Elect does not mean "saved at birth"

[canadyjd]

Thats to bad. There is no such thing in scripture.

I am sorry you have missed such a clear teaching of our Lord.

Perseverance means the one who is perseverering has to work at it....

Perseverance is tough at times. God uses it to mature us in our faith, and draw us closer to Him.

Originally Posted by canadyjd
I have read the story many times. I have never heard it interpreted the way you do. "They" didn't come in as "sheep", but as strange shepherds who were trying to steal the sheep. The sheep of our Lord would not follow them because they know their Master's, the Good Shepherd, voice and always follow Him. They refuse to follow strangers because the stranger's voices are different from the Master's voice.

That's the strangest interpretation I ever heard. Anyone who has been around animals knows that certain people, (and other animals) that have a way with animals can lead them anywhere with out ever having been known to the animals.

That is the only interpretation I have ever heard. Maybe the sheep are alot smarter now. In the first century, the sheep would be put into a common corral. When the owner of the sheep wanted to take them out, he would call to them, sometimes by name, and only his sheep would go out with him. Sheep only followed the one master's voice. That is why the analogy that Jesus is making is so relevant.

Is that why so many Christians are misled today?

So many Christians are misled today because they don't know scripture, often quoting verses out of context (like you did with the 2 Cor passage) in order to try to make it fit what they want it to say. When they are shown their error, they simply pretend they never said it, and move on to the next passage taken out of context,(like you did with the Gal. 2:16 passage) or the next confident assertion about things which they know little or nothing. (like you did when you said Gal. 2:16 "says it all; accept it or not")

Your audacity far outweighs your understanding.

They think Christian history began with their birth, and that they are the first ones to ever think great thoughts about what the Bible says and means. Therefore, anything anyone else ever said isn't biblical, since they think they are the only ones who understand the things of God.

That's why they say things like, "irresistible grace isn't taught anywhere in scripture". At least the great theologians of old who disagreed with the doctrine had the knowledge and intellectually honesty to admit "some" verses could be taken that way.

That's why you have some saying God could infer you are "blaspheming Holy Spirit" just because you disagree with what they are saying.

Their audacity far outweighs their understanding.

That is why Christians are being misled today.

peace to youraying:

 

[Jarthur001]

It's simple canadyjd and rippon,
This verse says it all,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Since it's as plain as day what else you want me to say. You can either believe it or not it's up to you isn't it?

Rippon, You believe in predestination and election. Did you have a choice? If not you must have been dragged off. There isn't any other way for someone deep in sin to come to the light on His own. That choice being made by God, means you had nothing to do with it. Salvation was forced on you by God because, you were unalterably predestined to it. Your salvation was forced. Where there is no choice or the choice is made for you then you are being forced.
MB

This is yet another poor understanding of the doctrines of grace.

Election is not salvation. Election is TO salvation.

1. Election is not salvation but is unto salvation.

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (elect) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Rom. 11:7).

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13).


If the elect obtain salvation, and if election is to salvation, election must pave the way for salvation. Men are saved when they believe on Christ, not when they are elected. President Bush was not president when he was elected, but when he was inaugurated. There was not only an election to the office, but an induction into the office. God's elect are inducted into the position of saintship by the effectual call, or empowering or the quickening work of the Holy Spirit through which they become believers in the Gospel.


1 Cor 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


2 Thess 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



This empowerment can be likened to the natural birth. Life begins before the birth. God not only draws us to salvation, but also gives us the quickening power in order to understand the message of the gospel that we once did not understand. You will never understand the gospel until this regeneration happens.

 

[skypair]

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Good! And His witness is true and truth. So you take "salt"/Spirit with a little "pepper"/Calvinism on your life, eh? :laugh:

And where is your Scripture that says the gospel saves ? And I suppose you mean eternal salvation, so show me the Scripture that the gospel is responsible for the eternal salvation of the sinner.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved,..." 1Cor 15:1-4

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." Mark 8:35

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13 BTW, this also shows how the gospel saves you and the order of events (if you can unscramble them correctly -- mainly heard, believed, sealed.).

"Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2Thes 2:14

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;..." Rom 1:16

And will you please tell me what grace is to you, since you accuse us of being in the "do nothing" religion ?

Grace, we call, "any unmerited favor" -- getting what we don't deserve. It could apply to salvation but not in the sense of an unbeliever receiving salvation without a cause.

