eeeks, Paul Crouch..

blackbird · Dec 1, 2004

Old Regular! Man, listen! I apologize to you publically---I didn't mean to make it sound like you believed that a "pin prick" from Jesus and a little bleeding would have "covered" our sins---you've got to believe me when I say that my statement came out all wrong---and it sounded like I was implying that that is what you believed---so will you forgive me and lets go on??

Your buddy,

Blackbird

OldRegular · Dec 1, 2004

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
In the BJU article, Jones quoted MacArthur as saying, "It is not His bleeding that saved me, but His dying." Jones then cited Hebrews 9:22 ("without shedding of blood is no remission") and intoned, "MacArthur's position is heresy."

Lady Eagle

I made the following response to your remarks about MacArthur.

"Regarding your post about remarks attributed to John MacArthur. Suppose Jesus Christ had pricked his finger and shed some blood. Would that have provided for the remission of our sins?"

I was trying to make the point that the quotation from Hebrews, a reference to the temple sacrifices and ultimately to Genesis 3:15, implied the death of the sacrifice, not just the shedding of blood, the pricking of a finger. Therefore, it was not simply the shedding of Jesus Christ's blood that saved us but His death. Scripture tells us:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;[/]b

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

It would seem therefore that Bob Jones jumped the gun in calling MacArthur a heretic.

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Furthermore, if you refuse to accept the WOF Doctrinal Statement as representing their core beliefs, then you are accusing all of them of being liars.

Click to expand...

Whether I accept the doctrinal statement of the WOF is irrelevant. It is evident from the recorded teachings of the word faith leaders [Copelands, Crouches, Hinn, Price, Tilton, Avanzini, Osteen, Osborne, Hickey, Savelle, Cerullo, and the Roberts] that they do not accept the doctrinal statement. I cannot speak about the people who adhere to word faith other than to say that I do not doubt that many of them are Christians.

LadyEagle · Dec 1, 2004

I cannot speak about the people who adhere to word faith other than to say that I do not doubt that many of them are Christians.

Praise the Lord!

(Dancing now in joy...

)

OldRegular · Dec 1, 2004

Originally posted by blackbird:
Old Regular! Man, listen! I apologize to you publically---I didn't mean to make it sound like you believed that a "pin prick" from Jesus and a little bleeding would have "covered" our sins---you've got to believe me when I say that my statement came out all wrong---and it sounded like I was implying that that is what you believed---so will you forgive me and lets go on??

Your buddy,

Blackbird

Well, out of fear of Lady Eagle who said "And quit picking on my buddy, blackbird!" and in response to your remarks there is nothing to forgive and we will move on.

I have attempted to explain to Lady Eagle the point I was trying to make about the pin prick. I hope I was not being sacrilegious when I talked about a "Pin Prick" in relation to Jesus Christ. i know I cannot comprehend in this life the depth of His love and sacrifice, not only in His death but in His incarnation, but I try.

OldRegular · Dec 1, 2004

Originally posted by blackbird:
Old Regular! Man, listen! I apologize to you publically---I didn't mean to make it sound like you believed that a "pin prick" from Jesus and a little bleeding would have "covered" our sins---you've got to believe me when I say that my statement came out all wrong---and it sounded like I was implying that that is what you believed---so will you forgive me and lets go on??

Your buddy,

Blackbird

Well out of fear of Lady Eagle who told me "And quit picking on my buddy, blackbird!" and your gracious remarks above there is nothing to forgive and we will move on.

I have tried to explain to Lady Eagle the point I was trying to make in reference to the "Pin Prick". I just hope that I was not being sacrilegious in my use of "Pin Prick" in reference to Jesus Christ. That certainly was not my intention. I know that in this life I will never be able to fully comprehend the depth of the love of Jesus Christ and of His sacrifice, not only in His death but also in His incarnation when He left the portals of glory to live among sinful man.

OldRegular · Dec 1, 2004

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I cannot speak about the people who adhere to word faith other than to say that I do not doubt that many of them are Christians.

Praise the Lord!

(Dancing now in joy...

) </font>[/QUOTE]Bless your little pea pikin heart!

