No, as the Chrsitian can for some strange reason get wrapped up into satanic theology such as word of Faith/healtha nd wealth/m/5 fold ministries, but will never be satan!
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Elect or Non-elect?
- Thread starter Pastor_Bob
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Well if everyone is totally depraved and going to hell. Calvinist-God already did Satan's job.
Satan just has to eat popcorn and watch. Lay on the ground........now try to fall.
Ephesians 1
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
The idea is you get elected before you were born. If you put Calvinist Glasses on "IN HIM" is not there.
Ephesians 2
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
But we get a story about when we were not IN HIM. No promise. no hope. WITH OUT.
"BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS" Implies we were not in Christ.
If you were IN CHRIST before the foundation, how did you fall out? If you can fall out once can you fall out again?
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% with this statement.
Perhaps he should have expressed it this way instead:
The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel
Cornelius the Centurion
The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel
The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel
The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel
Why are you trolling? RevMitchell began with a false a priori assumption. You say you agree with that then post a bunch of trolling that has nothing to do with the point.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
No, sir. Please reread with what I said I agreed. It certainly wasn't that RevMitchell began with a false a priori assumption. Quite the opposite.
It has everything to do with the point.
Here is a break down of the discussion you are having so much trouble following.
If you have having a problem following the flow of the discussion please feel free to ask for clarification.
I then quoted his statement and made my comment:
To which you said:
So, you are 100% in agreement with my statement that his statement was a false premise.
Well then you got lost along the way.
No, none of what you posted had anything to do with the point that RevMitchell was claiming, "If the non-elect (as calvies define it) are born blind and cannot under any circumstances understand the word unless God first regenerates them." That is a false premise. I think it was Reformed who posted an excellent rebuttal to that false assertion. The lost understand the words, and even the concept, of the Gospel. They cannot "understand" it in the sense of spiritual appropriation. Nobody in this thread has ever claimed that the lost "cannot under any circumstances understand the word." That is a false premise and you agreed with me that it was a false premise.
If you have having a problem following the flow of the discussion please feel free to ask for clarification.
You should study quantum mechanics because your still using your clock on God.
Your Joe never accepts or rejects the Gospel. God does the repenting.
A free Gift doesn't come from a gun to the head especially after shooting a guy next to you.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Non-elect.
Luke 18:11-15 is a parallel passage to Matthew 13:3-9 and Mark 4:3-9.
Here is the passage in Luke:
" Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience." ( Luke 8:11-15 )
Four types of "believers", only one of which is the real thing:
1) The way side people hear, but are unregenerate tares and soon forget the word.
2) Those on the rock, "believe", but have not been regenerated. When trials come, they fall away because they do not have the Holy Spirit to keep them by His power ( 1 Peter 1:5 )
3) That which fell among thorns are those who "believed", but the world proves stronger and they then fall away. Again, no power and no Spirit ( Romans 8:9 )
4) The good ground signifies a changed heart and a changed mind towards Christ. Having an honest and good heart ( because God "tilled the ground" and then used the "planted seed" to call His children through the Spirit ), they keep the seed, it "germinates", grows and brings forth spiritual fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ) in its time ( Psalms 1 ).
Matthew 13:18-23:
" Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
1) The way side hearer.
2) No root. Becomes offended at God when trials and persecution arise, and falls away.
3) Unfruitful due to the cares of this world.
4) Hears, understands and brings forth spiritual fruit in quantity.
The first 3 are tares, the last is wheat:
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
39 the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 13:36-43 )
God's children cannot fall away.
The children of the devil profess Christ, but in works deny Him... they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and they fall away in times of trials, temptation and persecution.
Only the elect are saved;
The rest eventually show forth who they really are during tests of faith...
The "non-elect", also known as the "goats", unbelievers, and the children of disobedience.
They were sown among the elect by their father, the devil.
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Rockson
Active Member
This creates a problem for Calvs. Notice the thing that saves people. The word of God. The gospel IS the power of God. 1 Pt 1:24 states,
"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 Pt 1:24
Not born again by some type of mysterious power Calv call regeneration which they don't connect to the word but just something God does on the side even before hearing they gospel Regeneration IS a biblical truth but not the way Calvs define it. They say God regenerates their heart....now they'd be willing to hear and understand the gospel.
You don't see this in the above. If it took regeneration to believe and be saved before you even heard the gospel why would the devil want to take the word out of their hearts? Are Calvs saying God would say, "Oh no I put regeneration into their hearts and I made a mistake!" ???? There would be no concern about these people being saved if the word alone didn't bring salvation. The devil could have just relaxed sit backed and watch the eventual slaughter. Don't see him doing that though. He desperately does everything he can to get the word out! Why. It says why! To keep them from becoming saved!
Well if they can't then why does it address the potential fall aways as brothers in Jm5:19 who were in DANGER of death? If they weren't in danger of death than why did he say they were.
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.… James 5:19
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Characteristic condescension - very unnecessary.