Salvation is a "spiritual transaction" bringing forth spiritual life -- rebirth. As such, the affiant offers belief in exchange for eternal life. (Eph 1:13 above). Belief is no work (Rom 4:5) or "act." Repenting and receiving are, likewise, spiritual (mental and willful acceptance). The believer has done nothing in the sense that you claim some kind of fleshly sacrifice or merit or work. The work part comes AFTER the rebirth in the form of Rom 10:9-10 -- confession with the mouth. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness [justification]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation [sanctification]." That is, there actually has to be BELIEF, REPENTANCE, and RECEPTION of Christ on your part before anything can happen -- before saving grace, regeneration, faith, spiritual gifts, eternal life, etc.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You have to cut skypair some slack. He gets his sense of assurance from the idea that he made a free will choice.

Obedience is what I call it -- obedience to Rom 10:9-11 among others. if I obey, He promises.

From a free-will perspective, the reason WHY you are saved and another is not is because you made the right choice.

True. Or believed the right thing whereas another believes the wrong thing.

From a grace perspective, we don't know the reason WHY we are saved and another is not, because God made the choice.

Precisely! And even the "Spirit that bears witness" could be suspect because "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." 2Cor 11:14 Remember Mohammed? Joseph Smith?

He doesn't understand that we don't NEED to know why we were saved over another.

Or perhaps you DO need to know. If you don't know why you were saved, what keeps the Muslim from being right and you wrong? There IS a "why" you know. Whether hidden from you in God's "secret counsel" or not, there is a why and the Bible clearly tells it to us. It is the "cause" of "EFFECTual calling." It is BELIEF, REPENTANCE, and RECEPTION of Christ.

The one who doesn't need to know is merely trusting another person's assurances for his own salvation, npeterely.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Perseverance would be Holy Spirit indwelling us, leading us to maturity in our faith and love of our Lord in the midst of persecution by men or discipline by Almighty God.

My question to you would be --- is that the Holy Spirit "preserving" you or is that you "perservering?" Cause "perserverance of the saints" sounds like YOU "perservering," not the Spirit "preserving."

I have read the story many times. I have never heard it interpreted the way you do. "They" didn't come in as "sheep", but as strange shepherds.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

[skypair]

That's why you have some saying God could infer you are "blaspheming Holy Spirit" just because you disagree with what they are saying.

I guess I have a dog in this fight, too. Ugh!

So many Christians are misled today because they don't know scripture, often quoting verses out of context (like you did with the 2 Cor passage) in order to try to make it fit what they want it to say. When they are shown their error, they simply pretend they never said it, and move on to the next passage taken out of context,(like you did with the Gal. 2:16 passage) or the next confident assertion about things which they know little or nothing. (like you did when you said Gal. 2:16 "says it all; accept it or not")

No sense putting the same pearls before swine a second time. If you don't see it once, you ain't likely to see it the next time.

And I didn't note the 2Cor passage but the Gal 2:16 passage was right on! Your refutation of it is, apparently, to say it is erroneous interpretation and silence as to how you find that to be so, right?

They think Christian history began with their birth, and that they are the first ones to ever think great thoughts about what the Bible says and means. Therefore, anything anyone else ever said isn't biblical, since they think they are the only ones who understand the things of God.

That's a "low blow!" Because we prefer our theology from the Bible and you prefer to believe Calvinism, you have to make up some lame explanation like "history began with their birth?" And to presume that Calvin had "great thoughts" about scripture is deceptive too. Calvin had "great thoughts" about Augustine who had great thoughts about Greek philosophy which was never related to scripture.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Or perhaps you DO need to know. If you don't know why you were saved, what keeps the Muslim from being right and you wrong? There IS a "why" you know. Whether hidden from you in God's "secret counsel" or not, there is a why and the Bible clearly tells it to us. It is the "cause" of "EFFECTual calling." It is BELIEF, REPENTANCE, and RECEPTION of Christ.

The one who doesn't need to know is merely trusting another person's assurances for his own salvation, npeterely.

skypair

I honestly don't know why I bother, but you completely missed the point. I didn't say we don't know if we ARE saved. In fact, I specifically said we do know we are saved. We do know we have the truth. I said we don't know why God chose us over other people.

Your reading comprehension is so bad when it comes to understanding posts, how can you be sure you have any clue what the Bible says?

