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9-10). This gift cannot be earned through good deeds or by simply being "good" (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Timothy 1:9). It is a matter of faith (acting out on what you believe according to God's Word concerning salvation).

If you have come here looking for a change in your life, if you have come seeking a peace that is found only through a personal relationship with a loving God, then you are at the right place. God is ready and willing to help you—right now, and right where you are.

http://kcm.org/studycenter/salvation/


Articles at Ken Copeland web site:

http://kcm.org/studycenter/articles/#salvation

 

[Marcia]

Lady Eagle, Copeland can say that Jesus is Lord and rose from the dead and still say the other stuff, too. Remember that false teachings are usually mixed in with what is true.

Too many people have heard Copeland and recorded him. He has said these heretical things. People have given workshops on him with videos of him saying this stuff. Those quotes are real -- look up what he said in those books. Those are not made up.

I myself have heard him talk about Jesus becoming a lowly worm in hell who had to fight Satan. I've heard Copeland himself say that faith is a force and that we have to know how to use the spiritual laws in order to get money. I've heard him myself.

 

[mickd7]

It all comes back to what I have said: We are saved by grace thru faith plus nothing and no doubt Copeland believes and teaches that. In my view he is a Christian but I do not agree with much if anything he teaches and I sure do not watch him or any other Charismatic teacher. I do not believe the prosperity gospel they preach or some of the strange faith teaching but on the other hand they do preach we have to have faith to get anything from God and this is the truth as the Word says it is impossible to please God without faith, so my advice to anyone is too accept what is good and reject what is not good for you and let everyone else do likewise. Whala.
False teaching has always been there and always will be in the church that include us Baptist, Pentacostals and everyone else that call on the name of Jesus........
Why do u think there are so many denominations out there!!!!!!

 

[Marcia]

Denominations do not prove false teachings or come from false teaching; that is what Mormons always claim. Denominations show disagreement over secondary issues such as church organization, when and how to do communion, views of endtimes, views of sign gifts, having women pastors, church liturgy, church organization, etc. We do not divide with other believers on secondary issuess.

However, according to the Bible, we must divide over doctrine that goes against the essential teachings of God and Jesus Christ. I can fellowship with a believer in a different Christian denomination (and I do), but I would not fellowship with those who honor or teach false doctrines that go against the Bible.

 

[LadyEagle]

James 3:[6] And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
[7] For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
[8] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
[9] Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
[10] Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

 

[Bro Tony]

The facts concerning the Word faith teachers and their doctrine of Jesus attonement being made in hell is so well documented as to not be arguable except by those who won't deal with the facts. Marcia is right on, and this verse used by LE now on several threads has no relevence to what has been shared here.

Bro Tony

 

[LadyEagle]

Bro Tony, with all due respect, you are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. I see nothing productive or edifying in all these threads which drone on and on in negativity towards ministries and evangelists. Furthermore, I've not seen proof other than links to web sites dedicated to "exposing" doctrinal errors. Anyone who knows html can throw up a web site. Everyone is an expert on everyone else's faults and failures in the Body of Christ. Everyone is Judge without a Jury. I find it nauseating.

 

[Bro Tony]

LE,

I would definately agree with you and have on the other posts where you have placed these verses. In this thread I believe what is being dealt with now, it was not at the first, but now is the false teachings. I believe this is a good place to look at them, as long as we don't go into judging anothers salvation. I too find that nauseating.

Bro Tony

BTW--And I guess you will just have to believe me, I have a tape with Copeland making the statement concerning Jesus being the first born again man and that he was born again in hell where he paid for our sins. There is no doubt that is part of what he teaches.

 

[LadyEagle]

Bro Tony, in all fairness, I have a few of Kenneth Copeland's tapes from probably 20 years ago, and I never found anything that was out of line. Perhaps he has changed.

Here is what I found on the Internet - WOF International Doctrinal Statement - Is this heresy?

<a href="http://www.ryanhicksministries.com/wofif/doctrine.htm" target="_blank">WORD OF FAITH INTERNATIONAL FELLOWSHIP'S
DOCTRINAL STATEMENT</a>

 

[Bro Tony]

LE,

Thanks for the Statement of Faith. I find nothing in my quick reading that is heretical in that statement. If that is what is taught I would have no problem with those espousing WofF. Unfortunately, that is not all that is taught. I am glad you have old tapes of Copeland, My tape was done in the mid 90's and in it he states what I have earlier said along with others unorthodoxed statements that may or may not be heretical. The statement of Jesus' atonement in hell are definately heretical.

Also, I would remind you that not all individuals hold to a groups statement of faith. Benny Hinn was at one time affiliated with the Assemblies of God. He wrote in his book "Good Morning Holy Spirit" that there was not a Trinity but actually there were "nine of them".

It is not wrong to evaluate what men teach and to call them to account for what they say. I encourage my church to do that with all teachings, including mine. I believe the Bible tells us to do that, we must examine all teachings. And the teacher is accountable for what they teach.

Bro Tony

 

[LadyEagle]

It is not wrong to evaluate what men teach and to call them to account for what they say.

Agreed. We should call them to account. That means contacting them. Analyze, perhaps, on a public forum, but unfortunately analysis on a public forum can soon disintigrate into ugly namecalling, gossip, and false accusations, which does not edify the Body of Christ or serve any useful purpose, IMO.

