eeeks, Paul Crouch..

[Marcia]

quote:
-------------------------------------------------
Those of Eastern descent will be divided. Where there was a oneness of purpose among them it will no longer be so, for the Lord will bring many of them to faith in Christ. Many will know that the Lord is Lord of all nations and multitudes will come to Him.
-----------------------------------------------
This is true - millions of Muslims in the Middle East and that whole area of the world are turning to Jesus Christ from the Jesus Film Project.

LE, it takes no prophecy to say this. Muslims have been divided for years!! Also, it takes no prophecy to say many will turn to Christ, as that has been happening, too. We've known about the Jesus film being put into different languages and SAT-7 (a satellite TV that broadcasts into the middle east) has been operating for several years.

As for the 3 men in high places being set aside -- a very general predicition, worthy of a psychic. Naturally, when any president takes office -- even when re-elected, there are usually changes. Now, if they had named the men, that would be different. But even so . . .

. . . we should also remember this:

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. Deut 13.1-3

Even if the prophecies are correct, WF teachers are preaching "other gods" and should not be listened to.

BTW, they've made many false prophecies as well. Benny Hinn prophesied that homosexuals would all die in '94, and that Jesus would appear with him on stage in Africa a few years ago. If Hinn was in the OT days, he would have been stoned.

I read that page of "prophecies" and found them to be much like the psychic predictions we used to do every year at the Foundation of Truth when I was an astrologer (I even made predictions).

 

[rsr]

"Three men in high places of government will be set aside."

Really, LE, this is the same stuff you get in newspaper horoscopes: prophecies so general they can be made to fit anything. How do you know it's not talking about Daschle, for example, or Greenspan? Or some foreign leader?

"Many changes will occur in areas of government throughout the world. Governmental policies will change. Many for the good of the people."

That's really a pretty safe prediction to make any year.

"Those of Eastern descent will be divided. Where there was a oneness of purpose among them it will no longer be so, for the Lord will bring many of them to faith in Christ. Many will know that the Lord is Lord of all nations and multitudes will come to Him."

Eastern descent? Indians? Chinese? Arabs? Malays? Koreans? Just about going to come true no matter what. The growth of the church in China has a better claim to fulfill this prophesy than conversion of Muslims.

 

[LadyEagle]

(made ya look, LOL).

Just funnin' with ya, brother, rsr. You, too, Marcia.

 

[rsr]

You got me there, LE.

 

[LadyEagle]

Marcia, I was looking at your website and read part of your article about the serpent, bronze serpent in the wilderness, Egypt. Very interesting. I had never thought about the serpent in relation to Egypt before. (And I'm not kidding, now.) Maybe you can start a discussion about it on the Other Christian Denominations thread somewhere. Thanks.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Marcia, I was looking at your website and read part of your article about the serpent, bronze serpent in the wilderness, Egypt. Very interesting. I had never thought about the serpent in relation to Egypt before. (And I'm not kidding, now.) Maybe you can start a discussion about it on the Other Christian Denominations thread somewhere. Thanks.

Hi, LE! Thanks for reading part of my article (it is long -- and it was longer when I wrote it for my OT class in seminary). I'll think about starting a discussion on it -- if I do, it will have to be next week. But I'll think on it. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[mickd7]

Marcia: Well I am so happy to know that Copeland and Charismatics are brethren in your eyes and you only have problem with their doctrine. But uh oh you said he was heretic and that means he cannot be a Christian , but you have now cleared it up. Heretics can be Christian.
As for false teaching, my, my my I did not say that was ok, I was only trying to distinguish between false teaching and salvation. You can be one and have the other.
God is so good to look past our faults and false teachings and still love us and accept us in the Kingdom!!!!!!!
Now as for the oneness folks, well they are deluded but they love the Lord Jesus and thus are saved. Those that are born again that is..
And yes they worship the same Jesus as we do because they believe that Jesus , the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one and so do I and so do you for trinity is just a word not found in Scripture.

 

[mickd7]

Marcia: With your background and testimony I wonder if you have given thought to contacting Daystar Network . I bet they would be interested in your sharing that testimony on the Joni show , a half hour show which features folks like you.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by mickd7:
Marcia: Well I am so happy to know that Copeland and Charismatics are brethren in your eyes and you only have problem with their doctrine. But uh oh you said he was heretic and that means he cannot be a Christian , but you have now cleared it up. Heretics can be Christian.
As for false teaching, my, my my I did not say that was ok, I was only trying to distinguish between false teaching and salvation. You can be one and have the other.
God is so good to look past our faults and false teachings and still love us and accept us in the Kingdom!!!!!!!