It would appear that you, my brother, are having a bit of trouble following this time. I said "I agree 100% with this statement." What statement? "When you start with a false premise you will always arrive at a false conclusion." That is a true statement. If I, you, or anyone else starts with a false premise, we will always arrive at a false conclusion. With that statement, I am in 100% agreement.
Characteristic condescension - very unnecessary.
How can that be? You oft quote I Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
By "appropriation" do you mean that they have to do something with this cursory understanding in order to have their eyes opened?
Faulty conclusion - please see above.
Characteristic condescension - very unnecessary.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Thank you, brother, for showing us how to respond to those with whom we may disagree. Your spirit is infectious and convicting even though we do not see eye to eye on this issue.
The glaring difficulty I have with this point of view is, if this individual is non-elect, why would the devil have to "come and take away the word out of their hearts lest they should believe and be saved"?
If they are non-elect, wouldn't salvation be off the table for them regardless of what the devil did or didn't do?
37818
Well-Known Member
If it refers to one's final condition: Then the non-elect. (see Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Mark 1:15; Romans 1:16).
Would any of you brethren show me any thing anyone did in these verses to say there were elected by what they did?... Brother Glen
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rockson
Active Member
Nope sorry, but you've just made this up for you're forced to acknowledge that men YES do understand the concept of the gospel. That's self-evident just ask any atheist (who does know anything about Christianity) do Christians believe in a Christ who was made a substitute . They'd answer YES. Well why couldn't they understand as well the basic concept of Christians saying they need to appropriate by faith and believe and receive his grace. Sure they do!
They understood it when Billy Graham used to say you need to make a decision for Christ or act on his word. They may have chose not to do so but they understood what he meant. The very fact that they'd say, "Well I don't want to do that" proves that they did. Well you say yes they understood all these other things but appropriating? Well you say they need some special revelation outside of the gospel to understand reach out and receive?
Have to say nonsense and dangerous too by the way....for one hearing the gospel might say,"Well God has got to give me that special spiritual appropriation understanding because I know what it means in the natural to appropriate but how do I know I understand it in the spirit?" Sorry but this type of dreaming up obscure meaningless things can confuse a dear sinner wanting to come to Christ. Why should you put stumbling blocks in their way?
Bob,
Good afternoon. Forgive me for jumping in, but I recently had this discussion with someone and it is fresh on my mind.
The parable of the sower has close ties to 2 Corinthians 4.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
The purpose of Jesus' parable of the sower in Luke 8 has nothing to do with predestination or election. It is all about the fruit of the Gospel in the lives of those who have been truly saved. The fulcrum of this parable is verse 15:
Luke 8:15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. (emphasis mine)
Verse 15 really is the point of the parable. As to the devil taking away the word from their heart, it is a true statement. The Monergist believes that sinners serve the prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2), also known as Satan or the devil. That Satan would keep them in darkness to the truth is not surprising. It is according to his nature. Luke 8:15 infers that those who have the word snatched from them lack "an honest and good heart". In other words, they are still in their sins. This is the same type of person Paul writes about in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
No, Bob. A characteristic failure on your part to understand what the thread is all about.
Yes, based on what I was responding to. But I should have expected you to take my statement out of context. You do that a lot. Even with the bible.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
From my perspective, it is "off the table" from God's point of view.
But from my understanding of Scripture over the years, Satan does it "just in case..."
I once thought that there was the "possiblity" that a man could believe outside of God directly causing it, but I no longer do.
Why?
From Scripture, we know that Lucifer wants to be like the Most-High ( Isaiah 14:12-14 ).
We also know that he hates God's children ( 1 Peter 5:8 ) and that he is their accuser ( Revelation 12:9-10 ).
He opposes anything that is God's.
So, in accordance with his tactics, he seeks to blind men to the truth of the Gospel ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ) in his opposition.
God is the only one who can open someone's eyes, spiritually ( Acts of the Apostles 26:18 ), and He only does that for His children:
" For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." ( 2 Corinthians 4:6 ).
God overcomes the darkness of sin in the believer's nature, with the light of truth and regeneration ( Ephesians 1:18, 1 Peter 2:9, Titus 3:4-7 ), so that we are no longer blind to the truth of the Gospel.
We who were once living in darkness, now have the light of life.
That is only ever said with respect to true believers, not tares.
Spiritual blindness, Satan's denying men the truth of the Gospel, reprobation, etc are all Biblical facts; and, as I see it, because of this "complication", mankind is totally unable to come to Christ without being...
1) Drawn ( John 6:44 )
2) Un-blinded to the truth of God's words, or "called". ( Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:24 )
3) Elect ( Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:23, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 10:26, etc )
There are threads about this subject that date farther back.
God bless you sir.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your thoughts. I'll definitely take a closer look at the passages you reference.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
That's interesting since I started this thread.
I'm not even going to dignify this personal attack with a response.
37818
Well-Known Member
Utilyan, what is so funny?
Matthew 7:21-23 refer to the non-elect.
2 Corinthians 4:3 refers to the non-elect.
Those who believe the gospel are of the elect.
The election is God's. Not our doing (Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 2:8-9).
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