 

[skypair]

I honestly don't know why I bother, but you completely missed the point. I didn't say we don't know if we ARE saved. In fact, I specifically said we do know we are saved. We do know we have the truth. I said we don't know why God chose us over other people.

Your reading comprehension is so bad when it comes to understanding posts, how can you be sure you have any clue what the Bible says?

No, I actually acknowledged that you said you knew. What I did next was ask how (if you don't know why you are saved) can you be so sure?? "The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked..." Perhaps your mind is playing tricks on you if you indeed don't know the critical details of salvation, eh? Calvin offered this deceitfulness of the mind. Are you sure?

skypair

 

[npetreley]

No, I actually acknowledged that you said you knew. What I did next was ask how (if you don't know why you are saved) can you be so sure?? "The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked..." Perhaps your mind is playing tricks on you if you indeed don't know the critical details of salvation, eh? Calvin offered this deceitfulness of the mind. Are you sure?

skypair

Sigh. I know why I'm saved. God called me. What I don't know is why God chose me over someone else. I don't need to know. I don't care about knowing. I know He saved me, and that's all that matters.

If you don't get it this time, I give up.

 

[canadyjd]

No sense putting the same pearls before swine a second time. If you don't see it once, you ain't likely to see it the next time.

I don't mind throwing the pearls down a second time. I think you might understand one day.

So many Christians are misled today because they don't know scripture, often quoting verses out of context (like you did with the 2 Cor passage) in order to try to make it fit what they want it to say. When they are shown their error, they simply pretend they never said it, and move on to the next passage taken out of context,(like you did with the Gal. 2:16 passage) or the next confident assertion about things which they know little or nothing. (like you did when you said Gal. 2:16 "says it all; accept it or not")

(skypair said) And I didn't note the 2Cor passage but the Gal 2:16 passage was right on! Your refutation of it is, apparently, to say it is erroneous interpretation and silence as to how you find that to be so, right?

Your "erroneous interpretation" is that you gave no interpretation at all. You quoted one verse of scripture and said "that says it all, believe it or not".

You are factually incorrect to say Gal. 2:16 says "everything" there is to say about what God has revealed to us. That is an "erroneous interpretation."

You are biblically and theologically ignorant if you believe Gal. 2:16 says "everything" there is to say about what God has revealed to us. Forgive me if my language seems harsh. It is accurate, however, if that is what you believe.

That is why I said your audacity far outweighs your understanding of scripture.

That's a "low blow!" Because we prefer our theology from the Bible and you prefer to believe Calvinism, you have to make up some lame explanation like "history began with their birth?" And to presume that Calvin had "great thoughts" about scripture is deceptive too. Calvin had "great thoughts" about Augustine who had great thoughts about Greek philosophy which was never related to scripture.

Many of the things I understood from scripture concerning predestination, election, perseverence and so on, came to me long before I ever heard of "Calvinism". I have never read the man's works, although I have read quotes here and there. The bible seems so clear to me on these teachings that I am amazed at times there is such heated debate over them.

If you want to have a civil debate, then let's consider John 10:26-30: (v.26) "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep."

Jesus tells these people (Jews; probably Jewish leaders of the pharisees) that the reason they don't believe is because they are not of His sheep. Does that mean there is no chance they will ever believe? It certainly appears that way. Why?

(v27)"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"

Jesus contrasts them to "His sheep". The word "know" is a present, active, indicative verb. That means it is a fact, not just a possibility. They "follow" Me. "Follow" is present, active, indicative; It is a fact. They follow Him. The verb for "hear", in "My sheep hear My voice", is a future, active, indicative. It is a fact that will occur without fail at some point in the future. Jesus presents as a fact (not a possibility) that "His sheep" will hear His voice and will follow Him, and that He already knows all of His sheep; That is why He can say "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep" to those people.

You can see the doctrine of "election" (some are His sheep and some are not) (also "election" in verse 29) and "effectually calling" (His sheep will hear His voice and will follow Him).

The doctrine of perseverence is found in verse 28: "I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

The reason for the persevernce is given in verse 29-30: "My Father, who has given them to Me (election again), is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Now, if you see some other interpretation of these verses (John 10:26-30), then please explain it and we will talk about it.

peace to youraying:

 

[pinoybaptist]

I don't mind throwing the pearls down a second time. I think you might understand one day.