 

[Bro Tony]

I agree with you my sister.

Bro Tony

 

[Phillip]

Does Kenneth Copeland believe in security of salvation? (once saved, always saved)

 

[Marcia]

Posted by LadyEagle
I see nothing productive or edifying in all these threads which drone on and on in negativity towards ministries and evangelists.

The purpose of what I post is not to be negative or to attack. It is to expose false teachings that have hurt many and continue to mislead many. People who are told that their lack of faith gives them cancer, for example, may die thinking they have displeased God. I know a woman whose sister died (she was just in her 30's) of an illness. On the plane going to the funeral, this woman was seated next to a Word Faith follower (though she did not know that at first). When she told the woman about her sister, the WF woman told my friend that her lack of faith when praying for her sister to recover had probably led to the sister's death. This is the kind of thinking spawned by these teachings. This is what it results in.

I can give many other examples from people I know and those I've heard about from ministries that deal with this area. People whose children die believe their lack of faith has led to this and then feel guilty or maybe they lose whatever faith they had. Many have left the WF churches because they were sick and felt guilty -- they are so defeated they never enter a church again.

Teachings have real consequences on the lives of real people. What these WF teachers teach is not only not from the Bible but it is destructive and evil. It is to be renounced and denounced.

I appreciate Bro Tony's remarks. These teachings are well documented. I have heard them and others have heard them and documented them. I would never post something about another religion or another teaching in a forum unless I was absolutely sure of the sources and the truth of what is being said. I have a full-time ministry and cannot risk that ministry by making false statements about someone.

I do not promote name calling or making fun of people and have not done so.

As for Phillip's question, I am not sure if Copeland believes in OSAS, but in light of his heretical teachings on Christ's death and other areas, I think that is somewhat irrelevant. He does teach that if you are sick or poor, it is your lack of faith. He claims to know the spiritual laws whereby one can use faith to get healing and wealth. That is what he focuses on.

Keep in mind that the Bible tells us that false teachers arise from within the church and that hersies are "secretly" introduced. How are they secret? Because they are disguised and seem to align with scripture. It is called scripture twisting and these teachers are masters at it.

 

[LadyEagle]

Many have left the WF churches because they were sick and felt guilty -- they are so defeated they never enter a church again.

People have left all kinds of churches, Baptist included, because they believed the church to be full of hypocrites, too.

Well, I posted the WOF Statement of Faith. So people have deviated from that. People deviate from a lot of Statements of Faith from many denominations, Baptists included. Have no doubt Baptists would be considered heretics by some.

But I guess you are on a crusade, so carry on if you must. Don't let me interjecting WOF Statement of Faith stop you, LOL.

 

[Marcia]

I am not on a crusade, LadyEagle. We are told to expose false teachings and you apparently have no idea of how destructive the WF teachings are since it seems you are totally unaware of them.

Yes, people leave churches for many reasons, but when it is due to false teachings, that is saddest of all. When people are told things like my friend on the plane going to her sister's funeral, that is really sad. False teachings are destructive because they come from Satan, not from God.

I have posted several times what they teach. It is documented. I know people who have attended these churches and I have talked to WF followers themselves. I know ministries that deal with this. Bro Tony backs me up on this.

Mormons can say Jesus is Lord, too. In fact, they will say that Jesus died for their sins. But they are not Christians.

The WF people say all the right things but they mean different things by the terms. Since Copeland believes God has a body, what kind of God is he talking about when he mentions God? Since he believes Jesus did not atone for our sins on the cross, which Jesus does he preach? Since he believes that faith is a force for getting what we want, is this the faith of the Bible? I think not.

 

[LadyEagle]

Perhaps you should contact Kenneth Copeland and ask him to change the Statement of Faith on his web site. Obviously his Statement of Faith is a lie, constructed to deceive and ensnare people. The Baptist Board should be glad you are here to "expose" everything and everybody who doesn't meet your criteria since no one ever heard of WOF until you came to the board.

Mormons can say Jesus is Lord, too. In fact, they will say that Jesus died for their sins. But they are not Christians.

Really? There are no Mormons who are Christians? How about Catholics? No Catholics either? Just who, in your opinion, is going to "make it?"

 

[Bro Tony]

Really? There are no Mormons who are Christians? How about Catholics? No Catholics either? Just who, in your opinion, is going to "make it?"

I think this is going to the extreme LE, and not at all what Marcia is talking about. I would encourage you to step back and reread what is being said.

No one is saying there are not saved people in every religious group. But, I think it must clearly be said that if a person who attends the Mormon Church or the Catholic Church they did not get saved by those churches doctrine. They both clearly do not teach biblical salvation. That is what the issue is doctrine, and the teaching of false doctrine, by any group. We are called to expose these false teachings, because if a person buys into them they will put their faith in something that has not power to save. Within the Baptist groups today there is the movement of open theism, this false doctrine needs to be examined and exposed.

There is a great danger when the church just stands by the way side and refuses to say anything about teachings that are being espoused in the name of Christ, which in reality will cause people to miss Him. I commend any Christian who is involved in a genuine ministry of apologectics. They are doing what Jude said to do in earnestly contenting for the faith. I am not for anyone judging the heart of another, that belongs to God, that is not what Marcia is doing. She is laying out the false teachings and then showing why they are dangerous and anti-biblilical.

This should be commended rather than condemned.

Bro Tony