Elect does not mean "saved at birth"

[Jarthur001]

You are lumping MANY godly men into your "ignorant" comment. The minority of BELIEVERS (not humans) believe reformed theology for a reason...it's false doctrine. What you call totally depraved and what Scripture calls totally depraved are night and day.

Paul didn't want his readers ignorant, so he said this...

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What does blindness mean?

 

[webdog]

The blindness is in reference to the unbelieving jews. I don't see how that pertains to Spirit indwelled believers.

 

[Jarthur001]

The blindness is in reference to the unbelieving jews. I don't see how that pertains to Spirit indwelled believers.

Not who was blind...but what does it mean? ok....it is talking about the Jews I agree

let me ask again....

what does the word "blindness" mean? The Jews were blinded, but who placed the blindness on them? Who makes sure the blindness stays in place "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."..?

 

[skypair]

skypair. Your personal attacks on me are nothing more than an attempt to distract from the obvious intellectual and theological thrashing you are taking.

Canady -- I want to apologize to you. I didn't at any time mean to question your salvation -- just to have you do a "checkup from the neckup," as one pastor has said.

You obviously win in the theological arena just as you say. I could never give you proof of free will -- you have basically "de-proofed" all texts whether alone or with accompanying remarks. Are you perchance a pastor or theologian?

Anyway, I guess you missed my remark about ME not being able to see your pearls on account of MY snout. You needn't get so uptight. We'll get you around to reality sooner or later. :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

what does the word "blindness" mean? The Jews were blinded, but who placed the blindness on them? Who makes sure the blindness stays in place "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."..?

Rom 11:9 -- "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Appears to me that BELIEVERS saw, but UNBELIEVERS were blinded. God gave them over to their WORKS, their "table"/ritual, which they desired more than Christ.

Rom 11:13-14 -- "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them." They could still "see"/believe according to Paul and be saved by emulating Paul. The blindness doesn't "stay in place" for all.

Rom 11:25 -- "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." They won't be believers until they see their "sign." Not the last Gentile saved but all the Gentiles be taken in the rapture! Then the jealousy will be complete Rom 10:17-20 -- "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? ... But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

How will they see, know? Via the mystery of the rapture. Imagine seeing that the Gentiles were right and were taken just as "their testament" said!

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Appears to me that BELIEVERS saw, but UNBELIEVERS were blinded. God gave them over to their WORKS, their "table"/ritual, which they desired more than Christ.

What does the word blind mean? Does it mean they could not see with their eyes the flowers? Does it mean that they must walk with a seeing eye dog? What does being blind mean in this passage?

The blindness doesn't "stay in place" for all.

Yes....you are right. But it is in place for some. Who placed the blindness on them? Who made in stay in place? What is the blindness?

 

[webdog]

what does the word "blindness" mean?

It's a simile given. They were blinded to the truth, that Jesus was the Messiah. The blindness is the same as a hardened heart.

 

[Jarthur001]

It's a simile given. They were blinded to the truth, that Jesus was the Messiah. The blindness is the same as a hardened heart.

1st..congrads on post number 7000

I agree that they were blinded to the truth.
Now do you feel this blindness is still in place?

 

[canadyjd]

Canady -- I want to apologize to you. I didn't at any time mean to question your salvation -- just to have you do a "checkup from the neckup," as one pastor has said.

Fair enough. I accept your apology and take your advice. Having a varified IQ of nearly 100, I have to be careful not to get too prideful.:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

1st..congrads on post number 7000

I agree that they were blinded to the truth.
Now do you feel this blindness is still in place?

I don't believe the fullness of the gentiles has taken place yet...so yes.

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't believe the fullness of the gentiles has taken place yet...so yes.

After nearly 2000 years, those that in the beginning that you feel harden their hearts are now dead and gone. But a Jewish person is still born into this blindness that will stay in place until the fullness of the gentiles has taken place. This means as you have will said that the Jewish people as a whole are blinded to the truth of the gospel. Just as the passage says....

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This is not to say that all Jewish people are blinded to the truth. Paul makes this point very clear. For the verse says blindness in part. So when a Jewish person is born, who is blinded..and who is elect? The passage tells us in verse 7..