Marcia · Dec 2, 2004

I'm curious about the wrong Jesus

Would you be okay hearing your preacher say:
1. Jesus did not become Christ until he was baptized
2. God is 9 persons, not 3
3. God has a body
4. Jesus did not atone for sins on the cross but had to go to hell to fight Satan for 3 days
5. Jesus took on a sin nature and was a "lowly worm" in hell

Is this the Jesus of the Bible? Is this the Jesus you believe in?

It is not the Jesus of the Bible and it is not the Jesus who saved me.

The WF hersies are not subtle; they are blatant. This is not even including the other teachings that faith is a force we use to get God to give us what is rightfully ours.

Trotter · Dec 2, 2004

"T B N" = The Blasphemy Network

Bartimaeus · Dec 2, 2004

I went to Tulsa Ok. (as a 'tongue in cheek',Baptist born, Baptist bred, Baptist when I'm dead preacher) to help out a pastor (word/faith movement) who was standing on principle, (religious liberty issue) and had the backbone to stand for what he believed in and a district court judge threw him in jail. To make a long story short, he stood, we helped and the Lord won the victory. He was a little name preacher if you know what I mean. Little church, old neighborhood and no money in the church coffers. When we went to the big boys on the block, Copeland and all the rest of those birds in Tulsa and the surrounding area, they wouldn't lift a finger to help the guy. They were great friends who believed much different but I would like to say I do not regret helping that little church. I stayed in Tulsa 12 weeks with about 10-20 other Baptist Preachers. They are totally wrong in doctrine, as I witnessed with my own eyes but I loved them all the same.
Thanks -------Bart

Johnv · Dec 2, 2004

Bart, you did the right thing. When someone need help, we shouldn't be giving them a litmus test. In scripture, when Jesus gave a helping hand, it never came with a pre-approval questionnaire in it.

LadyEagle · Dec 2, 2004

Johnv is right! Good for you, Bart! You did do the right thing and you've set a Christ-like example for all of us.

Marcia · Dec 3, 2004

What Bart did is not the same as endorsing the WF teachings. In fact, he pointed out how the other WF people in the area did nothing to help this guy.

LadyEagle · Dec 3, 2004

Which of the WOF International teachings as posted on their web site and which I've cut and pasted on this thread for the whole world to see do you not endorse? I'm not asking about some of the teachers, I'm asking about the Doctrinal Statement they have listed on their web site.

blackbird · Dec 3, 2004

LE---ummmmmmmm---will you post those teachings again---I can't find the place where you posted the first time!!

LadyEagle · Dec 3, 2004

WORD OF FAITH INTERNATIONAL FELLOWSHIP'S DOCTRINAL STATEMENT

The Godhead - There are not three essences (Tritheistic heresy) or only one being (Oneness or Modalistic heresy) in the Godhead. The Godhead is a Tri-unity of Divine Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in perfect unity (Matthew 28:19; 1 John 5:7; etc.). Each of these Persons is coequal, co-eternal, and are God (John 1:1-3; Acts 5:3-4; 1 John 5:7; 2 John 3; etc.). While there are Three separate and distinct Members of the Godhead, they are one in essence and make up the one God, that is one in essence or substance (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 5:7).

The Scriptures - The Scriptures (66 books of the Bible) are inspired of God, and are the final court of appeals for all matters of doctrine and practice. The rule of interpretation is to always take the Bible literally where it is at all possible; if figurative or symbolic language is used, one should look for the literal meaning it intends to convey (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21; Revelation 22:18-19).

The Fall of Man - All men are made innocent and upright (Eccl. 7:29). Through man's free will he chooses to sin, thus incurring the full penalty of the broken law, the loss of spiritual life and eternal damnation. The guilt and damnation of the original sin rests solely upon Adam and not upon his descendants (Genesis 3:1-7; Romans 3:23; 5:12-21).

Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ was and is God manifested in the flesh (John 1:1-14; 1 Timothy 3:16). He was born of a virgin, lived a perfect and sinless life, died for man's sins on the cross, shed His blood for remission of sins (Mark 14:24; Acts 20:28; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; Hebrews 9:14), was buried, rose again bodily by the power of God on the third full day, bodily ascended on high, now is bodily seated at the right hand of God the Father, and will return bodily (Matthew 1:18-23; Mark 16:19; Luke 1:30-35; John 19:38-20:18; Acts 1:9-11; 2:22-36; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 1 Timothy 3:16).