I don't put Copeland and Charismatics in the same category. I don't know if Copeland is a believer or not, but I cannot align myself with him due to his teachings.

As I said on another thread, I have no problem with charismatics as fellow believers. What I look at is the teachings -- if charismatics are supporting Copeland, I cannot agree with them though they might believers.

The issue is not to decide a person's salvation but whether one can align with their teachings. It gets complicated because there are denominations that take clear stands -- such as the UPC -- that go against essential Christian doctrine. So I cannot fellowship with Oneness followers (that is, join in worship with them).

But then there are groups that may have some good doctrine but the teachers teach heresies such as Copeland. I think a lot of believers are taken in by him. But I have to reject the teachings.

I don't know if a heretic can be a believer or not. I do know that Paul said false teachers would arise from within the church. When you look at 2 Peter 2, it sounds like God does not consider false teachers to be believers, but we are not told to decide that. We are told to reject false teachings and not to fellowship with groups that follow false teachings.

Now as for the oneness folks, well they are deluded but they love the Lord Jesus and thus are saved. Those that are born again that is..
And yes they worship the same Jesus as we do because they believe that Jesus , the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one and so do I and so do you for trinity is just a word not found in Scripture.

No, their God, Jesus, and HS are NOT the God, Jesus, and HS of the Bible. Do you consider Jesus to be the Father? You think it's okay to deny the Trinity? If I told you that Jesus was temporary and would eventually disappear so that only the Father is left, would that be okay with you? I hope not.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by mickd7:
Marcia: With your background and testimony I wonder if you have given thought to contacting Daystar Network . I bet they would be interested in your sharing that testimony on the Joni show , a half hour show which features folks like you.

I would be happy to share my testimony but I don't contact people as they probably get contacted all day long by many. When I've been on TV or radio, I was contacted since my name was given to them. What is Daystar Network? Is that a cable network?

 

[LadyEagle]

No, their God, Jesus, and HS are NOT the God, Jesus, and HS of the Bible. Do you consider Jesus to be the Father? You think it's okay to deny the Trinity? If I told you that Jesus was temporary and would eventually disappear so that only the Father is left, would that be okay with you? I hope not.

You know what, I was just thinking about this. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me." And there are probably millions and millions of people all over the world who don't know anything about the trinity, but they heard the Gospel Story, and accepted Jesus Christ into their heart and now belong to the family of God. People, for instance, in foreign lands who just heard the Gospel one time and responded to the leading of the Holy Spirit and now are saved. And yet, they don't know anything about the trinity and they don't know any doctrine, they just know that Jesus Loves them, died for their sins, rose again, and saved them and now they belong to Him.

Sometimes, we need to get back to the basics and quit majoring on the minors. I wonder what Jesus thinks about all of this fussing going on and accusations flying around all over the place about other members of His Body? He's going to present a glorious Church without "spot or wrinkle" and it nearly looks impossible because a lot of people just aren't on the same page. Surprisingly, there will be a lot of people from other "denominations" in heaven one day - it won't be Just Baptists, and in fact, there may be a lot of Baptists who aren't even there.

A person can have all the doctrines absolutely Biblically correct right down to the last dot and crossing of the T and yet, not EVEN KNOW Jesus! It's not what you know, it's WHO you know.

 

[Marcia]

LE, not understanding the Trinity and actively denying it are two different things. Even when I did not understand the Trinity as a new believer, I knew that Jesus was not praying to himself in the garden. I knew Jesus, God, and the HS were 3 Persons but yet all God (but not 3 gods).

Denying the Trinity and saying that God, Jesus, and the HS are all one person and that (in some cases) Jesus "disappears" into the Father is not a minor thing but a major thing. That is why Oneness churches are not part of Christian fellowship. They also believe that
1. You must be baptized to be saved
2. You must speak in tongues to be saved
3. You must be baptized by their formula to be saved

But I personally find the 3 above things less crucial than their denial of the Trinity and bizarre view that Jesus has no Father.

So if I came to your church and told everyone that Jesus has no Father, that would not bother you? You would consider that a minor thing?

Also, you make a false dichotomy between knowing doctrine (which merely means the teaching of the Bible) and knowing Jesus. One can know both!!

 

[LadyEagle]

Also, you make a false dichotomy between knowing doctrine (which merely means the teaching of the Bible) and knowing Jesus. One can know both!!

One should know both. But only one really counts in eternity, was my point.

So are you saying that nobody connected with Oneness is born again? And that all people connected with the Oneness movement deny the trinity?