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

In fact we see this true outside of the text in the life of Paul. Paul was killing believes when salvation came to him.
Is not this election just as the text says? Some were elected...some were blinded. God did the electing and the blinding.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

So today, it is God that choses who among the Jewish people should be blinded who will be His elect.....is this not right?

 

[skypair]

What does the word blind mean?

Spiritual blindness. Unable to see anything but the gospel that they reject.

Yes....you are right. But it is in place for some. Who placed the blindness on them? Who made in stay in place? What is the blindness?

It's like Pharoah, Ja --- God provided a light, they rejected, they brought it on themselves because God raised the issue.

We like to consider God the "First Cause" but in causing anything, He only offers what is good -- and that is NOT "blindness" but "light." So when it says that God blinded them, it is because they closed their eyes to His light.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Spiritual blindness. Unable to see anything but the gospel that they reject.

It's like Pharoah, Ja --- God provided a light, they rejected, they brought it on themselves because God raised the issue.

We like to consider God the "First Cause" but in causing anything, He only offers what is good -- and that is NOT "blindness" but "light." So when it says that God blinded them, it is because they closed their eyes to His light.

skypair

If this blindness is the very same as Pharoah "harden heart"...then it is clear God was behind it. Romans 9 says this is the very reason God made Pharoah.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up (the I here is God), that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he (he here is God) mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

So in fact we could write the verse...
"Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this purpose or reason have I the Great God of all, made you king of Egypt, You are Pharaoh, so that I might show my power in your life, and so that my almighty name might be declared over all the earth. Therefore..God has mercy on whom God wills to have mercy and God will harden the heart to whom God wills to harden the heart"

Then as I asked Webdog...we must deal with the fact that this happened 2000 years ago, and those that made that "rejecting choice" are long past dead and gone, abd still the blindness remains. Right?

Now remember...as seen above not all are blinded. WHY?

Does not the passage tell us why?

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Some were elected...some were blinded. Who but God did the electing and the blinding? None...it was all God. And this was placed on those from the Jewish nation that came after the ones that had rejected God 2000 years ago.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Is not this election? The jewish person that was born blind to the truth 500 years ago, was not the same that caused God to blind the nation 2000 years ago. right?

 

[webdog]

So today, it is God that choses who among the Jewish people should be blinded who will be His elect.....is this not right?

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[skypair]

Now remember...as seen above not all are blinded. WHY?

Because the passage speaks of a nation, not of individuals.

Some were elected...some were blinded. Who but God did the electing and the blinding? None...it was all God. And this was placed on those from the Jewish nation that came after the ones that had rejected God 2000 years ago.

I don't see this. Were the blind not rejectors of God's word? Did God make them reject it? That would be God working against His own kingdom, wouldn't it? And if all were born blind/sinners, how is it some received sight? Doesn't an acorn always become an oak tree?

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I rest my case.

 

[webdog]

You asked who blinds them...I supplied the answer. Hardly dodging anything.

I see you edited your answer while I was replying. I have no idea what you are talking about now...

 

[Jarthur001]

Because the passage speaks of a nation, not of individuals.

I don't see this. Were the blind not rejectors of God's word? Did God make them reject it? That would be God working against His own kingdom, wouldn't it? And if all were born blind/sinners, how is it some received sight? Doesn't an acorn always become an oak tree?

skypair

today?

why is the Jewish nation still blinded. The passage clearly tells us they are blinded. The passage is speaking of a nation..i agree. What is the nation blinded from?

2nd...

And if all were born blind/sinners, how is it some received sight?

The passage tells us....

ELECTION....ding ding ding

my oh my...i think he got it. wow......will the blessings ever stop???

Go skypair, Go skypair, Go skypair...U De man....

 

[Jarthur001]

You asked who blinds them...I supplied the answer. Hardly dodging anything.

I see you edited your answer while I was replying. I have no idea what you are talking about now...

I rest my case...for you have no reply.

all you did was change passages. we can talk about that passage if you want.

but 1st....back to romans 11


will you dodge again? I say yes...

 

[webdog]

i believe providing Scripture was a reply.

You don't let Bible interpret Bible? Truly sad....

No wonder you believe the way you do. If you want truth, you will examine Scripture...ALL Scripture. If you want systematic theology, you will keep doing what you are doing with your "proof texts"