Salvation - God has purchased the full salvation of man (body, soul, and spirit) through the death of His Son on the cross. Salvation is offered to all, and all may receive it through faith in the Son of God. This salvation is universal in the truth that it is offered to all, but is limited in the truth that only a few choose to accept it (Matthew 7:13-14; 20:16; 22:14; John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17). Through this salvation man is free from all sin, and given the power to live clean in this world (Matthew 18:3; Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:3-7; Acts 4:12; Romans 10:9-10; Galatians 5:24; Ephesians 2:8-10; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 3:6-10).

Sanctification - Sanctification means a separation from a life of sin and wickedness to a life of holiness. All truly born-again believers are sanctified. Thus there is no such thing as sanctification as a second work of grace. Rather sanctification begins when one is saved and continues throughout one's life as long as they live holy (Acts 20:32; 26:18; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 6:11; 2 Timothy 2:19-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 2:11; 10:10, 14; 1 Peter 1:2; Jude 1)

Holiness - Holiness is God's requirement for the saved. All who are truly saved will live a lifestyle of holiness before both God and man (Micah 6:8; Matthew 5:48; 7:21; Luke 22:24; Acts 10:35; Romans 6:22-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Hebrews 12:14; 1 John 2:3-5; 5:18; Jude 21; Revelation 21:7-8).

Hell - All have sinned (Romans 3:23) and are destined for eternal torment in hell. Only through salvation can one escape such punishment. Those who sin and fail to repent and forsake their sins will spend eternity apart from God in eternal torment. Hell is a literal place of fire and brimstone, and is the eternal home of the damned (Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).

Power from on high - The power from on high is for all born-again believers to receive, and is evidenced by power to be witnesses. A believer that has been endued with this power can do the works of Christ and even greater works with all the gifts of the Spirit. These gifts will not cease until we are made perfect by Christ at the resurrection as is seen in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Believers are to be wary of any "gift" that would cause one to be more focused on the gift than the Giver of the gift, the Holy Spirit. They also should avoid flaunting spiritual gifts for this is rebellious and demonic (Isaiah 28:11-12; John 7:37-39; 14:12; Acts 1:4-5, 8; 2:4, 32-33, 38-39; 5:32; 8:14-17; 10:44-46; 11:15-16; 19:1-7).

The Rapture of the Church - The rapture of the church takes place before the tribulation period and the revealing of the antichrist. No one who is born-again and living a life of holiness, as any truly born-again person does live, will have to go through the tribulation period. Jesus even taught for His saints to "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36) proving that believers will escape the coming judgment on the world. Paul taught that "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9) which also shows that believers will not have to go through the tribulation period (Luke 21:36; John 14:2-3; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-58; Ephesians 5:27; Philippians 3:11, 20-21; Colossians 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 4:13-18; 5:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 6-8; James 5:7-8; 1 Peter 5:4; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Revelation 1:19).

Source [/QB][/QUOTE]

Marcia · Dec 3, 2004

Unfortunately, you cannot go by the Statement of Faith. You can't stop there - you have to check out their tapes, books, and tv shows. It has been documented, over and over! I have a book full of quotes from WF teachers, each quote documented.

I have also heard many of them teach the things that I have posted.

This is not obscure or new information. The way I found out about WF was because I heard Kenneth Hagin on the radio, when I had been a believer for only a few weeks, say that if you think you won't get sick, then you won't. This is straight from the New Thought Movement.

Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God. Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence."
(Fred Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger June 1980.)

"The Bible indicates that for three days, Jesus went into the very depths of hell. Right into the enemy's own territory. And He did battle with Satan face to face. Can you imagine what a show down that was?"
(Joel Osteen, Sermon, CS-002 - April 23, 2000. Sermon posted on his website)

"It wasn't a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that."
(Kenneth Copeland, What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audiotape #BCC-19, side 1)

"When Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption."
(Ken Copeland, Jesus, Our Lord of Glory, Believer's Voice of Victory 10, 4 (April 1982)

Marcia · Dec 3, 2004

DOCTRINE
God
Word-Faith teachers claim that God operates by spiritual law and is obliged to obey the faith-filled commands and desires of believers. He not only reveals prosperity teaching supernaturally to the Word-Faith teachers, but personally and verbally confirms their unique interpretations of Scripture (Copeland, Laws of Prosperity, pp. 60-62).