FYI: Did you know?

The songs "Holy Ground" and "In the Presence of Jehovah" were written by "Oneness" songwriter Geron Davis?

[ November 24, 2004, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[Marcia]

So are you saying that nobody connected with Oneness is born again? And that all people connected with the Oneness movement deny the trinity?

I'll answer the first question with a question: Can one be born again if they believe in the wrong Jesus and/or wrong God?

As to the 2nd question: Yes, all Oneness followers absolutely deny the trinity. On the UPC website, they make a point of this and talk about how the Trinity is a false teaching. They are not good, imo, at backing up their beliefs but all false teachings are somehow internally inconsistent and/or misuse scripture.

The modalism of the UPC and others was called Sabellianism in the 3rd century and condemned as heresy then. I think teachings that are very close to the truth but miss the mark on a major point as the Oneness teachings do are among the most dangerous because so much of what they say sounds "Christian."

Articles on Oneness:

History of Oneness (From CT)
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/1998/58/58h021.html

Articles on Oneness
http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm

A So Baptist article on Oneness (in pdf format)
http://www.namb.net/evangelism/iev/PDF/BB_PENTECOSTALS.pdf

Sabellianism
http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=673

The Trinity in Scripture
http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/chapter10.htm

 

[LadyEagle]

Marcia, would you say then, that every time we sing a song written by a Oneness composer in church, we are singing to the wrong God?

Many of the most popular “praise songs” today were composed by men and women involved with the Oneness Pentecostal movement, which denies the Trinity and which baptizes only in the name of Jesus.

A recent article in Charisma magazine (June 1997) noted that “most popular praise anthems sung in charismatic and evangelical churches today were composed by Oneness believers.” The article gave these examples --

DOTTIE RAMBO, who was raised in a Oneness church, wrote “Behold the Lamb” and other songs.

JOEL HEMPHILL wrote “He’s Still Working on Me.”

LANNY WOLFE wrote “Greater Is He that Is in Me.”

Songwriter GERON DAVIS wrote “Holy Ground” and “In the Presence of Jehovah.”

The contemporary Christian recording group PHILLIPS, CRAIG AND DEAN is composed of three Oneness ministers.

The song “Mercy Seat,” which is sung nightly at the Brownsville Assembly of God “revival” in Pensacola, Florida, was written by United Pentecostal Church (a Oneness group) worship leader MARK CAROUTHERS.

And Dottie Rambo "If That Isn't Love."

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/charismusic.htm

That's the only logical conclusion one can come to:

Oneness believe in a false god

Oneness composer writes song to false god

Christians sing these songs written to a false god

False god is getting the praise, not the True God. And worse, if not the True God, we are singing to satan all across America in Baptist Churches every Sunday!

And there are a lot of songs being sung in Praise all across Baptist Churches that were composed by these Oneness composers.

And worse. I just thought of something else. Bill Gaither and many other Christian Composers associate with these people who worship a false god.

I can see me confronting our Minister of Music about singing "Holy Ground" and "In the Presence of Jehovah" now. Yeah, right.

I might as well stay home from my SBC church and not even bother to go.

 

[Marcia]

It does bother me that a lot of these praise songs were written by Oneness people, but I don't see where the problem is if a believer does not know who wrote it and is singing it to the true God whom they believe in and worship. It's who you believe God is and who are singing to that counts in the end, imo. What was intended for evil is used for good (the true God). However, I don't think Oneness people (like Philips, Craig, and Dean) should be singing in Christian churches. The problem is, most Christians don't know they are Oneness.

The songs are not the issue -- to me the issue is recognizing false teaching and rejecting it. You can't always tell what the teaching is from a praise song since many of them are extremely superficial. In contrast, when you look at some of the great hymns, you see the Trinity clearly praised.

Do you only sing praise songs at your church? No hymns?

FYI: Did you know?

The songs "Holy Ground" and "In the Presence of Jehovah" were written by "Oneness" songwriter Geron Davis?

No, I didn't know this. If there is no false teaching in the song I have no problem singing them because I am singing them to the true God though it makes me uncomfortable when I know a Oneness person wrote it.

Not sure I ever sang these songs, though. Does "Holy Ground" go..."We are standing - on holy ground; we are standing - on holy ground, etc."?

 

[LadyEagle]

Yep, that's it.

We sing Praise Songs and the Old Hymns of the Faith - every Sunday.