I thought you were demanding that we be civil-tongued to each other. That me having called MB's teaching a lie makes me calling him a liar (which is not true).
That you were questioning my Christian love for MB when I do that.

And here you're obviously saying Christians who don't see eye to eye with your amazing doctrines are swine ?
Did you say that with love ?

I thought these boards had moderators supposedly watching the speech of Christians to fellow Christians. Are there moderators here ?

 

[canadyjd]

I thought you were demanding that we be civil-tongued to each other. That me having called MB's teaching a lie makes me calling him a liar (which is not true).
That you were questioning my Christian love for MB when I do that.

And here you're obviously saying Christians who don't see eye to eye with your amazing doctrines are swine ?
Did you say that with love ?

I thought these boards had moderators supposedly watching the speech of Christians to fellow Christians. Are there moderators here ?

I am not a moderator. However, I do want to point out something.

You are attributing to Skypair something that I said in response to his comments to me.

Skypair said in post #86:

No sense putting the same pearls before swine a second time. If you don't see it once, you ain't likely to see it the next time.

I responded to him by saying:

I don't mind throwing the pearls down a second time. I think you might understand one day.

He did call me a "swine", and it was offensive. I didn't particularly think it rose to the level of involving the moderators. I used his own words to respond to him. I was trying to be tongue in cheek about it, though.

As far as calling people liars, I dont' know about that.

I am just trying to keep the record straight.

peace to youraying:

 

[mcdirector]

I thought you were demanding that we be civil-tongued to each other. That me having called MB's teaching a lie makes me calling him a liar (which is not true).
That you were questioning my Christian love for MB when I do that.

And here you're obviously saying Christians who don't see eye to eye with your amazing doctrines are swine ?
Did you say that with love ?

I thought these boards had moderators supposedly watching the speech of Christians to fellow Christians. Are there moderators here ?

When I've wanted to make sure a moderator sees something, I hit that little yellow triangle in the upper right hand corner. A box pops up so you can tell them what the problem is. There are so many threads and even more posts . . .

 

[skypair]

I don't mind throwing the pearls down a second time. I think you might understand one day.

Thanks. :thumbs: My snout often gets in my way! :laugh:

Your "erroneous interpretation" is that you gave no interpretation at all. You quoted one verse of scripture and said

You are factually incorrect to say Gal. 2:16 says "everything" ["that says it all, believe it or not"] there is to say about what God has revealed to us. That is an "erroneous interpretation."[/quote] It does regarding salvation. Or this one: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13 Heard -- believed -- sealed.

Many of the things I understood from scripture concerning predestination, election, perseverence and so on, came to me long before I ever heard of "Calvinism".

You "heard" from someone's exoosition of scripture and didn't know what it was. I can guarantee you didn't "dig it out" of scripture yourself.

If you want to have a civil debate, then let's consider John 10:26-30: (v.26) "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep."

Jesus tells these people (Jews; probably Jewish leaders of the pharisees) that the reason they don't believe is because they are not of His sheep. Does that mean there is no chance they will ever believe? It certainly appears that way. Why?

No, it doesn't mean they can never be saved. Look at 10:37-38 -- He actually offers them a chance to reconsider and hear and believe! HIS sheep are those that hear, not the ones who are predestined against the natural wills and above their peers to hear.

(v27)"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"

Jesus contrasts them to "His sheep". The word "know" is a present, active, indicative verb. That means it is a fact, not just a possibility. They "follow" Me. "Follow" is present, active, indicative; It is a fact. They follow Him. The verb for "hear", in "My sheep hear My voice", is a future, active, indicative. It is a fact that will occur without fail at some point in the future. Jesus presents as a fact (not a possibility) that "His sheep" will hear His voice and will follow Him, and that He already knows all of His sheep; That is why He can say "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep" to those people.

Those are all very nice facts and true -- but don't prove your point that they are called "sheep" even before they hear.

You can see the doctrine of "election" (some are His sheep and some are not) (also "election" in verse 29) and "effectually calling" (His sheep will hear His voice and will follow Him).

Well, they are "elect" if they are saved, yes. Are they not elect if they haven't yet heard? And as to hearing and following -- yeah, we all hear and follow after we are saved. You have not established that any hear and follow BEFORE they are saved because they are elect, though.

The doctrine of perseverence is found in verse 28: "I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."[/quote] See, now what I see is Jesus preserving them -- not them perservering. Where are you seeing the sheep perservering on their own??