They say the Abrahamic Covenant is the basis for commanding God to do His part in the covenant. Robert Tilton says, "we make our own promises to do our part, then we can tell God, on the authority of His word, what we would like Him to do. That's right, you can actually tell God what you would like His part in the Covenant to be" (God's Miracle Plan for Man, p. 36). Kenneth Copeland says, "as a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent, because it is His Word" (Our Covenant with God, p. 32). Copeland goes so far as to say that "God was the lesser party and Abraham was the greater" in the covenant between them (Copeland, Legal and Vital Aspects of Redemption, 1985, Audio Tape #01-0403).

The Faith teachers also make God into a big man. Copeland says, "God is...a being that stands somewhere around 6'-2," 6'-3," that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, and has a hand span of nine inches across" (Spirit, Soul, and Body, 1985, Tape #01-0601). Morris Cerillo, in an alleged out-of-body experience, describes God: "Suddenly, in front of this tremendous multitude of people, the glory of God appeared. The form that I saw was about the height of a man 6 feet tall, maybe taller, and twice as broad as a human body, with no distinguishing features such as eyes, nose, or mouth" (The Miracle Book, pp. x-xi).
From
http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

Marcia · Dec 3, 2004

Continued from same link...

Man
Word-Faith teachers say that not only is God a big man, but man is a little god. Kenneth Hagin has asserted, "man...was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority.... He made us the same class of being that He is Himself.... He lived on terms equal with God.... The believer is called Christ, that's who we are; we're Christ" (Zoe: The God Kind of Life, pp. 35-36, 41). "God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself...He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even" (Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham, 1989, Tape #01-3001). He also proclaims, "You don't have a God in you ‹ you are one!" (Copeland, The Force of Love, 1987, Tape #02-0028). Morris Cerillo says "the whole purpose of God was to reproduce Himself. ...you're not looking at Morris Cerillo, you're looking at God, you're looking at Jesus" (The End Time Manifestation of the Sons of God, Audio Tape 1, Sides 1 &;2).

Christ
The deity of Christ is compromised. Kenneth Copeland, in relating what Christ supposedly told him, says, "don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God...the more you get to be like Me, the more they are going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn't claim I was God. I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was with Me" (Copeland, "Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory, #15, 2 February 1987, p. 9). "Jesus was on the earth just a man, not the son of God" (Frederick K.C. Price, Tape #RP 19, May 1993). And Kenneth Hagin says, "You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was" (The Word of Faith, December 1980, p. 14).

Marcia · Dec 3, 2004

They say Jesus not only bore our sins on Calvary, but also took on the actual nature of Satan himself. "Just as Adam died spiritually, Jesus died spiritually. The spiritual death He suffered caused His physical body to die.... When Jesus accepted the sin nature of Satan into His Spirit He cried 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?' He was separated from God... He was ushered into the bowels of hell" (Kenneth Copeland, Classic Redemption, p. 13; emphasis added). "Spiritual death means having Satan's nature" (Hagin, The Name of Jesus, p. 31).

Just a man on earth, and taking on the nature of Satan at the cross, Jesus becomes just a sinner in need of redemption. At the resurrection Jesus is a born again man from the pit of hell. "Jesus was born again in the pit of Hell....The Church started when Jesus was born again in the gates of Hell" (Charles Capps, Authority In Three Worlds, pp. 212 13).

And

Faith is a Force (like Starwars). (Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)

God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith. (Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)

Adam was not subordinate to God. (Kenneth Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham, Tape #01-3001)

God and Adam looked exactly alike. (Kenneth Copeland, The Authority of the Believer IV; Tape #01-0304)

"Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God" (Kenneth Copeland, NOW WE ARE IN CHRIST JESUS (Ft. Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1980), 24.)

"God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself...He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even" (Kenneth Copeland, "Following the Faith of Abraham," tape 01-3001, n.d.).

"Faith is God's source of power" (Kenneth Copeland, Freedom From Fear, 1983. p. 12. emphasis original)

"You don't have a god in you, you are one." (Kenneth Copeland, "The Force Of Love" tape # 02-0028)

"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in My self. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord." (Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory", Feb. 1987, p.9)

"I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'" (Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN, recorded 7/9/87)
From
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/quotes.html#Copeland

Some of the quotes on this page can be heard with RealPlayer.

Marcia · Dec 3, 2004

eeeks, Paul Crouch..

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