 

[mickd7]

Good for you Lady Eagle, what a calming and sensible voice on this BB

Marcia: You can rest assured that ole Kenny is saved and loves the Lord . His teaching might be off in some ways but he is sincere and he uses Scripture to back up his teaching.
I dont consider him a heretic or false teacher but someone who sincerely believes what he teaches albeit sincerely wrong in some cases. Now in my eyes a heretic or false teacher is someone who deliberately teaches false ideals to keep folks from knowing the truth and keep them out of the Kingdom.
And he ( Copeland) is Charismatic also. Charismatics are like every denomination or group. There are some right on and some way off base but I let God be the judge of these matters.
Also Marcia you had better learn to align with these brothers and sisters in Christ for one day you will start your eternal fellowship with them. And oh yes there will be some of those oneness folks there and yes I believe they most definitely worship the one true God in Jesus Christ.\
The thing about the oneness folks are they are the Pentacostal cousins to the IFB because in their eyes no one but their little knot of believers will make it into heaven because others do not believe what they believe.
THey are absolutely wrong and so are all those Baptist that treach they are the only ones that hold all truth and are somehow superior in their faith.
All I can say is there are going to be a whole lot of dissappointed Christians when they get to heaven and find out their mansion is next to a Catholic or Pentacostal or whatever we call ourselves.
Trinity also is not in the Bible and it is only a play on Words . Read in Acts and you will see that the oneness group has it right for these scripture say we are saved if we believe and are baptised in the name of Jesus..
So as u can see we can all find Scripture to back up our favorite doctrine, if u know what I mean, and I think you do!!!!!!

 

[Bro Tony]

Trinity also is not in the Bible and it is only a play on Words . Read in Acts and you will see that the oneness group has it right for these scripture say we are saved if we believe and are baptised in the name of Jesus..

You cannot be serious? The doctrine of the Trinity is only a play on words? Oneness Theologians have it right? You have really slipped now just because you don't agree with Marcia. What you have just stated is neither baptistic nor biblical. You better back up and try again.

While I agree many people will be surprized at who will be in heaven, don't let your belief in that cloud any biblical discernment you might have left (however little that may be).

Bro Tony

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by mickd7:

Marcia: You can rest assured that ole Kenny is saved and loves the Lord . His teaching might be off in some ways but he is sincere and he uses Scripture to back up his teaching.
I dont consider him a heretic or false teacher but someone who sincerely believes what he teaches albeit sincerely wrong in some cases. Now in my eyes a heretic or false teacher is someone who deliberately teaches false ideals to keep folks from knowing the truth and keep them out of the Kingdom.
And he ( Copeland) is Charismatic also. Charismatics are like every denomination or group. There are some right on and some way off base but I let God be the judge of these matters.
Also Marcia you had better learn to align with these brothers and sisters in Christ for one day you will start your eternal fellowship with them. And oh yes there will be some of those oneness folks there and yes I believe they most definitely worship the one true God in Jesus Christ.\
The thing about the oneness folks are they are the Pentacostal cousins to the IFB because in their eyes no one but their little knot of believers will make it into heaven because others do not believe what they believe.
THey are absolutely wrong and so are all those Baptist that treach they are the only ones that hold all truth and are somehow superior in their faith.
All I can say is there are going to be a whole lot of dissappointed Christians when they get to heaven and find out their mansion is next to a Catholic or Pentacostal or whatever we call ourselves.
Trinity also is not in the Bible and it is only a play on Words . Read in Acts and you will see that the oneness group has it right for these scripture say we are saved if we believe and are baptised in the name of Jesus..
So as u can see we can all find Scripture to back up our favorite doctrine, if u know what I mean, and I think you do!!!!!!

First off, this has nothing to do with being charismatic, as I said before. If you are aligning with these people because they are charismatic, you are making a grave mistake.

Most false teachers in the church seem to use scripture to supposedly support their teaching. What is really happening is that they mis-use scripture -- they take it out of context, twist it, etc.

So you have no problem with someone saying that Jesus did not die for our sins on the cross? That God has a body? That we are little gods? That we can speak things into creation like God? If you truly have no problem with these teachings, tnen I urge you to turn away from them because they are not doctrines from God.

And btw, a false teacher can be sincere and think they are right. In fact, I think most of them are sincere. Being sincere means nothing if you are teaching against the Bible.

Trinity is a play on words? Are you really Baptist and can say this??? The Oneness Jesus is NOT the Jesus of the Bible. I have posted links that give scriptural refutation to the Oneness and WF doctrines.

We can't all find scripture to back up "our favorite doctrine" -- we can only find and use scripture correctly to back up true doctrine. There are many who also can mis-use scripture to back up false doctrine.