The reason for the persevernce is given in verse 29-30: "My Father, who has given them to Me (election again), is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Col 1:13-14 is when and why God gives believers to His Son -- "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness [justified/saved us], and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: " Do you say we are in Christ's kingdom BEFORE we are saved?

skypair

 

[npetreley]

You "heard" from someone's exoosition of scripture and didn't know what it was. I can guarantee you didn't "dig it out" of scripture yourself.

Are you psychic, now? You can guarantee someone got it from exposition rather than the Bible? Wow, that's almost as arrogant as "if you disagree with me you blaspheme the Holy Spirit".

If so, you should be an unhappy medium because you're wrong, at least about me. I got all of my ideas about predestination and election from scripture. I got these ideas IN SPITE OF the constant false exposition about free will in churches today. I had to seek out teaching to the contrary, AFTER I had already drawn my conclusions from scripture.

 

[webdog]

Are you psychic, now? You can guarantee someone got it from exposition rather than the Bible? Wow, that's almost as arrogant as "if you disagree with me you blaspheme the Holy Spirit".

If so, you should be an unhappy medium because you're wrong, at least about me. I got all of my ideas about predestination and election from scripture. I got these ideas IN SPITE OF the constant false exposition about free will in churches today. I had to seek out teaching to the contrary, AFTER I had already drawn my conclusions from scripture.

That would make you the first person I know that was saved as a calvinist initially.

 

[npetreley]

That would make you the first person I know that was saved as a calvinist initially.

You obviously misunderstood me.

I've told this story before, but it warrants retelling. I believed in free-will when I was saved because that's what everyone taught. When I was still a fairly young Christian, I tried to write an apologetics piece based on the principle of free-will. I couldn't finish it because I was familiar enough with the Bible that I kept catching myself contradicting the Bible while writing it. That undermined my belief in free-will choice for salvation - if I was contradicting the Bible, maybe my belief in free-will was wrong? So I studied the Bible looking for the answer to this riddle, and I found the answers -- predestination, election, monergy.

It wasn't until later that I heard a TV preacher mention Luther's "Bondage of the Will" in connection with this, and I bought a copy. Then I started buying other books on the subject. But I had already made up my mind based on Scripture.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I am not a moderator. However, I do want to point out something.

You are attributing to Skypair something that I said in response to his comments to me.

Skypair said in post #86:I responded to him by saying:
He did call me a "swine", and it was offensive. I didn't particularly think it rose to the level of involving the moderators. I used his own words to respond to him. I was trying to be tongue in cheek about it, though.

As far as calling people liars, I dont' know about that.

I am just trying to keep the record straight.

peace to youraying:

Thank you, and I stand corrected, and offer my apologies to Skypair.

 

[skypair]

Are you psychic, now? You can guarantee someone got it from exposition rather than the Bible? Wow, that's almost as arrogant as "if you disagree with me you blaspheme the Holy Spirit".

npeterely, Calvinism is the teaching of MEN. It is NOT hard to discern where those thoughts come from.

If so, you should be an unhappy medium because you're wrong, at least about me. I got all of my ideas about predestination and election from scripture. I got these ideas IN SPITE OF the constant false exposition about free will in churches today. I had to seek out teaching to the contrary, AFTER I had already drawn my conclusions from scripture.

Let me get this straight now ---- you got saved (else you wouldn't have been able to discern the "hidden wisdom of God" regarding election, 1Cor 2:6). THEN (cause you would only do this if you were "regenerated") you sought out an exposition of the gospel that taught passive, do-nothing salvation (what YOU decided scripture said) where you would obviously be "elect" based on what you had already "concluded."

Sociology has a term for that. It's called "self-fulfilling prophecy," npet. YOU decided what you wanted to find and found it. Does that make it right? For you it does. For many who have studied the same scripture, it doesn't.

BTW, I respect your salvation testimony. What I think happened thereafter was that you came under the influence of Calvinism (you are NOT alone). MANY come to think of Calvinism as a "deeper theolgy" only to find out that deeper is the abyss.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

npeterely, Calvinism is the teaching of MEN. It is NOT hard to discern where those thoughts come from.

It is the teaching of the Bible. Oh, wait, I forgot -- you have exclusive access to the Holy Spirit, so I must be blaspheming to disagree with you.